Lutheran doctrine contradicts Lutheran doctrine (i.e. Exodus 12 – Passover Instituted)

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Almost five hundred years ago, here is Article VII from the Augsburg Confession:

Article VII. Of the Church​



1 Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.


2 And to the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and


3 the administration of the Sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike.


4 As Paul says: One faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, etc. Eph 4:5-6.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Almost five hundred years ago, here is Article VII from the Augsburg Confession:

Article VII. Of the Church​



1 Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.


2 And to the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and


3 the administration of the Sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike.


4 As Paul says: One faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, etc. Eph 4:5-6.
Ah! Thanks BJ! That is very helpful. :)
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I will write to him and ask him. But words in Greek and Hebrew can have different meanings, depending upon context, you know. But I think you may be misreading him, as you did the Matthew 26:2 verse, because I note this in your quote from him:



Looks to me that he simply had two different ways of saying the same thing. But I wrote to him, to make sure.

Meanwhile, are my questions and BJ's too hard for YOU to answer? Is my point about Matthew 26:2 too hard to grasp? Is my question about whether or not you are or were a Lutheran that hard to answer??

No one is bearing false witness. Except in your own mind.
Okay, Dr. Luginbill got back to me, and he actually told me the same thing I wrote on here--that he was basically saying the same thing about the meaning of the Hebrew phrase, but in two slightly different ways. So, the contradiction is only in your own mind. Perhaps you just need to read more carefully.
 
Okay, Dr. Luginbill got back to me, and he actually told me the same thing I wrote on here--that he was basically saying the same thing about the meaning of the Hebrew phrase, but in two slightly different ways. So, the contradiction is only in your own mind. Perhaps you just need to read more carefully.

You are both sadly mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures. (Exodus 12)

The time between sunset and darkness is "not" the same time as just after sunrise and just before sunset. (i.e. one would have to be delusional to believe so, or senile, or disciples of Antichrist)

Moses and the congregation of Israel would go bonkers at Passover, if they were first directed to follow in these delusional commandments of men.

Rational people know deception when they see deception. Antichrist doctrine in religious observances is summed up by, do whatever one wants to do without any Godly oversight. (i.e. did God really say to do it that way???)

Jesus taught his disciples "not" to bear false witness, and to "not" be deceived. Good doctrine for Bob L., and all other Hebrew/Greek linguists to follow in.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You are both sadly mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures. (Exodus 12)

The time between sunset and darkness is "not" the same time as just after sunrise and just before sunset. (i.e. one would have to be delusional to believe so, or senile, or disciples of Antichrist)

Moses and the congregation of Israel would go bonkers at Passover, if they were first directed to follow in these delusional commandments of men.

Rational people know deception when they see deception. Antichrist doctrine in religious observances is summed up by, do whatever one wants to do without any Godly oversight. (i.e. did God really say to do it that way???)

Jesus taught his disciples "not" to bear false witness, and to "not" be deceived. Good doctrine for Bob L., and all other Hebrew/Greek linguists to follow in.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
I suggest you reread what I wrote, and what Luginbill wrote. And go by what the Bible says. Jesus died before sunset set on Friday, and rose from the dead right around sunrise on the first day of the week. Simple.

You misread Luginbill--again. Reread what he wrote:

The Hebrew phrase beyn ha'arabiyim (בֵּין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם) means literally "between the evenings" and "twilight" is generally how this is understood since the sacrifices are known to have been conducted just after sunrise and just before sunset, that is, at a time when it was neither "night nor day" from that point of view.

See that? When he said sacrifices were conducted AFTER sunrise, he did NOT say killing the lambs happened all day BETWEEN sunrise and up to just before sunset. You need to read more carefully. He said around sunrise and around sunset--times of day when it was neither fully light or fully dark. NOT the times in between.

So no one is delusional or teaching any antichrist doctrines.

No one here has said religious observances are do whatever we want to do. That is false. Christians don't need to celebrate the Passover, if that is what you are implying..it was completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross. Twice my husband has had a Seder meal on Maunday Thursday, which segued into the Lord's Supper, to show the spiritual connection between the two, and how Jesus Christ fulfilled the Passover. We have Christian freedom to observe Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, and the glorious Lord's Resurrection on Easter Sunday--or not do so. We do such to the Lord. But no one is obligated to do so. It is up to us. I suggest you reread Romans 14, very carefully.

ARE you LCMS, or were?
 
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I suggest you reread what I wrote, and what Luginbill wrote. And go by what the Bible says. Jesus died before sunset set on Friday, and rose from the dead right around sunrise on the first day of the week. Simple.

You misread Luginbill--again. Reread what he wrote:



See that? When he said sacrifices were conducted AFTER sunrise, he did NOT say killing the lambs happened all day BETWEEN sunrise and up to just before sunset. You need to read more carefully. He said around sunrise and around sunset--times of day when it was neither fully light or fully dark. NOT the times in between.

So no one is delusional or teaching any antichrist doctrines.

No one here has said religious observances are do whatever we want to do. That is false. Christians don't need to celebrate the Passover, if that is what you are implying..it was completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross. Twice my husband has had a Seder meal on Maunday Thursday, which segued into the Lord's Supper, to show the spiritual connection between the two, and how Jesus Christ fulfilled the Passover. We have Christian freedom to observe Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, and the glorious Lord's Resurrection on Easter Sunday--or not do so. We do such to the Lord. But no one is obligated to do so. It is up to us. I suggest you reread Romans 14, very carefully.

ARE you LCMS, or were?
I suggest that everyone answer the questions in context. Is this too difficult for you? Is this too difficult for Bob L.?

Which Lutheran doctrinal position is true “according to the Scriptures”? (1)?; (2)?; (3)? (Reference the original post)

Do you understand? "Specifically" regarding the exegesis of (Exodus 12:6)!

Which Lutheran doctrinal positions are bearing “false” witness? (1)?; (2)?; (3)? (i.e. contrary to God’s commands to Moses in Exodus 12:6 – Passover)

There is only “one” Holy Spirit “inspired” meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – “according to the Scriptures”. (i.e. "first" mention – Exodus 12:6)

Do you disagree? Are you teaching that the Holy Spirit had more than one meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim for Moses to follow in the sacrifice of the Passover lambs– “between two evenings” – “twilight” – “according to the Scriptures”? (i.e. "first" mention – Exodus 12:6) Also ask your friend Bob L. to stay in context to the original questions in the original post if you are going to continue in relaying his opinions. Do you and Bob L. know what "context" means?

Is Bob L. teaching that the Holy Spirit had more than one meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – “according to the Scriptures” that Moses and the congregation of Israel obeyed in the timing of the Paschal lamb offerings? (i.e. "specifically" "first" mention – Exodus 12:6)

Which meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim – “between two evenings” – “twilight”, is in accordance to the commands that God instructed Moses to follow?

(i.e. "first" mention – Exodus 12:6)

ss|(1)_____________________(_2_)ss|(3)________________________ss|


Key: - ss| (sunset)

Key: - Exodus 12:6 - “beyn ha’arbayim” – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – positions (1); (2); (3) - three distinct positions- three distinct meanings.

The questions in my original post were first. I'm not going to answer any more questions in this thread until these questions get answered first!

Got it. Stop wasting everyone's time with nonsensical "out of context" babble.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
Re: The large Catechism, eighth commandment: There is nothing private about Scripture, official doctrinal statements, or posts on the boards. Therefore your citation of it dorsn't apply for the reasons stated.

The bottom line is your stated interpretation thus far doesn't account for the above, nor that the liturgical calendar is only an organizational device that is used at the discretion of the pastor and congregation, and the difference in calendars.

Obviously, when we come to passages cited in the Gottesdienst or Bible study regarding actual events recorded in the NT occuring during Holy Week we read them and understand them as they are written. We don't stop and do a what is written and what is read type of exercise.

I'll ask again, who is bearing false witness?

(2nd) tier of Authority – The Lutheran Confessions' authority The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. 271] False witness, then, is everything which cannot be properly proved. 272] Therefore, what is not manifest upon sufficient evidence no one shall make public or declare for truth;

All who profess to be Lutheran are bound by the authority of the Lutheran Confessions.

Are you an exception to the rule? (i.e. Lutheran Confessions' authority (i.e. 271]; 272])

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I suggest that everyone answer the questions in context. Is this too difficult for you? Is this too difficult for Bob L.?

Which Lutheran doctrinal position is true “according to the Scriptures”? (1)?; (2)?; (3)? (Reference the original post)

Do you understand? "Specifically" regarding the exegesis of (Exodus 12:6)!

Which Lutheran doctrinal positions are bearing “false” witness? (1)?; (2)?; (3)? (i.e. contrary to God’s commands to Moses in Exodus 12:6 – Passover)

There is only “one” Holy Spirit “inspired” meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – “according to the Scriptures”. (i.e. "first" mention – Exodus 12:6)

Do you disagree? Are you teaching that the Holy Spirit had more than one meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim for Moses to follow in the sacrifice of the Passover lambs– “between two evenings” – “twilight” – “according to the Scriptures”? (i.e. "first" mention – Exodus 12:6) Also ask your friend Bob L. to stay in context to the original questions in the original post if you are going to continue in relaying his opinions. Do you and Bob L. know what "context" means?

Is Bob L. teaching that the Holy Spirit had more than one meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – “according to the Scriptures” that Moses and the congregation of Israel obeyed in the timing of the Paschal lamb offerings? (i.e. "specifically" "first" mention – Exodus 12:6)

Which meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim – “between two evenings” – “twilight”, is in accordance to the commands that God instructed Moses to follow?

(i.e. "first" mention – Exodus 12:6)

ss|(1)_____________________(_2_)ss|(3)________________________ss|


Key: - ss| (sunset)

Key: - Exodus 12:6 - “beyn ha’arbayim” – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – positions (1); (2); (3) - three distinct positions- three distinct meanings.

The questions in my original post were first. I'm not going to answer any more questions in this thread until these questions get answered first!

Got it. Stop wasting everyone's time with nonsensical "out of context" babble.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
We already answered you. We told you when Jesus died and rose again according to the Scriptures. We are going by that, not by what 2 different scholars opinions say. Why don't you understand that?

I do not know Hebrew so am in no position to know which is correct. Which is why I told you what an expert in Hebrew says it means. And you misread him--twice. Why don't you admit you misread? He told you what it means, and it was one meaning. Live with it.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
(2nd) tier of Authority – The Lutheran Confessions' authority The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. 271] False witness, then, is everything which cannot be properly proved. 272] Therefore, what is not manifest upon sufficient evidence no one shall make public or declare for truth;

All who profess to be Lutheran are bound by the authority of the Lutheran Confessions.

Are you an exception to the rule? (i.e. Lutheran Confessions' authority (i.e. 271]; 272])

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
You have yet to show where any of us has borne false witness against anyone. The thing is, OUR doctrine--in both the LCMS and the WELS church--is that Jesus Christ was crucified on Friday and died and was buried before sundown on that day, and rose again around sunrise Sunday morning.

So, no one is bearing false witness against anyone. That is all in your own mind. I still don't see what the big deal is with you and with what those two scholars wrote.
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
I suggest that everyone answer the questions in context. Is this too difficult for you? Is this too difficult for Bob L.?
You haven't yet proven or recanted your false context even though you've been asked to provide the official doctrinal statements that substantiate your assertions. If that is too difficult for you to provide then you should recognize that it is a false claim and retract it or try another way to word it.

Who is bearing false witness?
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
(2nd) tier of Authority – The Lutheran Confessions' authority The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. 271] False witness, then, is everything which cannot be properly proved. 272] Therefore, what is not manifest upon sufficient evidence no one shall make public or declare for truth;

All who profess to be Lutheran are bound by the authority of the Lutheran Confessions.

Are you an exception to the rule? (i.e. Lutheran Confessions' authority (i.e. 271]; 272])
I have demonstrated in this years rendition of the discussion that your claim is out of context with Scripture, the Symbols, and reality.

Who is bearing false witness?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You haven't yet proven or recanted your false context even though you've been asked to provide the official doctrinal statements that substantiate your assertions. If that is too difficult for you to provide then you should recognize that it is a false claim and retract it or try another way to word it.

Who is bearing false witness?
I still don't get what the problem is...a difference of opinion between two Lutheran scholars about what that Hebrew phrase means? is that all this is? Because both your synod and mine believe Jesus was crucified on Friday and buried before sundown on that day, and rose again around sunrise Sunday morning....

Can we say "make a mountain out of an anthill?" Yes, we can....
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
I still don't get what the problem is...a difference of opinion between two Lutheran scholars about what that Hebrew phrase means? is that all this is? Because both your synod and mine believe Jesus was crucified on Friday and buried before sundown on that day, and rose again around sunrise Sunday morning....

Can we say "make a mountain out of an anthill?" Yes, we can....
It appears to me that this has more to do with enthusiasm than what Scripture says or official doctrine of various Synods. We affirm what Scripture says, Constantine's edict is for all intents and purposes of no interest per Article VII of the Augsburg Confession, and the use of idiomatic speech of the Israelites with regard to reckoning calendar days excludes an exact scientific reckoning to the minute or hour.

And to top everything off there is no commandment to adopt the Hebrew calendar, or their customs. For the sake of those who have heard Moses every week we abstain from those things mentioned in Acts 15. The topic of this thread is notably absent from that counsel of the council and Holy Spirit.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
It appears to me that this has more to do with enthusiasm than what Scripture says or official doctrine of various Synods. We affirm what Scripture says, Constantine's edict is for all intents and purposes of no interest per Article VII of the Augsburg Confession, and the use of idiomatic speech of the Israelites with regard to reckoning calendar days excludes an exact scientific reckoning to the minute or hour.

And to top everything off there is no commandment to adopt the Hebrew calendar, or their customs. For the sake of those who have heard Moses every week we abstain from those things mentioned in Acts 15. The topic of this thread is notably absent from that counsel of the council and Holy Spirit.
Exactly! Why should we observe Jewish festivals when we are not Jewish and Jesus fulfilled all of them? People can, if they wish, but we are under no obligation to do so. They are the shadow and Christ is the substance. Now, in our church, a few times es we have had a Seder meal on Maunday Thursday, which then segued into the Lord's Supper, to show the relationship between the two, how the Seder led to Holy Communion.

If this is about doing something unbiblical in a feast, what about the cups of wine in the Passover? They are nowhere commanded by God in the LoM, that I am aware of. In fact, from my research, they are a relatively recent addition by Jesus' time, adapted from the Romans and their banquets. Jesus had no heartburn using the cups of wine to initiate Holy Communion. The addition of the cups of wine was done to honor God and bless Him.

This whole thing is majoring on the minors.
 
You have yet to show where any of us has borne false witness against anyone. The thing is, OUR doctrine--in both the LCMS and the WELS church--is that Jesus Christ was crucified on Friday and died and was buried before sundown on that day, and rose again around sunrise Sunday morning.

So, no one is bearing false witness against anyone. That is all in your own mind. I still don't see what the big deal is with you and with what those two scholars wrote.

The thing is, one’s false witness (i.e. not properly proven truth “according to the Scriptures” and not according to the Lutheran Confessions' explanation of the eighth commandment) – in both the LCMS and the WELS church (i.e. Friday crucifixion) – is contrary to the historical calendar that Jesus and His disciples observed (i.e. 24 hour period – sunset to sunset reckoning), and also contrary to the “doctrine of Christ” (i.e. (John 4:24)) The devil is found in one’s details. (i.e. 100% deception – i.e. pagan Good Friday worship ritual – imposed upon the faithful saints in Christ Jesus by the Papacy and by Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine’s decree (Jude 1:4) (i.e. oral traditions of men on earth that “nullify” the word of God on earth – that “quench” the Spirit on earth – and that “despise” all of Messiah’s fulfilled “verbatim” Resurrection prophecies on earth – (i.e. Matthew 15:7-9), and contrary to the sound faith once for all delivered to the saints on earth (Jude 1:3) (i.e. the apostle to the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul, “never” authorized any such “pagan” worship on earth, nor did the Apostle Paul and his disciples, “practice” this “specific” false doctrine in worship practice on earth).

Go to the original post to see one’s error in teaching “… OUR doctrine--in both the LCMS and the WELS church--is that Jesus Christ was crucified on Friday …”.


(LCMS) doctrine – Jesus’ cross is positioned in the morning between (LCMS) doctrinal position (1) and (WELS) doctrinal position (2).

(WELS) doctrine – Jesus’ cross is positioned in the morning following (WELS) doctrinal position (2).

Conclusion: Either, the Friday that Bonnie refers to is a “48 hour” period of time that encompasses both, Nisan 14 and Nisan 15, or one is talking about two different crucifixions of Jesus. On what planet is that sound Christian doctrine, “according to the Scriptures”? (Psalm 31:18)

Good Scriptural wisdom for one to follow – (1 Timothy 2:11-12) (2 Peter 3:14-18) (i.e. don’t be led away by the error of the wicked false teachers, and by their false doctrine – i.e. instead, be steadfast in the Lord – steadfast in the “Truth” “according to the Scriptures” – (John 8:32) (Proverbs 12:22) (Ephesians 5:11-13))



ss|(1)_____________________(_2_)ss|(3)________________________ss|


Key: - ss| (sunset)

Key: - Exodus 12:6 - “beyn ha’arbayim” – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – positions (1); (2); (3)

  • (1) – twilight beginning Nisan 14 - between sunset and “end of daylight” – from Jewish man’s perspective – sunset to sunset reckoning
  • (2) – twilight between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. ending Nisan 14 afternoon – sunset to sunset reckoning
  • (3) – twilight ending Nisan 14 – between sunset and “end of daylight” – from God’s Perspective – (i.e. Nisan 14 from God’s Perspective - “beginning of daylight” (morning) to “end of daylight” (evening) reckoning - (i.e. Genesis 1:5) (Numbers 9:15,21))

Key: - Exodus 12:6 - “beyn ha’arbayim” – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – positions (1); (2); (3)

  • (1) – (i.e. LCMS doctrine – i.e. per interim President Dr. Daniel Preus - Concordia Seminary St. Louis )
  • (2) – (i.e. WELS doctrine – i.e. W. Georgi’s doctrine - Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4) (p. 264, last paragraph)
  • (3) – (i.e. Paschal Lamb Ministries’ doctrine – i.e. David Behrens' doctrine - baptized and confirmed in the Lutheran traditions (LCMS) within the one true faith – Biblical Judeo/Christian faith (Genesis 1:1 – Revelation 22:21))


In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
The thing is, one’s false witness (i.e. not properly proven truth “according to the Scriptures”
If you haven't found official Synodical doctrinal statements regarding the date of the crucifixion then the one bearing false witness is you. If you won't admit that a night a day constitutes a calendar day regardless of whether it consists of 24 hours then the one bearing false witness is you.

The imagined doctrinal discrepancy you now assert between synods is yet another false witness.

Provide some actual evidence of your claims or repent.
 
Sorry, but I still do not see your point. Especially since the Israelites broke God's laws all the time, never perfectly obeying them, hence God sending other nations to harass them, oppress them, etc. And letting them be carried off into captivity for 70 years. Even Moses disobeyed God on one occassion, so God would not allow him into the holy Land.

The context in the original post is Exodus 12.

Now we know why (LCMS) Lutheran women will never be President of Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, MO. (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)
(i.e. Exodus 12:28,50; 1 Timothy 2:11-12)

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The context in the original post is Exodus 12.

Now we know why (LCMS) Lutheran women will never be President of Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, MO. (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)
(i.e. Exodus 12:28,50; 1 Timothy 2:11-12)

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
What does women not being presidents of Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, MO, have to do with when Jesus died and rose again? Who said women wanted to be presidents of the Seminary?

Jesus ate the meal with His disciples on Thursday evening. There is some controversy if that was a Passover meal or not, or if Jesus ate it early with them, knowing of His upcoming crucifixion. I think it was the Passover meal but John concentrated on other things besides the meal, in his Gospel. But we know Jesus was crucified the next day. He died on Friday, before sundown, and rose again right around when it was barely sunrise on Sunday morning.

I reread Exodus 12 and there is nothing there that contradicts what we believe. The contradiction and falsehood are all in your own mind.
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
@davbeh2010

Enthusiasm plus a high regard for Scripture can come at a high cost as the history of some Pharisees demonstrates. They understood it to say something it didn't so when the Messiah to which the Law and the Prophets testify came to them some of them wouldn't accept correction.

In the case of the topic at hand, the day of the crucifixion, it wisest and best to focus on Christ and His work for all men, t-h-e topic of Scripture, rather than a myopic and eisegetic interpretation of Scripture and history that goes beyond what is written.

There is a reason that you haven't provided actual evidence of official doctrine at a church wide level or at a synodical level.

See the Roman Pope for another object lesson in regard to enthusiasm and a misunderstanding of Scripture and history that is based on eisegesis.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
If you haven't found official Synodical doctrinal statements regarding the date of the crucifixion then the one bearing false witness is you. If you won't admit that a night a day constitutes a calendar day regardless of whether it consists of 24 hours then the one bearing false witness is you.

The imagined doctrinal discrepancy you now assert between synods is yet another false witness.

Provide some actual evidence of your claims or repent.
Hi BJ--doesn't your synod teach that the Last Supper was on Thursday and Jesus died on Friday, before Sundown? I couldn't find anything official about that on my synod's website but we DO celebrate Maunday Thursday...and I have had Seder meals on that day that segued into the Lord's Supper. My husband had them twice, once in our last church, and in our present church. The latter was in 2011.
 
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