Open Heart
Well-known member
Yes, that is what I'm saying. AGAIN the covenant went through Isaac and Jacob, not Ishmael or Esau. Do you need for me to say it again?
Lost Tribes
- Thread starter Open Heart
- Start date
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
So, Abraham is a Jew I’m told. You will not find support for this in the Torah, nor anywhere else in scripture. The name of the learned scholar(s?) who, in accordance with oral Torah, proclaimed this to be so is not known. It is true because it is tradition.
What did Yeshua Hamashiach have to say about the traditions of His day?
Are there any present-day traditions that began in Babylon and are still held as holy today?
What did Yeshua Hamashiach have to say about the traditions of His day?
Are there any present-day traditions that began in Babylon and are still held as holy today?
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
I’m told that Jew, a word that didn’t exist until sometime after the birth of Judah from whose name it is derived, describes Abraham, Judah’s great-grandfather. [Abe was the subject of the first grandfather clause. Why? Because.]
This is true because certain people believe it to be true. Logic and reason have no place in the study of Torah it seems. It is true because….. TRADITION!
Where is Tevye when you need him?
This is true because certain people believe it to be true. Logic and reason have no place in the study of Torah it seems. It is true because….. TRADITION!
Where is Tevye when you need him?
Hawkeye
Active member
Here is what the opposition argument is saying.....in a nutshell.
My parents are Norwegian so that makes me 100% Norwegian as well. We all live in Norway where almost 100% of the population is also Norwegian.
My third cousin, Lars (and his small clan) ...decides to move to Italy (for whatever reason) and obtains Italian citizenship....and even leaves his Lutheran heritage to become a Catholic.
So.....from this point onward there is no longer a country of Norway because "lars" has turned them into Italians! I can no longer call myself Scandanavian because I'm now Italian.
Now if this makes sense to you......move to the back of the class. This is how silly things can become when folks twist scripture around in an attempt to justify their incorrect biblical positions.
There is a reason Yahweh made two distinct nations after the sins of Solomon and to try and erase that inspired and holy purpose is to deny His word. Are we taught that Ezekiel's Valley of Dry Bones still speaks of the separation of David`a Israel into two separate nations.....or not? This book was written from the Babylonian captivity.....and spoke of future events.
The major problem with this scenario is the complete lack of biblical direction and scripture to back it up. It is entirely and totally made up by folks who don't like it the way Yahweh intended.
American Gothic
Well-known member
is the New covenant cut with the house of Israel and the house of Judah...or not? Jeremiah 31
(and it is not made with The Church)
American Gothic
Well-known member
Mista Dobbalina Mista Bob Dobbalina Mista Bob Dobbalina if you could...
what is Wrong with Jews viewing Abraham as the first Jew?
and Gentiles affirming the Gentile components to Abraham's story and his Promises that include us?
Mistamistamistadobbalina
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
There’s nothing wrong with an opinion when put forth as just that, an opinion. There’s no scriptural support for your belief.
No one is going to suffer eternal torment for this error, but error it is.
American Gothic
Well-known member
If the term "Jews" was put on them by others, and they they chose to apply it to themselves,
what determines how they can apply it?
I'm Scandinavian/some German American and Abraham is called the Father of my Faith,
even though Adam, Enoch, Noah, Shem, etc had the same Faith. Wasssupwidat?
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American Gothic
Well-known member
I haven't really - I just personally don't see an issue with Jews using the term for Abraham.
"Israel" " the Jewish people, or nation" for themselves, same
You like Del? Hip Hop?
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Hawkeye
Active member
The simple reason it has become an issue on this thread is because it is biblically incorrect. The reason many folks refer to all the Israelites as Jews ......and even great grandfather, Abraham.....is just talmudic tradition.
It is my belief that biblical conversations and debates should follow scripture. The fact that it has not (in many cases) has led to error......sometimes great error affecting one's theology.
If you feel like calling Abraham a Jew......go for it. Just don't try and tell knowledgable folks he was one.
Abraham was a Hebrew, descending from Eber, et.al which also made Ismael, Issac and his other progeny Hebrew as well. Jacob, his grandson was also Hebrew and became father of the Israelites......he himself not being one.
Scripture defines Jews as being descended from Judah.....as do many early church writings. So.....it is correct to call Judah a Hebrew, an Israelite and a Jew.
American Gothic
Well-known member
Anna was from the tribe of Asher Luke 2
how does Scripture "define" her? not a Jew?
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
Anna is defined as “of the tribe of Asher”.
Asher is a son of Jacob and patriarch of one of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Anna is a Hebrew and an Israelite.
eta: not a Jew
Hawkeye
Active member
Where does it say she was a Jew?
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
It doesn’t. Just putting a period to AG’s question.
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
I enjoy the company of funky homosapiens.
Earth, Wind, Fire, and Funk are the Four primary elements.
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
Do you believe the Old and New Testaments to be the word of YHWH? Some of the best scholars on CARM are atheists and I see nothing on your page to indicate where you stand on the question. A little clarity would help before going any further.
American Gothic
Well-known member
Do you think Israel/the Jewish people have a claim on Abraham as the Father
of their nation that is unique and distinct from the other nations that came from him?
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
Abraham was first and foremost designated the Father of many nations. The very name Abraham means Father of many nations.
The Jews have claim to Abraham as one of the many nations. I suggest to you that the unique claim of the Jewish people is their claim to YHWH, the Father of All. As those who were chosen by YHWH, wouldn't you consider that the greatest legacy of all?
Now maybe you could answer my question...?
American Gothic
Well-known member
Part of the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12, 13, some 15 & 17) is that a particular Nation would come from Abraham
thru Isaac, the son of promise - the nation that the promised savior would come from -
so IMO, Israel does have a unique claim to Abraham as their father distinct from the others.
The are the only Nation miraculously created and preserved by God.
The Jewish people calling Abraham their father and maybe viewing him as the first "Jew" to me seems....better, for lack of better word
than the Arab nations calling Abraham their father and considering him an Arab.
Israel also has a claim on the Land per the covenant of Deuteronomy 29&30.
I just don't answer "do you even believe the Bible" type questions, sorry.
Dr. Feelgood
I'd bet Del! could
still make it Funk...real good
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Bob Dobbalina
Active member
Well I suppose we’re done then.