Love and Limited Atonement

Theo1689

Well-known member
Another poster mentioned something about love in relationship to limited atonement. I can't find the post right now, but I think it's a significant thing to discuss. And it demonstrates that the idea of "unlimited atonement" comes more from rationalization than it does from Scripture.

The argument went like this:

"If limited atonement is true, then it must mean that Christ hates some people. And if we are to love all people, then that means we must be more loving than Christ. And that clearly can't be true."

Now, the problems are manifold....


1) Not one verse of Scripture was true.

2) Limited atonement does NOT mean "Christ hates some people". It simply means He doesn't give them something they don't deserve in the first place.

3) Since Scripture clearly teaches that God hates some people (Ps. 5:5, Mal. 1:2-3), this poster has the Father and the Son at cross purposes.

But the biggest problem I see is in this very strange (while probably not uncommon) idea of love.

First of all, this poster seems to think love is measured in the "quantity" of people you love. If you love more people, then you are allegedly more loving. So if we are to love "everyone", then (rationalization kicks in), God must love everyone as well.

But I think that a big part of love is the QUALITY and DEPTH of love, not just "how many" people you love.

And the irony is that this same poster admittedly hates, taunts and mocks atheists, and Calvinists.
How can someone do that they are proclaiming the love of Christ?



And here's another point to ponder..... The reason we are commanded to love everyone is not because we are more "virtuous", it's because we don't have the RIGHT to "hate" anyone. God has that right, but we don't. As much right as we might think we have to hate someone who has wronged us, we have wronged God FAR worse, and He has forgiven us, so we owe it to God, and to our fellow man, to forgive them and love them.
 

AllOfGrace

Member
And here's another point to ponder..... The reason we are commanded to love everyone is not because we are more "virtuous", it's because we don't have the RIGHT to "hate" anyone. God has that right, but we don't. As much right as we might think we have to hate someone who has wronged us, we have wronged God FAR worse, and He has forgiven us, so we owe it to God, and to our fellow man, to forgive them and love them.
That's a powerful point right there. I'd like to add a couple of other reasons to that point if I may...

- We are not allowed to hate anyone and commanded to love no matter how bad they are because if not for the grace of God, that could easily be US in the other shoes. Those people are just doing what lost people do. They are enslaved by Satan. They can't help it.

- We are commanded to love everyone and to look at no one as unsavable. The worst, most vile, hateful person that we see could be one of Christ's sheep who hasn't been born again yet. Just like Saul of Tarsus before Jesus saved him, the worst person our eyes can see could be the next trophy of God's saving grace. In fact, God could even use our love for them to be the key that opens the door to them hearing and believing the gospel. That happened with the early church Martyr's. Many Roman soldiers and wicked people saw how Christians blessed their persecutors even as they were killing them...and it drew many to believe in Christ. They wanted to have the same love and fearlessness that these Christians had because they loved even their persecutors.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Another poster mentioned something about love in relationship to limited atonement. I can't find the post right now, but I think it's a significant thing to discuss. And it demonstrates that the idea of "unlimited atonement" comes more from rationalization than it does from Scripture.

The argument went like this:

"If limited atonement is true, then it must mean that Christ hates some people. And if we are to love all people, then that means we must be more loving than Christ. And that clearly can't be true."

Now, the problems are manifold....

1) Not one verse of Scripture was true.

2) Limited atonement does NOT mean "Christ hates some people". It simply means He doesn't give them something they don't deserve in the first place.

3) Since Scripture clearly teaches that God hates some people (Ps. 5:5, Mal. 1:2-3), this poster has the Father and the Son at cross purposes.

But the biggest problem I see is in this very strange (while probably not uncommon) idea of love.

First of all, this poster seems to think love is measured in the "quantity" of people you love. If you love more people, then you are allegedly more loving. So if we are to love "everyone", then (rationalization kicks in), God must love everyone as well.

But I think that a big part of love is the QUALITY and DEPTH of love, not just "how many" people you love.

And the irony is that this same poster admittedly hates, taunts and mocks atheists, and Calvinists.
How can someone do that they are proclaiming the love of Christ?



And here's another point to ponder..... The reason we are commanded to love everyone is not because we are more "virtuous", it's because we don't have the RIGHT to "hate" anyone. God has that right, but we don't. As much right as we might think we have to hate someone who has wronged us, we have wronged God FAR worse, and He has forgiven us, so we owe it to God, and to our fellow man, to forgive them and love them.
I think we need to love because we are the way some people will get a glimpse of God. It builds relationships and allows doors to the truth to be opened. Also, we have not walked in another person shoes, so we do not know what has hurt that person etc. Some people have really awful lives. We are made in God's image:

Gen 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

This is another reason not to hate. God shows us his love even though we were not deserving, so I agree very much with your last sentence.
 

balshan

Well-known member
The big part of love is the EXTENT of love; God gave his only begotten Son to taste death for every ungodly sinful enemy of God.
You are right Love is more than words it is actions. It is how we treat others even if we are uncomfortable. Do we ensure that we are feeding the poor, providing them with health services, trying to understand why a person is behaving poorly etc. How do we respond to those people. I think it is always good to keep in mind that Jesus was called worse names than we are, that he suffered a lot and He was innocent.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Thats false.
No that true

John 3:16-18 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 12:47-48 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No that true

John 3:16-18 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 12:47-48 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Many people dont believe nor understand Jn 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

See God so loved the World by loving His Own in the World Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

That is His Own Sheep Jn 10:3-4

The Church His Body He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

And so consequently it is His Sheep, His Own Sheep who will be believing in Him Jn 10:26
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
No that true

John 3:16-18 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 12:47-48 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
So He came to save the world. Given your faulty understanding of said verse, is He saving the whole world? No one is lost?
 
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TomFL

Guest
So He came to save the world. Given your faulty understanding of said verse, is He saving the whole world? No one is lost?
Sorry you do nothing to prove faulty understanding

world does not mean the elect

read the whole passage

John 3:16-18 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

World includes all possible believers and unbelievers

i
 
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TomFL

Guest
So He came to save the world. Given your faulty understanding of said verse, is He saving the whole world? No one is lost?
Its scripture

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

do you have a problem believing scripture ?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Its scripture

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

do you have a problem believing scripture ?
So how is your failure saviour doing saving the whole world? That is His intent right? Is He batting .500?
 
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TomFL

Guest
So how is your failure saviour doing saving the whole world? That is His intent right? Is He batting .500?
First do you have a problem believing scripture

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

either you are a believer of scripture or you are not and and must rationalize it away

Second there is a further qualification

John 3:18 (ESV)
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

again either you are a believer of scripture or you are not
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
First do you have a problem believing scripture

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

either you are a believer of scripture or you are not and and must rationalize it away

Second there is a further qualification

John 3:18 (ESV)
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

again either you are a believer of scripture or you are not
Is your saviour of the world failing to actually save the world?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Is your saviour of the world failing to actually save the world?
Are you a believer of scripture

If you are there is no debate

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

either you are a believer of scripture or you are not and and must rationalize it away

Second there is a further qualification

John 3:18 (ESV)
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

again either you are a believer of scripture or you are not
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Are you a believer of scripture

If you are there is no debate

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

either you are a believer of scripture or you are not and and must rationalize it away

Second there is a further qualification

John 3:18 (ESV)
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

again either you are a believer of scripture or you are not
Hows your failure saviour doing saving the world? LOL
 
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TomFL

Guest
Hows your failure saviour doing saving the world? LOL

I did not write scripture God did but it appears you do not believe scripture

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So how will you respond when you are judged for calling Christ a failure
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
I did not write scripture God did but it appears you do not believe scripture

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So how will you respond when you are judged for calling Christ a failure
I do believe scripture. Your particular ignorant understanding of it I have a problem with.

I answered your question, your turn. Hows your saviour doing saving the whole world?
 
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TomFL

Guest
I do believe scripture. Your particular ignorant understanding of it I have a problem with.

I answered your question, your turn. Hows your saviour doing saving the whole world?
It doesn't look like you doi

and you are incapable of proving ignorance

so as I stated in two verse you apparently are unable to address

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So how will you respond when you are judged for calling Christ a failure
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
It doesn't look like you doi

and you are incapable of proving ignorance

so as I stated in two verse you apparently are unable to address

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So how will you respond when you are judged for calling Christ a failure
I answered your question. YOUR TURN How is your saviour doing at saving every last person who has ever lived?
 
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