Lutheran doctrine contradicts Lutheran doctrine (i.e. Exodus 12 – Passover Instituted)

Sorry, but I still do not see your point. Especially since the Israelites broke God's laws all the time, never perfectly obeying them, hence God sending other nations to harass them, oppress them, etc. And letting them be carried off into captivity for 70 years. Even Moses disobeyed God on one occassion, so God would not allow him into the holy Land.
The context in the original post is Exodus 12.

It was Bonnie who wrote, "the Israelites broke God's laws all the time, never perfectly obeying them, ..."

Never?

(i.e. Exodus 12:28,50; 1 Timothy 2:11-12)

One should stop teaching falsehood!

It is also a historical fact that (LCMS) doctrine contradicts (WELS) doctrine. "Specifically" as illustrated in the original post. Or, are you going to argue with Dr. Preus' expert authority? (i.e. interim president of Concordia Seminary St. Louis, MO) (i.e. in effect, usurping Dr. Preus' authority) That is "not" allowed "according to the Scriptures", and is "not" allowed in the Lutheran church, especially for conservative Lutherans.

Show me where it is allowed for women to usurp a Christian man's authority, in regards to Scriptural doctrines Bonnie? Please explain to all Lutherans on this board where that is allowed. Our heavenly Father is waiting for one's testimony in this regard.

It is also a historical fact that one's Lutheran 48 hour "Good Friday" period of time, containing two crucifixions of Jesus, never existed, "according to the Scriptures". It has always been a falsehood taught by the pagan god Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine, and the Papacy. The false doctrine of "Good Friday" as the day of Christ's most holy passion, was supposedly by a "truer" order. (Reference Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine's (decree - order- epistle) delivered to the Church's (West/East) bishops shortly after the Council of Nicaea A.D. 325. Also "not" allowed "according to the Scriptures" (2 Peter 2) (Jude 1:4) (Revelation 17:6) (i.e. tell a lie long enough, and soon it will be accepted as the truth)

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Are you saying the Israelites ALWAYS obeyed all God's laws perfectly, all the time? And never broke any of them? They may have kept some of the laws some of the time...but not all of them all of the time? OR are you just saying that the Israelites always kept the Passover perfectly? The latter appears to be what you are saying. But did they?
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Hi BJ--doesn't your synod teach that the Last Supper was on Thursday and Jesus died on Friday, before Sundown? I couldn't find anything official about that on my synod's website but we DO celebrate Maunday Thursday...and I have had Seder meals on that day that segued into the Lord's Supper. My husband had them twice, once in our last church, and in our present church. The latter was in 2011.
H Bonnie,
We observe it like you and the rest of the historical liturgical churches. I've never read or heard of a doctrinal statement on the matter.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
One should stop teaching falsehood!

It is also a historical fact that (LCMS) doctrine contradicts (WELS) doctrine.
For the sake of argument, take a step back and read your posts as if you are not the author and don't have a vested interest in just repeating the false assertions. If you can do that then see if you can find the so-called official doctrinal statements on your topic of the synods you mention. You won't find them in any of your posts. So your claim of synodical contradiction in this regard is false.

If that is too difficult then take a look at the liturgical calendar of the synods in this regard and you will find that they both observe Maundy Thursday. You can also look at the litugies themselves and learn that the say the same basic thing, for example, "On the night in which He was betrayed..."

Stop posting falsehood and trying to sow discord among Christians.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Are you saying the Israelites ALWAYS obeyed all God's laws perfectly, all the time? And never broke any of them? They may have kept some of the laws some of the time...but all of them all of the time?
There is also a distinction between adequately and perfectly. There is nothing in Exodus 12 which says or implies they obeyed a command with variables perfectly. It only implies adequately.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
H Bonnie,
We observe it like you and the rest of the historical liturgical churches. I've never read or heard of a doctrinal statement on the matter.
Neither have I ever seen an official doctrinal statement on the matter. One would need to write to our respective synods for that, I suppose. At any rate, what two different scholars wrote about it is immaterial to us. I am just going by the Bible and it is pretty clear to me that Jesus' last supper was a Passover meal, held on Thursday and Jesus died on Friday, before sunset and rose from the dead right around very early dawn on Sunday. Folks in both of our synods believe that. The problem is all in the mind of the OP's author, not in anyone in our respective synods. It is a non issue for us.
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Neither have I ever seen an official doctrinal statement on the matter. One would need to write to our respective synods for that, I suppose. At any rate, what two different scholars wrote about it is immaterial to us. I am just going by the Bible and it is pretty clear to me that Jesus' last supper was a Passover meal, held on Thursday and Jesus died on Friday, before sunset and rose from the dead right around very early dawn on Sunday.
There isn't a statement to be found as none were ever written. So long as the Synods remain Evangelical or Lutheran there won't be one as Scripture is not explicit on some details of time and method in this regard.

The best a person can do is make some guesses and making doctrine out of that or something that isn't based on the certain witness of the word of God has historically been anathema.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
There is also a distinction between adequately and perfectly. There is nothing in Exodus 12 which says or implies they obeyed a command with variables perfectly. It only implies adequately.
Before King Hezekiah's reign, the Passover had not been held for many years. So, they disobeyed God by not observing it. Didn't they?
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Before King Hezekiah's reign, the Passover had not been held for many years. So, they disobeyed God by not observing it. Didn't they?
Yes, good point.

I think the poster was trying to point to a specific instance of the Isarelites perfectly keeping a command. If the comment had been only that they kept the command then I wouldn't have taken issue with it.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yes, good point.

I think the poster was trying to point to a specific instance of the Isarelites perfectly keeping a command. If the comment had been only that they kept the command then I wouldn't have taken issue with it.
Kept what command--to observe the Passover? Sorry to be so obtuse...
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Kept what command--to observe the Passover? Sorry to be so obtuse...
Sorry about that, I know my posts are sometimes too brief.

Yes, it was a citation from Ex 12 regarding the people doing what the Lord commanded. vss 28&50?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yo
Yes. I don't know how to quote but I was referring to post number forty-one, five typed lines down. The line after "Never?"
You mean, cut and paste? Just put the cursor over what you want to cut and paste, hold down the left button, then sweep the cursor over what you want to quote. It will turn bluish-gray. Then right click, tap "copy", then go to where you want to paste the info, right click, and then tap "paste."

But thanks for the info. The Israelites did obey God perfectly in these 2 instances, but hardly with 100% perfection afterwards...there is the incident of the golden calf, the fiery serpents, the provision of meat, that some gorged on so much that they died....and the fact that it took 40 years to get to the Promised Land. I remember all of these things and what God did because of them. I am sure YOU do, too, BJ. :)
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
The context in the original post is Exodus 12.

It was Bonnie who wrote, "the Israelites broke God's laws all the time, never perfectly obeying them, ..."

Never?

(i.e. Exodus 12:28,50; 1 Timothy 2:11-12)

One should stop teaching falsehood!

It is also a historical fact that (LCMS) doctrine contradicts (WELS) doctrine. "Specifically" as illustrated in the original post. Or, are you going to argue with Dr. Preus' expert authority? (i.e. interim president of Concordia Seminary St. Louis, MO) (i.e. in effect, usurping Dr. Preus' authority) That is "not" allowed "according to the Scriptures", and is "not" allowed in the Lutheran church, especially for conservative Lutherans.

Show me where it is allowed for women to usurp a Christian man's authority, in regards to Scriptural doctrines Bonnie? Please explain to all Lutherans on this board where that is allowed. Our heavenly Father is waiting for one's testimony in this regard.

It is also a historical fact that one's Lutheran 48 hour "Good Friday" period of time, containing two crucifixions of Jesus, never existed, "according to the Scriptures". It has always been a falsehood taught by the pagan god Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine, and the Papacy. The false doctrine of "Good Friday" as the day of Christ's most holy passion, was supposedly by a "truer" order. (Reference Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine's (decree - order- epistle) delivered to the Church's (West/East) bishops shortly after the Council of Nicaea A.D. 325. Also "not" allowed "according to the Scriptures" (2 Peter 2) (Jude 1:4) (Revelation 17:6) (i.e. tell a lie long enough, and soon it will be accepted as the truth)

In Christ’s service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
As per your line: "Exodus 12:28,50", at THOSE times, the Israelites obeyed God properly. But later on....? Have you forgotten the golden calf incident? And the incident where they complained so much, God sent venomous snakes to bite the people, in punishment? How about when they complained about how tired they were of the manna, and God sent them quail for meat--and some gorged themselves on so much on meat that some died....be careful what you wish for...

So, did the Israelites obey God with 100% perfection, during the 40 years of wandering? Why did it take 40 years? Do you remember why? I do.
 
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So where are your purported official "Lutheran" doctrinal staements?

Concordia Self-Study Bible
New International Version
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984

(page 100, note on Exodus 12:6, bottom of page)

[ 12:6 at twilight. Lit. "between the two evenings," an
idiom meaning either (1) between the decline of the sun and
sunset, or (2) between sunset and nightfall - which has
given rise to disputes about when the Sabbath and other holy
days begin.]


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Concordia Self-Study Bible
New International Version
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984

(page 100, note on Exodus 12:6, bottom of page)

[ 12:6 at twilight. Lit. "between the two evenings," an
idiom meaning either (1) between the decline of the sun and
sunset, or (2) between sunset and nightfall - which has
given rise to disputes about when the Sabbath and other holy
days begin.]


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
This isn't a doctrine but an explanation of the meaning of a Greek idiom.
 
This isn't a doctrine but an explanation of the meaning of a Greek idiom.
Concordia Self-Study Bible
New International Version
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984

(page 1532, note 8 on Passion Week)

[8. Crucifixion - FRIDAY Mt 27:1-66; Mk 15:1-47; Lk 22:66 - 23:56; Jn 18:28 - 19:37]

Thank you for affirming that "Good Friday" is "not" an official Lutheran doctrine of Jesus' crucifixion, but is only an attempt to explain the chronology of Passion week from the "private interpretations" of men. (i.e. Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine's "private interpretation" of the day of Christ's most Holy passion, first embraced by the Papacy, and then shortly thereafter, embraced by Eastern Orthodoxy - A D. 325)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Concordia Self-Study Bible
New International Version
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984

(page 1532, note 8 on Passion Week)

[8. Crucifixion - FRIDAY Mt 27:1-66; Mk 15:1-47; Lk 22:66 - 23:56; Jn 18:28 - 19:37]

Thank you for affirming that "Good Friday" is "not" an official Lutheran doctrine of Jesus' crucifixion, but is only an attempt to explain the chronology of Passion week from the "private interpretations" of men. (i.e. Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine's "private interpretation" of the day of Christ's most Holy passion, first embraced by the Papacy, and then shortly thereafter, embraced by Eastern Orthodoxy - A D. 325)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Sigh. I didn't mean that Jesus' dying on good Friday is NOT something we teach. We do. But what you posted is NOT about doctrines but is simply an explanation for a Greek idiom. That is all. Please learn the difference.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Concordia Self-Study Bible
New International Version
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984

(page 1532, note 8 on Passion Week)

[8. Crucifixion - FRIDAY Mt 27:1-66; Mk 15:1-47; Lk 22:66 - 23:56; Jn 18:28 - 19:37]

Thank you for affirming that "Good Friday" is "not" an official Lutheran doctrine of Jesus' crucifixion, but is only an attempt to explain the chronology of Passion week from the "private interpretations" of men. (i.e. Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine's "private interpretation" of the day of Christ's most Holy passion, first embraced by the Papacy, and then shortly thereafter, embraced by Eastern Orthodoxy - A D. 325)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Hi Davbeh,

We have been discussing this topic for years and it has been pointed out for years that the in the church calendar Good Friday, like other particular days of remembrance or celebration, is a place holder. It isn't an attempt to observe the very day nor is it an attempt at explanation.

If you or someone else want to pretend that Jesus isn't the Christ, wasn't born of the virgin Mary, wasn't crucified for the sins of the world, wasn't raised for our justification, and doesn't make all things new in Him and therefore all are under the law then everyone who uses the calendar prevalent in the west will, depending on the year, will celebrate a Good Sunday, a Good Monday, a Good Tuesday, etc.
Unlike our calendar, the Hebrew calendar after accounting for the leftover days at the end of the year has a reset. In that way "Good Friday" will occur on the same day and date each year.

At the end of the day (no pun intended) you are still in the same place with regard to your claim, namely, there is no command to the Gentiles to adopt the Hebrew calendar.
 
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