Love and Limited Atonement

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TomFL

Guest
I do believe scripture. Your particular ignorant understanding of it I have a problem with.

I answered your question, your turn. Hows your saviour doing saving the whole world?
Sorry you never addressed the two verses

as i noted

It doesn't look like you doi

and you are incapable of proving ignorance

so as I stated in two verse you apparently are unable to address

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So how will you respond when you are judged for calling Christ a failure
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Sorry you never addressed the two verses

as i noted

It doesn't look like you doi

and you are incapable of proving ignorance

so as I stated in two verse you apparently are unable to address

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So how will you respond when you are judged for calling Christ a failure
In your theology he is a utter failure if His intent is to save the whole world. Is it?
 
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TomFL

Guest
In your theology he is a utter failure if His intent is to save the whole world. Is it?
Read what the verses state and then address

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

what do they state ?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Read what the verses state and then address

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

what do they state ?
I asked first. How is your failure saviour doing saving the whole world. Every person who has ever or will live? What's his batting average?
 
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TomFL

Guest
I asked first. How is your failure saviour doing saving the whole world. Every person who has ever or will live? What's his batting average?
Sorry no

The verses are clear and you need to address them instead of running from them

Read what the verses state and then address

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

what do they state ?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Sorry no

The verses are clear and you need to address them instead of running from them

Read what the verses state and then address

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

what do they state ?
How is your failure saviour doing trying his best to save every last person who ever lived?
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
How is your failure saviour doing trying his best to save every last person who ever lived?

Setting up an arbitrary standard that you claim God is a failure if he doesn't meet is not an argument, it's just a bald assertion.

God doesn't care about your standard of success, he cares about his.

God does fail to get what he wants in the Bible, he expressly says he does not desire the death of the wicked.
 
Another poster mentioned something about love in relationship to limited atonement. I can't find the post right now, but I think it's a significant thing to discuss. And it demonstrates that the idea of "unlimited atonement" comes more from rationalization than it does from Scripture.

The argument went like this:

"If limited atonement is true, then it must mean that Christ hates some people. And if we are to love all people, then that means we must be more loving than Christ. And that clearly can't be true."

Now, the problems are manifold....

1) Not one verse of Scripture was true.

2) Limited atonement does NOT mean "Christ hates some people". It simply means He doesn't give them something they don't deserve in the first place.

3) Since Scripture clearly teaches that God hates some people (Ps. 5:5, Mal. 1:2-3), this poster has the Father and the Son at cross purposes.

But the biggest problem I see is in this very strange (while probably not uncommon) idea of love.

First of all, this poster seems to think love is measured in the "quantity" of people you love. If you love more people, then you are allegedly more loving. So if we are to love "everyone", then (rationalization kicks in), God must love everyone as well.

But I think that a big part of love is the QUALITY and DEPTH of love, not just "how many" people you love.

And the irony is that this same poster admittedly hates, taunts and mocks atheists, and Calvinists.
How can someone do that they are proclaiming the love of Christ?



And here's another point to ponder..... The reason we are commanded to love everyone is not because we are more "virtuous", it's because we don't have the RIGHT to "hate" anyone. God has that right, but we don't. As much right as we might think we have to hate someone who has wronged us, we have wronged God FAR worse, and He has forgiven us, so we owe it to God, and to our fellow man, to forgive them and love them.
God gives the elect something we didn't deserve...which even Calvinists admit. "There is NO ONE righteous, not even one." (Rom. 3:11). THAT is grace. So God absolutely gives atonement for everyone who doesn't deserve it because NONE of us deserves it!

So since that point is wrong, and also contradicts the basic theology of Calvinists that we are NOT saved by works but by grace which is unmerited favor, then that leads to the rest of the post coming from a faulty premise.
 
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Reformedguy

Well-known member
Setting up an arbitrary standard that you claim God is a failure if he doesn't meet is not an argument, it's just a bald assertion.

God doesn't care about your standard of success, he cares about his.

God does fail to get what he wants in the Bible, he expressly says he does not desire the death of the wicked.
If His intent or purpose is to save all then how is He doing? If I say I'm going into a burning building and save every last person but come out with less than half did I fail to save the other half? A little logic and common sense goes a long way
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Here's what Theo said:

"Limited atonement does NOT mean "Christ hates some people". It simply means He doesn't give them something they don't deserve in the first place."

But God gives his elect what we don't deserve since Rom. 3:11 says "There is NO ONE righteous, not even one'. Even Paul said he was the WORST of all sinners. Calvinists ALSO claim to believe that which they call total depravity, that ALL humans are totally depraved. So Calvinists are now beginning to contradict their own theology, which is more proof that Limited Aonement is false.

So people who believe in L.A. are just engaging in talk tangles that not only disagree with Scripture, they even end up conttradicting their own theology. So it's unproductive to even engage in conversation with them. I'll just pray for them instead.

You seem to be saying that since God doesn't give some people something they don't deserve, He's not allowed to give OTHER people something they don't deserve.

And THAT is the "talk tangle".
Your criticism makes no sense.
 
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TomFL

Guest
How is your failure saviour doing trying his best to save every last person who ever lived?
Why are you fearful of dealing with scripture ?

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

what do they state ?

What is it Christ came to save ?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Why are you fearful of dealing with scripture ?

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

what do they state ?

What is it Christ came to save ?
If your understanding of world is all of mankind then how is He doing? Some He obviously fails to save right?
 
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TomFL

Guest
If your understanding of world is all of mankind then how is He doing? Some He obviously fails to save right?

Just like the industry standard lexicon BDAG

His desire is to save all He will save those who bhelieve

He does not fail in that

Your theology needs to be based on scripture

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

what do those verses state ?

What is it Christ came to save ?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
I answered your question, your turn. How is He doing saving the whole world, every person who has ever lived?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
If your understanding is world means all of mankind, every last person who has ever lived, then how is He doing? Does He fail to save some?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
If your understanding of world is all of mankind then how is He doing? Some He obviously fails to save right?

Just like the industry standard lexicon BDAG

His desire is to save all He will save those who bhelieve

He does not fail in that

Your theology needs to be based on scripture

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
what do those verses state ?
What is it Christ came to save ?

If your understanding is world means all of mankind, every last person who has ever lived, then how is He doing? Does He fail to save some?

The understanding which is supported by lexicon and context which you continually fail to address

What is your problem with basing your theology on scripture ?
 
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