Lutheran doctrine contradicts Lutheran doctrine (i.e. Exodus 12 – Passover Instituted)

[davbeh2010]

Then I suggest you write to the editors of the ESV, and tell them they lied and set them straight.

In the meantime, please answer my question: Where does the Bible tell us knowing the correct time of day the Paschal lamb was sacrificed, that Jesus and the disciples ate, necessary for salvation? So far, you have been studiously avoiding answering this very simple question.

Just as I figured, too embarrassing for one to answer. One is not an expert knowledgeable in this area. Got it!

No need to write, it's already been made known . Get ready to rumble!

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[BJ Bear]

Exactly. One shouldn't mistake one's personal preference (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - "sunset" - EHV @2019) for God's commands, or God's law.

If the EHV English Biblical translators @2019 cannot answer the following three questions honestly, regarding the Passover ordinance commanded by God (i.e. Exodus 12:6), then one can conclude that the EHV English Biblical translators @2019 have borne false witness to all believers in Jesus Christ who have read their EHV @2019 English Biblical translation. (i.e. Exodus 12:6) (i.e. false witness - making public or declaring for truth, anything that cannot be properly proved with sufficient clear evidence - Reference: The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] 271] 272]; (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21))


These three questions can be easily answered when one has the true translation of (Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - i.e. twilight - i.e. dusk)

According to the commands of God,

When was the time of day on the 14th that the Passover lamb was to be slaughtered? (i.e. Exodus 12:6)
Which day, the 14th or 15th, was one to eat the Passover supper?
Which days represented the seven days of Unleavened Bread, the 14th through 20th, or the 15th through 21st?


In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

Your three questions are irrelevant since the EHV is a translation which has your preferred translation of the passage in the foornote. Since what is referred to is the same are you now trying to argue against your own view?

 

[davbeh2010]

Then I suggest you write to the editors of the EHV, and tell them they lied and set them straight. But do note the footnote it has for this verse:

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 12 - Evangelical Heritage Version

Instructions for the Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread - The LORD told Moses and Aaron this in the land of Egypt: This month is to be the beginning of your calendar. It is to be the first month of the year for you. Tell the entire Israelite community that on the tenth day of this...

www.biblegateway.com

C. "Literally between the evenings, very likely between sunset and darkness"

This would be twilight, which is how most Bibles translate this idiom, though a few have toward evening or evening.

You are making a big deal out of nothing.

In the meantime, please answer my question: Where does the Bible tell us knowing the correct time of day the Paschal lamb was sacrificed, that Jesus and the disciples ate, necessary for salvation? So far, you have been studiously avoiding answering this very simple question.

C. "Literally between the evenings, very likely between sunset and darkness"

They'll have the jury laughing out loud with that footnote. Try explaining how a "sunset" occurs "very likely" and naturally, between sunset and darkness. Good luck with that one.

Btw, no other Bible translations translate this idiom with "sunset". None!

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[davbeh2010]

Your three questions are irrelevant since the EHV is a translation which has your preferred translation of the passage in the foornote. Since what is referred to is the same are you now trying to argue against your own view?

The EHV is a translation marketed as the Word of God and Holy! (i.e. Exodus 12:6)

The three questions are not irrelevant. Just because one cannot personally answer them, does not make them irrelevant.
So another one is not an expert knowledgeable in this area. Got it!

The truthful answers to those three questions are Scriptural evidence that supports the truthful translation of the Hebrew idiom "beyn ha'arbayim" as, "between the evenings" - "twilight" - "dusk". (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21)

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Bonnie]

C. "Literally between the evenings, very likely between sunset and darkness"

They'll have the jury laughing out loud with that footnote. Try explaining how a "sunset" occurs "very likely" and naturally, between sunset and darkness. Good luck with that one.

Btw, no other Bible translations translate this idiom with "sunset". None!

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

Between the evenings could mean between noon AND SUNSET. So....sacrificing the lamb AT sunset would still be correct. After all, the EHV didn't say AFTER SUNSET, or AT DARK. Did it?

Again, you are making a HUGE deal out of nothing.

But again, when are you going to answer my simple question? Where does the Bible say knowing the correct time of day that the Paschal lamb was sacrificed for the Last Supper is necessary for salvation--especially since Jesus fulfilled the entire sacrificial system of the Law of Moses, making it obsolete?

 

[Bonnie]

The EHV is a translation marketed as the Word of God and Holy! (i.e. Exodus 12:6)

It is, as far as I know.

The three questions are not irrelevant.

Just kindly answer the question. It is the same question I have been asking you for MONTHS.

Just because one cannot personally answer them, does not make them irrelevant

Oh, are you admitting that you cannot answer my simple question?

So another one is not an expert knowledgeable in this area. Got it!

What degrees in Biblical languages do you have, again?

The truthful answers to those three questions are Scriptural evidence that supports the truthful translation of the Hebrew idiom "beyn ha'arbayim" as, "between the evenings" - "twilight" - "dusk". (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21)

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

So, what is the difference between "twilight/dusk" and "sunset"? are you suggesting that "twilight" comes AFTER sunset? And are saying "twilight" is correct? NOT sunset? I want to make sure here.

 

[Bonnie]

Just as I figured, too embarrassing for one to answer. One is not an expert knowledgeable in this area. Got it!

No embarrassment whatsoever. I never said I was an expert in this area, now, did I?

But please be plain, which in your opinion is the correct time? Sunset, twilight/dusk, or anytime between noon and sunset?

No need to write, it's already been made known . Get ready to rumble!

What do you mean by this? Did you already write to the editors? Please explain.

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

You never bring harmony, just a lot of hullabaloo over something that isn't even relevant anymore, since Jesus completely fulfilled the OT sacrificial system by the sacrifice of Himself on the cross.

 

[davbeh2010]

Between the evenings could mean between noon AND SUNSET. So....sacrificing the lamb AT sunset would still be correct. After all, the EHV didn't say AFTER SUNSET, or AT DARK. Did it?

Again, you are making a HUGE deal out of nothing.

But again, when are you going to answer my simple question? Where does the Bible say knowing the correct time of day that the Paschal lamb was sacrificed for the Last Supper is necessary for salvation--especially since Jesus fulfilled the entire sacrificial system of the Law of Moses, making it obsolete?

In other words, one doesn't understand what the English definition of "between" means, got it!

The Hebrew idiom "between the evenings" in (Exodus 12:6) could mean several things, as evidenced by the many different translations by the various Lutheran denominations, and as also evidenced by the many different understandings within the Jewish schools of thought. (i.e. Jewish schools of thought - https://yahuranger.com/2013/01/10/7-passover-jewish-factions/ )

However, only one understanding is correct as originally commanded by God to Moses in (Exodus 12:6). (i.e. position (3) in the op)


In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[davbeh2010]

.. (i.e. Exodus 12:6)

The three questions are not irrelevant. ...

The truthful answers to those three questions are Scriptural evidence that supports the truthful translation of the Hebrew idiom "beyn ha'arbayim" as, "between the evenings" - "twilight" - "dusk". (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21)

According to the commands of God in (Exodus 12:6),

When was the time of day on the 14th that the Passover lamb was to be slaughtered? (i.e. Exodus 12:6) Answer: (position (3) in the op)
Which day, the 14th or 15th, was one to eat the Passover supper? Answer: (15th)
Which days represented the seven days of Unleavened Bread, the 14th through 20th, or the 15th through 21st? Answer: (15th through 21st)

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Bonnie]

In other words, one doesn't understand what the English definition of "between" means, got it!

Yes, someone DOES know what "between" means, and this is just a diversionary tactic, to keep from answering my very simple question. Isn't it?

But I do NOT know Hebrew, and never claimed to. So, do YOU have degrees in Biblical languages, especially the OT Hebrew?

The Hebrew idiom "between the evenings" in (Exodus 12:6) could mean several things, as evidenced by the many different translations by the various Lutheran denominations, and as also evidenced by the many different understandings within the Jewish schools of thought. (i.e. Jewish schools of thought - https://yahuranger.com/2013/01/10/7-passover-jewish-factions/ )

But other non-Lutheran translations also say "twilight". Or "evening". Are you going to write to all of these Bible translations' editors and tell them they are wrong?

Exodus 12:6 Parallel: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

However, only one understanding is correct as originally commanded by God to Moses in (Exodus 12:6). (i.e. position (3) in the op)

Then please tell me plainly what YOU think is the proper translation: sunset, twighlight/dusk, or anytime between noon and sunset?

 

[Bonnie]

According to the commands of God in (Exodus 12:6),

When was the time of day on the 14th that the Passover lamb was to be slaughtered? (i.e. Exodus 12:6) Answer: (position (3) in the op)
Which day, the 14th or 15th, was one to eat the Passover supper? Answer: (15th)
Which days represented the seven days of Unleavened Bread, the 14th through 20th, or the 15th through 21st? Answer: (15th through 21st)

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

You still didn't answer MY 3 simple questions:

1. Which is the correct translation of "between the evenings"? Sunset, twilight, or anytime between noon and sunset (between the evenings)? Remember, all of the Bible translations I looked at on Biblehub have all three.

2. What degree in Biblical languages do you possess?

3. What possible relevance does the exact time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered have in the New and better Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ, the ultimate Lamb of God, whose sacrifice of Himself on Calvary's cross fulfilled the OT sacrificial system completely, thus making it obsolete and null and void? IS believing the correct time of day necessary for salvation and eternal life?

 

[BJ Bear]

The EHV is a translation marketed as the Word of God and Holy! (i.e. Exodus 12:6)

The three questions are not irrelevant. Just because one cannot personally answer them, does not make them irrelevant.
So another one is not an expert knowledgeable in this area. Got it!

The truthful answers to those three questions are Scriptural evidence that supports the truthful translation of the Hebrew idiom "beyn ha'arbayim" as, "between the evenings" - "twilight" - "dusk". (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21)

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

All translations of Scripture claim to be the word of God in a particular target language.

Your three questions remain irrelevant because you are now trying to argue against your own recognized preferred translation.

 

[Bonnie]

All translations of Scripture claim to be the word of God in a particular target language.

Your three questions remain irrelevant because you are now trying to argue against your own recognized preferred translation.

Do note, Beej, the reluctance to answer my three simple questions. They must be awfully difficult....

 

[BJ Bear]

Do note, Beej, the reluctance to answer my three simple questions. They must be awfully diffi

cult....

Yes, because to answer them correctly lets all the air out of the argumentive balloon.

What I find interesting is that there was no nuclear clock. The guys were just eye-balling it

 

[Bonnie]

Yes, because to answer them correctly lets all the air out of the argumentive balloon.

What I find interesting is that there was no nuclear clock. The guys were just eye-balling it

That is true. The timing was not exactly exact, was it?

 

[BJ Bear]

That is true. The timing was not exactly exact, was it?

No it wasn't. It came to be that people had to agree upon when it was "time" before it was officially time.

 

[davbeh2010]

Between the evenings could mean between noon AND SUNSET. So....sacrificing the lamb AT sunset would still be correct. After all, the EHV didn't say AFTER SUNSET, or AT DARK. Did it?

Again, you are making a HUGE deal out of nothing.

But again, when are you going to answer my simple question? Where does the Bible say knowing the correct time of day that the Paschal lamb was sacrificed for the Last Supper is necessary for salvation--especially since Jesus fulfilled the entire sacrificial system of the Law of Moses, making it obsolete?

Again, you are mistaken, making a HUGE error! (i.e. twisting the truth)

Definition of BETWEEN

by the common action of : jointly engaging; in common to : shared by; in the time, space, or interval that separates… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

2a : in the time, space, or interval that separates
the alley between the butcher shop and the pharmacy
should arrive between 9 and 10 o'clock

(i.e. that separates – i.e. the alley is not AT the butcher shop – i.e. the alley is not AT the pharmacy – i.e. the alley is between the butcher shop and the pharmacy)

(i.e. that separates – i.e. should not arrive AT 9 o'clock - should not arrive AT 10 o'clock - should arrive between 9 and 10 o'clock)


In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Bonnie]

Again, you are mistaken, making a HUGE error! (i.e. twisting the truth)

Definition of BETWEEN

by the common action of : jointly engaging; in common to : shared by; in the time, space, or interval that separates… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

2a : in the time, space, or interval that separates
the alley between the butcher shop and the pharmacy
should arrive between 9 and 10 o'clock

(i.e. that separates – i.e. the alley is not AT the butcher shop – i.e. the alley is not AT the pharmacy – i.e. the alley is between the butcher shop and the pharmacy)

(i.e. that separates – i.e. should not arrive AT 9 o'clock - should not arrive AT 10 o'clock - should arrive between 9 and 10 o'clock)


In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

"Between the evenings" is a Hebrew idiom. I am twisting nothing. It can mean anytime between noon and sunset, according to Jewish sources I looked at. That would include sunset itself.

But again, show me where knowing and believing the time when the Paschal lamb Jesus and His disciples ate was slaughtered is necessary for salvation, when Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses completely, including its entire sacrificial system.

Show me, Dave. So far, you have given me didly-squat

 

[davbeh2010]

"Between the evenings" is a Hebrew idiom. I am twisting nothing. It can mean anytime between noon and sunset, according to Jewish sources I looked at. That would include sunset itself.

But again, show me where knowing and believing the time when the Paschal lamb Jesus and His disciples ate was slaughtered is necessary for salvation, when Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses completely, including its entire sacrificial system.

Show me, Dave. So far, you have given me didly-squat

According to the LCMS doctrine, the literal Hebrew English meaning of the Hebrew idiom "beyn ha'arbayim" is "between the evenings", and means "twilight". (i.e. New International Version; New King James Version, etc.)

List the Jewish source you claim would include sunset itself, as the meaning of this Hebrew idiom. Does one know how many Biblical English translations of (Exodus 12:6) that would contradict? Answer: All of them, except the EHV @2019 Evangelical Heritage Version

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Bonnie]

According to the LCMS doctrine, the literal Hebrew English meaning of the Hebrew idiom "beyn ha'arbayim" is "between the evenings", and means "twilight". (i.e. New International Version; New King James Version, etc.)

The time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered is not "doctrine" in our church. We just believe it was slaughtered sometime near or at sunset and leave it at that. It isn't a "doctrine" we MUST believe in order to be good Lutherans and certainly not to be saved.

List the Jewish source you claim would include sunset itself, as the meaning of this Hebrew idiom.

Look it up for yourself since you are so fixated on the time of day and believe anyone who thinks differently than you is wrong. Me, I don't think it makes a particle of difference if the lamb was slaughtered right before, at, or after sunset. You are making a Mt. Everest out of an anthill--and for no reason.

Does one know how many Biblical English translations of (Exodus 12:6) that would contradict? Answer: All of them, except the EHV @2019 Evangelical Heritage Version

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

You are the one making an issue out of a non-issue. But you have yet to answer my simple questions...why is that? They are in post no. 351 on this thread. Care finally to give us a direct answer to those three questions?