Lutheran doctrine contradicts Lutheran doctrine (i.e. Exodus 12 – Passover Instituted)

Okay. But we believe and teach this:



From Frequently Asked Questions on lcms.org. So we do indeed teach this. Does your hard drive have those doctrinal statements on it? It's probably the same or similar as to what is in the link I provided below.

So,is the time of day the Paschal Lamb was slaughtered listed as doctrine in your link? Do you see it here?


But then, if you say this is not doctrine, then neither is the time of say the Paschal lamb was killed prior to the Last Supper. Do show me from the Bible where believing a certain time of day is necessary for salvation.


[Official Doctrinal Statements of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod - Years: 1847-1998

(i.e. Worship standards 1992 58, 109b - All worship is to be Christ-centered, distinguish Law and Gospel, emphasize the Gospel of forgiveness, and be faithful to the Word and in harmony with the Confessions.))]


1st) tier of Authority - Scripture's authority – Being faithful to the Word

(Matthew 19:17-19) – (i.e. … You shall not bear false witness …)
(John 4:22-24) – (i.e. … must worship in spirit and truth)
(1 John 2:21) – (i.e. … no lie is of the truth)
(Colossians 3:8-10) – (i.e. … Do not lie to one another …)

All worship is to be Christ-centered, and be faithful to the Word, including being faithful to the "doctrine of Christ". All worship in the LCMS! (Reference: (Matthew 26:2 – after two days; Leviticus 23: 5 – LORD’s Passover – “beyn ha’arbayim” - “at twilight” – position (3) in original post ; Mark 8:31 – after three days; John 4:24))

"after two days" in (Matthew 26:2 NKJV); "after three days" in (Mark 8:31 NKJV)

(12) (13) (14) - (Matthew 26:2) "after two days" - (Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4)

(14) (15) (16) (17) - (Mark 8:31) "after three days" - (Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4)

There is only one combination that works "according to the Scriptures"! (5th day of the week - 14th day of the month) The "doctrine of Christ" is always correct. (2 John 9)

Oral traditions of men “on earth” that “nullify” the Word of God “on earth”, that “quench” the Spirit “on earth”, and that “despise” all of Messiah’s fulfilled “verbatim” Resurrection prophecies “on earth”, do not matter “on earth”. (i.e. 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21) (i.e. Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine’s “truer order” – i.e. Reference: Caesar’s (decree – order – epistle) to the Church’s (West/East) bishops shortly after the first Council of Nicaea A.D. 325) In other words, the “doctrine of Caesar” is not authoritative in Christian worship “on earth”, and Christian worship is not to be Caesar-centered “on earth”.

All worship is to be in harmony with the Confessions. (i.e. Reference: The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] 271] 272])

All Lutherans are bound by Scriptural authority (Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21), and by the Lutheran Confessions’ authority - not to make public or declare for truth, anything that cannot be properly proved with sufficient clear evidence. The Key of David illustrations prove that Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine’s “truer order”, in regards to the day of the week of Christ’s most holy passion “on earth”, is a 100% lie “on earth”.

Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"! (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
The premise of the original post has been shown to be without scriptural and historical merit.

That is a misguided assertion because it doesn't reflect what occurs in translation and it ignores the footnote in the EHV.

There is not a one to one correspondence between languages. A necessary consequence of translating from a source language to a target language is going to be the use of more or less words when appropriate.

Also, here is the footnote from biblegateway, "Literally between the evenings, very likely between sunset and darkness" https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ex+12&version=EHV


I did not ignore the footnote! Why didn't one quote my entire post?

Exodus 12:6 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV) The Holy Bible, Evangelical Heritage Version®, EHV®, © 2019 Wartburg Project, Inc. All rights reserved.

6 You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of this month. Then the whole assembly of the Israelite community is to slaughter the lambs at sunset.[a]

[a] Literally between the evenings, very likely between sunset and darkness


"at sunset" is not equivalent to "at twilight"! (i.e. two separate English meanings)

In other words, Moses and the congregation of Israel, including Jesus, Jesus' family and friends, did not obey the commands of the Passover, as written by the Evangelical Heritage Version translators. (i.e. "specifically" in Exodus 12:6)


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
Okay. But we believe and teach this:
....

Alright, so what? One does realize that Augustinian friar Martin Luther believed and taught many things within the Papacy's domain in the Catholic Church, that were not true "according to the Scriptures", for many, many, years before he posted his 95 Theses in Wittenberg? (i.e. Dr. Martin Luther had a change of heart) (i.e. in Christ Jesus)

Saul had a change of heart, and became the Apostle Paul. (i.e. in Christ Jesus)

1 Corinthians 13:11 New King James Version
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Anyone can have a change of heart at anytime. It is one's choice. (i.e. in Christ Jesus)

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
I did not ignore the footnote! Why didn't one quote my entire post?

Exodus 12:6 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV) The Holy Bible, Evangelical Heritage Version®, EHV®, © 2019 Wartburg Project, Inc. All rights reserved.

6 You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of this month. Then the whole assembly of the Israelite community is to slaughter the lambs at sunset.[a]

[a] Literally between the evenings, very likely between sunset and darkness


"at sunset" is not equivalent to "at twilight"! (i.e. two separate English meanings)

In other words, Moses and the congregation of Israel, including Jesus, Jesus' family and friends, did not obey the commands of the Passover, as written by the Evangelical Heritage Version translators. (i.e. "specifically" in Exodus 12:6)


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
I hit the quote button on your post, #210, and the text of that post doesn't include any reference to the footnote.

Words have semantic range. A translator chooses words in the target language that will likely be understood by the target audience. How one person understands a particular word isn't going to be the way all others understand that same word. Welcome to the art of translation.
 
I hit the quote button on your post, #210, and the text of that post doesn't include any reference to the footnote.

Words have semantic range. A translator chooses words in the target language that will likely be understood by the target audience. How one person understands a particular word isn't going to be the way all others understand that same word. Welcome to the art of translation.

Try reading all the posts, including #205! In the Evangelical Heritage Version ("specifically" in Exodus 12:6 - It shall be called the art of mis-translation) Hundreds of English Biblical translators have already refuted the Evangelical Heritage Version translators, "specifically" in their previous English translations of Exodus 12:6. These translators knew that a "natural" sunset could never occur "between" a "natural" sunset and "end of daylight". (i.e. between two evenings) In other words, "at sunset", and "at twilight" - "between two evenings", are two separate and distinct meanings in the English language.

Exodus 12:6 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV) The Holy Bible, Evangelical Heritage Version®, EHV®, © 2019 Wartburg Project, Inc. All rights reserved.

6 You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of this month. Then the whole assembly of the Israelite community is to slaughter the lambs at sunset.[a]

[a] Literally between the evenings, very likely between sunset and darkness


The Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV 2019), is the only English translation that directly replaces the Hebrew text ("beyn ha'arbayim" - first mention Exodus 12:6), with the English translation "at sunset". In other words, the most likely English meaning ("beyn ha'arbayim" - first mention Exodus 12:6) is "at sunset", and "between the evenings" received a close second place, with a very likely English meaning of between sunset and darkness.

Repent!

Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"! (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Try reading all the posts, including #205!
If I had thought that there was new Information then I would have.
In the Evangelical Heritage Version ("specifically" in Exodus 12:6 - It shall be called the art of mis-translation) Hundreds of English Biblical translators have already refuted the Evangelical Heritage Version translators, "specifically" in their previous English translations of Exodus 12:6.
This looks like bald assertion, if not propaganda. Otherwise, where is the evidence? Or do you mean to say that other translations read differently? If that is the case then who is the English pope who unilaterally declared a canonical translation that excludes the EHV translation and note?
 
If I had thought that there was new Information then I would have.

This looks like bald assertion, if not propaganda. Otherwise, where is the evidence? Or do you mean to say that other translations read differently? If that is the case then who is the English pope who unilaterally declared a canonical translation that excludes the EHV translation and note?
Exactly BJ Bear, where is the evidence? Where is the evidence for the translation of Exodus 12:6 by the Wartburg Project translators?

All Lutherans are bound by Scriptural authority (Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21), and by the Lutheran Confessions’ authority - not to make public or declare for truth, anything that cannot be properly proved with sufficient clear evidence. (i.e. eighth commandment)

Prove that hundreds of Christian Biblical translators in our historical past had their "most likely" English translation of (Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - "at twilight") all wrong, and that the Wartburg Project translation of (Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - "at sunset") is the only "most likely" English translation that is 100% Holy Spirit "inspired".

Exactly, who is the (WELS) Pope within the Wartburg Project who unilaterally declared a canonical translation of (Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - "most likely" English translation "at sunset") that excludes all other "most likely" English translations of (Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - "at twilight")?

(i.e. "at sunset" is not the same English meaning of "at twilight" - "between the two evenings)

BJ Bear, "at sunset" is only one evening, where's the other evening? (i.e. "between the two evenings" - plural)

Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"! (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Exactly BJ Bear, where is the evidence? Where is the evidence for the translation of Exodus 12:6 by the Wartburg Project translators?
The evidence is the note, why do you ask?
All Lutherans are bound by Scriptural authority (Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21), and by the Lutheran Confessions’ authority - not to make public or declare for truth, anything that cannot be properly proved with sufficient clear evidence. (i.e. eighth commandment)
See the note.
Prove that hundreds of Christian Biblical translators in our historical past had their "most likely" English translation of (Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - "at twilight") all wrong, and that the Wartburg Project translation of (Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - "at sunset") is the only "most likely" English translation that is 100% Holy Spirit "inspired".
There is more than one way to convey an idea from a source language into a target language.
Exactly, who is the (WELS) Pope within the Wartburg Project who unilaterally declared a canonical translation of (Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - "most likely" English translation "at sunset") that excludes all other "most likely" English translations of (Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - "at twilight")?

(i.e. "at sunset" is not the same English meaning of "at twilight" - "between the two evenings)

BJ Bear, "at sunset" is only one evening, where's the other evening? (i.e. "between the two evenings" - plural)
This is just silly. How you insist on interpreting a particular English word isn't the way all other English speakers will interpret the same word, especially with an explanatory note.
 
The evidence is the note, why do you ask?

See the note.

There is more than one way to convey an idea from a source language into a target language.

This is just silly. How you insist on interpreting a particular English word isn't the way all other English speakers will interpret the same word, especially with an explanatory note.

The evidence is the original Holy Spirit "inspired" Text, "beyn ha'arbayim". Literally, "between the evenings". (i.e. plural, no note is necessary)

Exodus 12:6 Young's Literal Translation (Public Domain)
6 `And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings;

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
The evidence is the original Holy Spirit "inspired" Text, "beyn ha'arbayim". Literally, "between the evenings". (i.e. plural, no note is necessary)
That idea, for English only speakers, needs to be translated into English in a way that will commonly and readily be understood. Most translators translate it with a singular, for example, the KJV and others with evening or twilight and the EHV with sunset. The key is what those words mean to the target audience, the intended group for which it is translated.
Exodus 12:6 Young's Literal Translation (Public Domain)
6 `And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings;
That's nice but since it isn't a common English expression or mode of thinking someone has to "translate" that into a term that the common man will understand. Evening, twilight, and sunset are common English terms which can convey the same time period. Look them up in a reputable dictionary some time.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
And we have yet to be shown where believing the correct time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered prior to the Last Supper is necessary for salvation....the Bible makes no mention of it and focuses, instead, on the actual meal itself and what Jesus said and instituted during it.
 
And we have yet to be shown where believing the correct time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered prior to the Last Supper is necessary for salvation....the Bible makes no mention of it and focuses, instead, on the actual meal itself and what Jesus said and instituted during it.

Also, readers of this post have yet to be shown where the intellectual dishonesty displayed by the unrepentant Biblical scholars in their doctrine, leads to salvation "on earth". (i.e. (Hebrew/Greek linguists) within the Christian seminaries and within the Christian universities). (i.e. adding to the Holy Scriptures - "specifically" in Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - between the evenings) (i.e. (EHV 2019) "at sunset" is not the same meaning as "at twilight") If it was the same meaning, believers in Jesus Christ "on earth" wouldn't have had to wait until 2019 for the 100% Holy Spirit "inspired" Truth in how Moses and the congregation of Israel, including Jesus, and Jesus' family observed the Passover ordinances commanded by the LORD God. Is it just a coincidence that the worldwide pandemic (Covid-19) broke out during the same year that the EHV 2019 was published. Answer: NO!

One has been shown Jesus' warnings to those who wish to toss the children of God "on earth" to and fro with every wind of "convoluted" religious doctrine "on earth". (i.e. Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42) Do you believe Jesus' words here Bonnie, or was Jesus just joking? Does one believe in Jesus' words in (Matthew 26:2; Mark 8:31), or does one practice a "convoluted" doctrine that takes away from Jesus' prophecies.

It's very simple Bonnie. Answer the question in the original post. Stop the confusion caused by the Biblical scholars.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
That idea, for English only speakers, needs to be translated into English in a way that will commonly and readily be understood. Most translators translate it with a singular, for example, the KJV and others with evening or twilight and the EHV with sunset. The key is what those words mean to the target audience, the intended group for which it is translated.

That's nice but since it isn't a common English expression or mode of thinking someone has to "translate" that into a term that the common man will understand. Evening, twilight, and sunset are common English terms which can convey the same time period. Look them up in a reputable dictionary some time.

One's reply reads like expert testimony, sounds like expert testimony, but actually has no substance in "sound" Biblical exegesis.
It's very simple BJ Bear. Answer the question in the original post. Stop the confusion caused by the Biblical scholars.

Which "at sunset" are the Evangelical Heritage Version translators referring? ((EHV) Exodus 12:6 - "slaughter the lambs") (i.e. Reference: illustration in the original post)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
One's reply reads like expert testimony, sounds like expert testimony, but actually has no substance in "sound" Biblical exegesis.
It's very simple BJ Bear. Answer the question in the original post. Stop the confusion caused by the Biblical scholars.

Which "at sunset" are the Evangelical Heritage Version translators referring? ((EHV) Exodus 12:6 - "slaughter the lambs") (i.e. Reference: illustration in the original post)
Your question indicates that either you didn't look up the suggested words or that you don't have access to a reputable dictionary. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking the question.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
And we have yet to be shown where believing the correct time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered prior to the Last Supper is necessary for salvation....the Bible makes no mention of it and focuses, instead, on the actual meal itself and what Jesus said and instituted during it.
Right. The error being asserted is like that of a person trying to define the progress of an aorist when by definition it is undefined.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Also, readers of this post have yet to be shown where the intellectual dishonesty displayed by the unrepentant Biblical scholars in their doctrine, leads to salvation "on earth". (i.e. (Hebrew/Greek linguists) within the Christian seminaries and within the Christian universities). (i.e. adding to the Holy Scriptures - "specifically" in Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - between the evenings) (i.e. (EHV 2019) "at sunset" is not the same meaning as "at twilight") If it was the same meaning, believers in Jesus Christ "on earth" wouldn't have had to wait until 2019 for the 100% Holy Spirit "inspired" Truth in how Moses and the congregation of Israel, including Jesus, and Jesus' family observed the Passover ordinances commanded by the LORD God. Is it just a coincidence that the worldwide pandemic (Covid-19) broke out during the same year that the EHV 2019 was published. Answer: NO!

One has been shown Jesus' warnings to those who wish to toss the children of God "on earth" to and fro with every wind of "convoluted" religious doctrine "on earth". (i.e. Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42) Do you believe Jesus' words here Bonnie, or was Jesus just joking? Does one believe in Jesus' words in (Matthew 26:2; Mark 8:31), or does one practice a "convoluted" doctrine that takes away from Jesus' prophecies.

It's very simple Bonnie. Answer the question in the original post. Stop the confusion caused by the Biblical scholars.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
There was no "intellectual dishonesty," except in your own mind. There is no confusion, except in your own mind. No one,, except you, thinks the time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered is of any importance, when it comes to eternal life.. You are making a mountain out of an anthill.

Now, you have yet to answer MY question: where does the Bible saying knowing and believing the correct time of day the lamb was slaughtered prior to the Last Supper is NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?
 
There was no "intellectual dishonesty," except in your own mind. There is no confusion, except in your own mind. No one,, except you, thinks the time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered is of any importance, when it comes to eternal life.. You are making a mountain out of an anthill.

Now, you have yet to answer MY question: where does the Bible saying knowing and believing the correct time of day the lamb was slaughtered prior to the Last Supper is NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?
Hebrew 5:5-11 Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson (emphasis mine)

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”

6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
.
 
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There was no "intellectual dishonesty," except in your own mind. There is no confusion, except in your own mind. No one,, except you, thinks the time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered is of any importance, when it comes to eternal life.. You are making a mountain out of an anthill.

Now, you have yet to answer MY question: where does the Bible saying knowing and believing the correct time of day the lamb was slaughtered prior to the Last Supper is NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Hebrew 5:5-11 Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson (emphasis mine)

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”

6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
.
You still have NOT answered my question: WHERE does the Bible say believing in the correct time of day the paschal lamb was slaughtered prior to the Last Supper is necessary for salvation?

I am waiting.
 
You still have NOT answered my question: WHERE does the Bible say believing in the correct time of day the paschal lamb was slaughtered prior to the Last Supper is necessary for salvation?

I am waiting.

Waiting for what?

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
.
 
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