Lutheran doctrine contradicts Lutheran doctrine (i.e. Exodus 12 – Passover Instituted)

BJ Bear

Well-known member
[Official Doctrinal Statements of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod - Years: 1847-1998
(i.e. Doctrine correction 1926 11, 144 Every member of Synod has a responsibility to insist on the correction of doctrinally erroneous statements printed in official publications))]

Specifically,
(Exodus 12:6; In context: Deuteronomy 4:2 NKJV; Deuteronomy 12:32 NKJV)

Also, all Lutherans are bound by Scriptural authority (Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21), and by the Lutheran Confessions’ authority - not to make public or declare for truth, anything that cannot be properly proved with sufficient clear evidence. (i.e. Reference: The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] 271] 272]; (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21))

How is beyn ha’arbayim translated into English? (Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV - 2019))

  • “at sunset” Ex.12:6 – first mention – Lit. between the evenings, very likely between sunset and darkness
  • “at evening” Ex.16:12 – second mention
  • “at twilight” Ex.29:39 – third mention – Lit. between the evenings
  • “at twilight” Ex. 29:41 – fourth mention
  • “at twilight” Ex.30:8 – fifth mention
  • “at twilight” Lev.23:5 – sixth mention
  • “at twilight” Num.9:3 – seventh mention- Lit. between the evenings
  • “at twilight” Num.9:5 – eighth mention
  • “at twilight” Num.9:11 – ninth mention
  • “at twilight” Num.28:4 – tenth mention
  • “at twilight” Num.28:8 – eleventh mention

How is beyn ha’arbayim translated into German? (The Luther Bible 1912 is in the public domain)

  • “Abend” Ex.12:6 – first mention
  • “Abend” Ex.16:12 – second mention
  • “Abend” Ex.29:39 – third mention
  • “Abend” Ex. 29:41 – fourth mention
  • “Abend” Ex.30:8 – fifth mention
  • “Abend” Lev.23:5 – sixth mention
  • “Abend” Num.9:3 – seventh mention
  • “Abend” Num.9:5 – eighth mention
  • “Abend” Num.9:11 – ninth mention
  • “Abend” Num.28:4 – tenth mention
  • “Abend” Num.28:8 – eleventh mention
Therefore, Holy Scripture in the Lutheran Bible (Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV 2019) – (i.e. Exodus 12:6 – “sunset”)) contradicts Holy Scripture in the German Luther Bible 1912 (i.e. Exodus 12:6 – “Abend”) (i.e. a breach of “sound” Lutheran doctrine is evident)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
For the record:

The Luther Bibel you cite is a revision.

The footnote in the Evangelical Heritage Version, EHV, for Exodus 12:6 is literally between the evenings, a literal equivalent of zwischen Abends. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ex+12:6&version=EHV
 
For the record:

The Luther Bibel you cite is a revision.

The footnote in the Evangelical Heritage Version, EHV, for Exodus 12:6 is literally between the evenings, a literal equivalent of zwischen Abends. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ex+12:6&version=EHV

Naturally, a "sunset" does not literally occur between "sunset" and "darkness". One is mistaken if one thinks that this is naturally possible.

The Evangelical Heritage Version (2019) is in error, "specifically" in it's interpretation of the Holy Spirit "inspired" Text in (Exodus 12:6).

So are you implying that the Luther Bible revision (1912) is not Holy Spirit "inspired"?

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Naturally, a "sunset" does not literally occur between "sunset" and "darkness". One is mistaken if one thinks that this is naturally possible.
That would depend on how the translators and target readers define terms. Other English translations are not canonical outside their translation family traditions.
The Evangelical Heritage Version (2019) is in error, "specifically" in it's interpretation of the Holy Spirit "inspired" Text in (Exodus 12:6).

So are you implying that the Luther Bible revision (1912) is not Holy Spirit "inspired"?
There are no inspired translations and the one you refer to provides definite proof, see Genesis 4:1.
 
That would depend on how the translators and target readers define terms. Other English translations are not canonical outside their translation family traditions.

There are no inspired translations and the one you refer to provides definite proof, see Genesis 4:1.

If there are no Holy Spirit "inspired" translations, the Evangelical Heritage Version Bible (2019) provides definite proof. (i.e. "specifically" in Exodus 12:6) (i.e. suppressing the Truth in unrighteousness)

If there are no Holy Spirit "inspired" translations, who were the Bible translators guided by in their work, antichrists, popular opinion, gossip columns, hunches, different colored marbles?

If there are no Holy Spirit "inspired" translations, then why call the (EHV 2019) "Holy", or any other Bible version "Holy"?)

Why would our Heavenly Father want believers in Jesus Christ to study the Scriptures "on earth" if they are not Holy Spirit "inspired"? (i.e. Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
If there are no Holy Spirit "inspired" translations, the Evangelical Heritage Version Bible (2019) provides definite proof. (i.e. "specifically" in Exodus 12:6) (i.e. suppressing the Truth in unrighteousness)
So say someone may say who doesn't recogize that sunset is necessarily between the evenings and is footnoted in the EHV to be understood in that manner.
If there are no Holy Spirit "inspired" translations, who were the Bible translators guided by in their work, antichrists, popular opinion, gossip columns, hunches, different colored marbles?
Those items are not excluded as possibilities since translations are not God breathed as are the originals. The translators can only make do with their limited knowledge and the limits of the target languages.
If there are no Holy Spirit "inspired" translations, then why call the (EHV 2019) "Holy", or any other Bible version "Holy"?)
It is a translation of the Holy Book, the book set apart from all others by it's God breathedness.
Why would our Heavenly Father want believers in Jesus Christ to study the Scriptures "on earth" if they are not Holy Spirit "inspired"? (i.e. Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21)
Because the originals are God breathed. Everyone should be aware that those passages don't say translate the word into another language and then study the consequent work. Since there is no one to one correspondence between languages the buck stops with the original languages in which they were given.

The Spirit and grace of God in the person and work of Christ for all men is greater than man's limitations in translating, reading, or understanding the Scriptures.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Much ado about nothing. We have no official doctrine as to what time of day the Paschal lamb was killed, prior to when Jesus held His last supper with His disciples. just opinions. I mean, it is immaterial. Who cares, since we are in the newer and better covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ? The Mosaic Law has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus, along with the animal sacrifice of the lamb.
Thanks Bonnie.
 
...

Because the originals are God breathed. Everyone should be aware that those passages don't say translate the word into another language and then study the consequent work. Since there is no one to one correspondence between languages the buck stops with the original languages in which they were given.

...

So one has basically admitted that no Authority was given to man, through the God breathed original Scriptures, to translate the Word of God into any other languages. (i.e. When one attempts to translate the Word of God into other languages, then one suppresses the truth (position (3) in the original post) in unrighteousness (positions (1) and (2) in the original post) - i.e. incorporating error by man's translation process - i.e. quenching the Holy Spirit's translation, by man's translation process)

Then, by that reasoning, all believers in Jesus Christ from every nation "on earth", should have been taught Hebrew and Greek within the Church, before studying the Holy Scriptures. (i.e. what may be known of God is manifest in them - i.e. no translation of Hebrew or Greek is necessary - i.e. the Holy Spirit is their Teacher and Translator (Acts 2:5-13) - no Biblical scholars' translations into other languages are needed)


Romans 1:18-19 Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who a) suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is b) manifest c) in them, for God has shown it to them.

Footnotes: a) hold down b) evident c) among


In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
So Then, by that reasoning, all believers in Jesus Christ from every nation "on earth", should have been taught Hebrew and Greek within the Church, before studying the Holy Scriptures.
Nonsense, Christians receive the revelation of Christ but they aren't bibliolators.
So one has basically admitted that no Authority was given to man, through the God breathed original Scriptures, to translate the Word of God into any other languages.
That is a confusion of terms because all Christians have the responsibility to preach and teach to the ability which God has given them. That ability is subject to change through a growth in Grace and knowledge of Christ and a decline according to sin and it's effects. The same cannot be said of the Scriptures in their originals.
(i.e. When one attempts to translate the Word of God into other languages, then one suppresses the truth (position (3) in the original post) in unrighteousness (positions (1) and (2) in the original post) - i.e. incorporating error by man's translation process - i.e. quenching the Holy Spirit's translation, by man's translation process)
In translation one conveys the intended meaning from the source language to the target language as best as their God given ability allows. If there were a one to one correspondence between languages (there is not) then there wouldn't be a need for translation because then it would only be a matter of a common vocabulary.
Then, by that reasoning, all believers in Jesus Christ from every nation "on earth", should have been taught Hebrew and Greek within the Church, before studying the Holy Scriptures. (i.e. what may be known of God is manifest in them - i.e. no translation of Hebrew or Greek is necessary - i.e. the Holy Spirit is their Teacher and Translator (Acts 2:5-13) - no Biblical scholars' translations into other languages are needed)
Since it is your story it is appropriate that your novel have your conclusion.
Romans 1:18-19 Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who a) suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is b) manifest c) in them, for God has shown it to them.

Footnotes: a) hold down b) evident c) among
Indeed. "For God despiseth the times of this unknowing, and now showeth to men, that all every where do penance;

31 for that he hath ordained a day, in which he shall deem the world in equity, in a man in which he ordained, and gave faith to all men, and raised him from death [raising him from dead]." Acts 17:30-31, WYC https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17:30-31&version=WYC
 
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Nonsense, Christians receive the revelation of Christ but they aren't bibliolators.

That is a confusion of terms because all Christians have the responsibility to preach and teach to the ability which God has given them. That ability is subject to change through a growth in Grace and knowledge of Christ and a decline according to sin and it's effects. The same cannot be said of the Scriptures in their originals.

In translation one conveys the intended meaning from the source language to the target language as best as their God given ability allows. If there were a one to one correspondence between languages (there is not) then there wouldn't be a need for translation because then it would only be a matter of a common vocabulary.

Since it is your story it is appropriate that your novel have your conclusion.

Indeed. "For God despiseth the times of this unknowing, and now showeth to men, that all every where do penance;

31 for that he hath ordained a day, in which he shall deem the world in equity, in a man in which he ordained, and gave faith to all men, and raised him from death [raising him from dead]." Acts 17:30-31, WYC https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17:30-31&version=WYC

The excessive clinging to a literal interpretation of the Biblical Text was demonstrated by the WELS Biblical translators, specifically in Exodus 12:6, in their mistranslation of Holy Scripture. (i.e. erroneous translation of the Lit. Hebrew - beyn ha'arbayim - i.e. "between the evenings" as "sunset". (EHV 2019)) (i.e. adding to the Word of God)

They had already been given the Truth in at least 24 English translations of the Holy Scriptures in Exodus 12:6, "twilight", "dusk", "evening", "between the evenings", but chose instead, to deny the Holy Spirit "inspired" Truth, and to embrace the lie.

One has to ask why? Why are New Covenant (WELS) Christians adding to the Word of God (Old Covenant - Exodus 12:6 - "sunset"), a command that Jesus never obeyed? Why did they tinker with the Old Covenant? (i.e. EHV 2019 - (i.e. Exodus12:6)) Why? Do they not fear God?

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The excessive clinging to a literal interpretation of the Biblical Text was demonstrated by the WELS Biblical translators, specifically in Exodus 12:6, in their mistranslation of Holy Scripture. (i.e. erroneous translation of the Lit. Hebrew - beyn ha'arbayim - i.e. "between the evenings" as "sunset". (EHV 2019)) (i.e. adding to the Word of God)

They had already been given the Truth in at least 24 English translations of the Holy Scriptures in Exodus 12:6, "twilight", "dusk", "evening", "between the evenings", but chose instead, to deny the Holy Spirit "inspired" Truth, and to embrace the lie.

One has to ask why? Why are New Covenant (WELS) Christians adding to the Word of God (Old Covenant - Exodus 12:6 - "sunset"), a command that Jesus never obeyed? Why did they tinker with the Old Covenant? (i.e. EHV 2019 - (i.e. Exodus12:6)) Why? Do they not fear God?

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Show us FROM THE BIBLE where believing in the correct time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered, that Jesus and His disciples ate, is necessary for salvation. From the Bible.

Instead, we find this:

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be [h]disappointed.”

Romans 10, from NASB 1995.

See anything there about knowing the correct time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered being necessary for salvation? Especially since we are in the new and better covenant of Grace in the blood of Jesus Christ, the ultimate Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world?
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
The excessive clinging to a literal interpretation of the Biblical Text was demonstrated by the WELS Biblical translators, specifically in Exodus 12:6, in their mistranslation of Holy Scripture. (i.e. erroneous translation of the Lit. Hebrew - beyn ha'arbayim - i.e. "between the evenings" as "sunset". (EHV 2019)) (i.e. adding to the Word of God)

They had already been given the Truth in at least 24 English translations of the Holy Scriptures in Exodus 12:6, "twilight", "dusk", "evening", "between the evenings", but chose instead, to deny the Holy Spirit "inspired" Truth, and to embrace the lie.

One has to ask why? Why are New Covenant (WELS) Christians adding to the Word of God (Old Covenant - Exodus 12:6 - "sunset"), a command that Jesus never obeyed? Why did they tinker with the Old Covenant? (i.e. EHV 2019 - (i.e. Exodus12:6)) Why? Do they not fear God?

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Nonsense. A translation which footnotes a literalistic translation in the same target language is not adding to the word of God.

To borrow your words, do you not fear God? Why do you presume to add to the word of God by speaking authoritatively for Him where He has not spoken? Where did He ever say or imply that this or that English translation is the only correct translation?
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
They had already been given the Truth in at least 24 English translations of the Holy Scriptures in Exodus 12:6, "twilight", "dusk", "evening", "between the evenings", but chose instead, to deny the Holy Spirit "inspired" Truth, and to embrace the lie.
Since you apparently missed the point from the Wycliffe translation of Acts 17:30-31 here it is again.
"For God despiseth the times of this unknowing, and now showeth to men, that all every where do penance;

31 for that he hath ordained a day, in which he shall deem the world in equity, in a man in which he ordained, and gave faith to all men, and raised him from death [raising him from dead]." Acts 17:30-31, WYC https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17:30-31&version=WYC

The Wycliffe translation preceded the KJV and other modern translations which choose to translate pistis, faith, as assurance or some other sub optimal synonym of assurance. By your logic shouldn't you be expressing greater displeasure over that since it impacts the Christian's understanding of the faith?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Since you apparently missed the point from the Wycliffe translation of Acts 17:30-31 here it is again.
"For God despiseth the times of this unknowing, and now showeth to men, that all every where do penance;

31 for that he hath ordained a day, in which he shall deem the world in equity, in a man in which he ordained, and gave faith to all men, and raised him from death [raising him from dead]." Acts 17:30-31, WYC https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17:30-31&version=WYC

The Wycliffe translation preceded the KJV and other modern translations which choose to translate pistis, faith, as assurance or some other sub optimal synonym of assurance. By your logic shouldn't you be expressing greater displeasure over that since it impacts the Christian's understanding of the faith?
I note the "do penance" which I think came from the Latin Vulgate but is a mistranslation. It should simply be "repent", if I am not mistaken.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
I note the "do penance" which I think came from the Latin Vulgate but is a mistranslation. It should simply be "repent", if I am not mistaken.
Yes, an interesting aspect of the Wycliffe Bible is that the source was a Latin translation. That is how it wound up with, "do penance," in Acts 27:30.

The KJV translators corrected that mistranslation but inexplicably then mistranslated pistis, faith, in Acts 17:31 as assurance. To the best of my memory that is the only place in the KJV where the noun pistis is translated as something other than faith. That is the kind of stuff that happens when the theology of the translators and or publishers overrule what Scripture actually says.

Btw, for what it is worth, over the last few days I've noticed that my spell checker/auto complete has a pagan bias. The word sin auto corrects to son or sun, earth to Earth, faith to Faith, etc. Oh well...
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yes, an interesting aspect of the Wycliffe Bible is that the source was a Latin translation. That is how it wound up with, "do penance," in Acts 27:30.

The KJV translators corrected that mistranslation but inexplicably then mistranslated pistis, faith, in Acts 17:31 as assurance. To the best of my memory that is the only place in the KJV where the noun pistis is translated as something other than faith. That is the kind of stuff that happens when the theology of the translators and or publishers overrule what Scripture actually says.

Btw, for what it is worth, over the last few days I've noticed that my spell checker/auto complete has a pagan bias. The word sin auto corrects to son or sun, earth to Earth, faith to Faith, etc. Oh well...
You know what auto-correct truly is, don't you, BJ? It is a teeny, tiny little elf that lives in our devices, works very hard, and means well, but in reality, is just drunk....

He needs to lay off the sauce! :p
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
You know what auto-correct truly is, don't you, BJ? It is a teeny, tiny little elf that lives in our devices, works very hard, and means well, but in reality, is just drunk....

He needs to lay off the sauce! :p
LOL! Thanks, I will remember that. :)
 
Just as long as everybody agrees with your paradigm.

Scripture's authority is divine and absolute. (i.e. Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21 - i.e. on earth as in heaven) (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - position (3) in the original post)

When one places "some" of one's faith in "false" doctrines on earth (i.e. positions (1) & (2) in the original post; i.e. bearing "false" witness to believers in Jesus Christ on earth), then it is impossible for that one to place 100% faith in the "doctrine of Christ" on earth. (i.e. (2 John 9); (Matthew 26:2); (Mark 8:31))

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Scripture's authority is divine and absolute. (i.e. Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21 - i.e. on earth as in heaven) (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - position (3) in the original post)

When one places "some" of one's faith in "false" doctrines on earth (i.e. positions (1) & (2) in the original post; i.e. bearing "false" witness to believers in Jesus Christ on earth), then it is impossible for that one to place 100% faith in the "doctrine of Christ" on earth. (i.e. (2 John 9); (Matthew 26:2); (Mark 8:31))

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Chuckle!!! Just as long as everybody agrees with YOUR (your particular sect's) paradigm.
Same 'ol same 'ol.
 
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