Lost Tribes

[Hawkeye]

Part of the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12, 13, some 15 & 17) is that a particular Nation would come from Abraham
thru Isaac, the son of promise - the nation that the promised savior would come from -
so IMO, Israel does have a unique claim to Abraham as their father distinct from the others.
The are the only Nation miraculously created and preserved by God.

The Jewish people calling Abraham their father and maybe viewing him as the first "Jew" to me seems....better, for lack of better word
than the Arab nations calling Abraham their father and considering him an Arab.

Israel also has a claim on the Land per the covenant of Deuteronomy 29&30.

I just don't answer "do you even believe the Bible" type questions, sorry.

Dr. Feelgood
I'd bet Del! could
still make it Funk...real good

You don't think that Muslims also believe they have a unique claim as well?

Let's look at some "Islamic" facts............

Muslims believe that Islam is the actual religion practiced by Abraham.....
His name appears in the Koran 69 times.....
The Koran lists all of the events of Abraham that the bible lists and even goes further back listing the smashing of the idols of Abraham's father...
The Muslims consider Abraham the friend of God as well.....
Abraham is credited with establishing the Kaaba in Mecca.....

You might get some arguments from your Arab friends as to who has a more unique relationship with Father Yahweh.

Now.....I personally agree with you that the Nation of Israel (Judah included) has a more profound relationship with The Great God as well because of the unfolding of prophecy that we read throughout scripture........but I also realize that Abraham was to be the father of many nations that would be blessed through him.

 

[American Gothic]

the Nation of Israel (Judah included) has a profound relationship with The Great God as well because of the unfolding of prophecy that we read throughout scripture........but I also realize that Abraham was to be the father of many nations that would be blessed through him.

Agree, just highlighted something you said I think is important.

Israel is the only nation to come from Abraham that has a promise made that they will always exist - that is unique.
Israel has a promise that after they are spread all over the Earth, they would be brought back to the Land - that is unique.
It was prophesied that Hebrew language would be brought back.
Israel has a promise of eventual National salvation -
God didn't promise that to the Norwegians.

I view Ishmael as a believer - one doesn't have to be Israel to be saved.
A Samaritan can be saved, and doesn't even need the law of Moses to be so.
Anyone can be blessed thru Abraham and his promises, thru Faith in Messiah.

There still are physical promises to Israel/the Jewish people specifically, that God will keep with them.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

You don't think that Muslims also believe they have a unique claim as well?

Let's look at some "Islamic" facts............

Muslims believe that Islam is the actual religion practiced by Abraham.....
His name appears in the Koran 69 times.....
The Koran lists all of the events of Abraham that the bible lists and even goes further back listing the smashing of the idols of Abraham's father...
The Muslims consider Abraham the friend of God as well.....
Abraham is credited with establishing the Kaaba in Mecca.....

You might get some arguments from your Arab friends as to who has a more unique relationship with Father Yahweh.

Now.....I personally agree with you that the Nation of Israel (Judah included) has a more profound relationship with The Great God as well because of the unfolding of prophecy that we read throughout scripture........but I also realize that Abraham was to be the father of many nations that would be blessed through him.

Ok, you make a good argument for the unique claim of both Muslims and the Nation of Israel(Judah included) to…what exactly? A more profound relationship with YHWH?

What is the point of establishing a hierarchy of blessing? What does this special relationship mean in the here and now in light of the fact that the Nation of Israel (Judah mostly excluded…?) is lost among the Gentle nations, to be gathered together again at some future date?

Is this still about wanting to call Abraham a Jew despite the distinctions made in scripture?
I’m sincerely confused as to the point of what seems to be no more than a unit-measuring contest, a most base concern bizarrely raised to the level of Biblical exegesis.

 

[Hawkeye]

Ok, you make a good argument for the unique claim of both Muslims and the Nation of Israel(Judah included) to…what exactly? A more profound relationship with YHWH?

What is the point of establishing a hierarchy of blessing? What does this special relationship mean in the here and now in light of the fact that the Nation of Israel (Judah mostly excluded…?) is lost among the Gentle nations, to be gathered together again at some future date?

Is this still about wanting to call Abraham a Jew despite the distinctions made in scripture?
I’m sincerely confused as to the point of what seems to be no more than a unit-measuring contest, a most base concern bizarrely raised to the level of Biblical exegesis.

I guess the point I was attempting to make is.......if it is biblically correct to call Abraham the father of many nations it would be difficult to call him a Jew......as well.

If middle eastern folks would insist he was (is) an Arab.....this would be just as silly.

 

[Open Heart]

I guess the point I was attempting to make is.......if it is biblically correct to call Abraham the father of many nations it would be difficult to call him a Jew......as well.

Well, see, that's where you hve your problem. You don't see how he can be the father of many nations, and also othe first Jew. But both of those statements are true.

 

[American Gothic]

The symbol of the Abrahamic covenant is circumcision.
Israel continued with that, I'm not sure about the Ishmaelite or Edomite nations.
That was what showed you were in that special relationship with Abraham's God.
He would be called "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob".

Gentiles can be spiritually blessed by being brought near to Israel -
they can be grafted to the Olive tree (the place of blessing).
They are told to keep their eyes on and watch what is going on with the Fig tree.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

Repeating an unsupported assertion does nothing to validate it.

 

[Open Heart]

Repeating an unsupported assertion does nothing to validate it.

Learn from your own words.

 

[Hawkeye]

Repeating an unsupported assertion does nothing to validate it.

The sons of Noah began the table of nations [Genesis 6:10]. Everyone on this earth is descended from these three men.......Ham, Shem or Japheth.

From tradition many folks believe that only the Jews are considered "Semites".....but stop and think. Close to one third of human population are probably Semites.....descended from Shem. Many people are Semites because their lineage is not from Ham.....or Japheth.

Shem was the progenitor of all Semites, Eber, the progenitor of all Hebrews, Jacob, the progenitor of all Israelites.........and Judah, the progenitor of all Jews.

Abraham is identified in scripture as Hebrew [Genesis 14:13] and was also a Semite.....from Shem. The word Hebrew means "from across the river (Euphrates)".

His sons would also be Semites and Hebrews as well as anyone down line from him. He could never be called Jewish because he lived and died before the term came about.

Anyone down line from Ham or Japheth could never be called a Semite or a Hebrew......or become one. But......they could become a Jew. There is the dichotomy in which tradition has confused most folks because the term, Jew........ has both a ethnic as well as a religious connotation to it.

I'll go deeper in the next post.

 

[Open Heart]

Is this still about wanting to call Abraham a Jew despite the distinctions made in scripture?

You can repeat this as often as you like. Repetition is no substitute for a valid arguement, which you do not have.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

You can repeat this as often as you like. Repetition is no substitute for a valid arguement, which you do not have.

I’ll say it one last time: we’re done. I’m thoroughly uninterested in your Babylonian propaganda. You can have the last word; twist it however you will. You’re only fooling yourself.

 

[Open Heart]

I’ll say it one last time: we’re done. I’m thoroughly uninterested in your Babylonian propaganda. You can have the last word; twist it however you will. You’re only fooling yourself.

If you don't want to hear what Jews have to say, then why come into this forum? This is where we Jews hang out.

 

[Hawkeye]

I’ll say it one last time: we’re done. I’m thoroughly uninterested in your Babylonian propaganda. You can have the last word; twist it however you will. You’re only fooling yourself.

They are simply controlled by the Tamudic traditions they have learned from childhood.

Consider.....the Kingdom of Judah went into captivity in Babylon as a nation......but 70 years later they had become a religion........Judaism. They were heavily influenced by regulations, doctrines and liturgy that did not exist in the Kingdom.

Anyone who would embrace this new teaching could now call themselves a Jew [Esther 8:15-17]. The folks here who converted may have not even been Semetic......being from Medo-Persia.

How about Ashkanazi Jews which comprise much of modern Jewry....Sephardic being the other major part. Why do they use the name, Ashkanaz? Is it territorial.....or ethic? There is much debate among honest folks........but the fact remains......you cannot become a Semite, you cannot become a Hebrew.....but you can become a Jew.

Genesis 10:2-3.

 

[Open Heart]

They are simply controlled by the Tamudic traditions they have learned from childhood.

Actually I was born into a fundamentalist Christian home. And I was a Christian most my life, so, no you can't blame my upbringing for seeing that Jews have the better argument.

 

[Hawkeye]

Actually I was born into a fundamentalist Christian home. And I was a Christian most my life, so, no you can't blame my upbringing for seeing that Jews have the better argument.

I too ......have much disagreement with Christian "fundamentalism". Tell me some of your points.....and we'll see if we agree.

 

[Harel13]

There is much debate among honest folks

Actually, honest folk don't debate this. "Ashkenazi", "Sefaradi", "Temani", "Etiopi", "Krimchaki", "Cochini", and many other titles refer to where different Jewish communities settled. The titles are generally used to denote the differences in customs.

 

[Hawkeye]

Actually, honest folk don't debate this. "Ashkenazi", "Sefaradi", "Temani", "Etiopi", "Krimchaki", "Cochini", and many other titles refer to where different Jewish communities settled. The titles are generally used to denote the differences in customs.

......generally used......

Like I said......there is much debate with both sides looking down their noses at the other.

 

[Harel13]

Like I said......there is much debate with both sides looking down their noses at the other.

Among honest folks? There really isn't. I say this from knowledge.

 

[Hawkeye]

Among honest folks? There really isn't. I say this from knowledge.

Well we have a legitimate disagreement which cannot be resolved as you obviously would never consider folks whom I know to be forthright and very honest......to be so.......because of your stated position.

I'll leave you with......."Human knowledge is just that......human!"

C'est la Vie..........

 

[Open Heart]

I too ......have much disagreement with Christian "fundamentalism". Tell me some of your points.....and we'll see if we agree.

Weeeellll, do you want my complaints about Christianity in general, or fundamentalism in particualar?

As for my complaints about Christianity in general, please see the opening post in the thread I put up called, "Why Jews will never accept Jesus."

As for fundamentalism, I don't care for it in any of its versions, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. I don't care for how fundamentalists lie to themselves and say that their scriptures are without error, when error is easy to find. I don't like how fundamentalists take things literally that are meant to be taken figuratively. I don't like how fundamentalists reject basic findings of science. I don't like how fundamentalism tends to reject modern society (for example, rejecting whatever the current norms for modesty are). I don't like how fundamentalists tend to make women subservient and lay all sorts of rules on women that don't apply to men. And I really, really desipse how fundamentlists imagine that they are the sole practitioners of their religion, divinding the world into a very small circle of "us" and everyone else a "them."