Lutheran doctrine contradicts Lutheran doctrine (i.e. Exodus 12 – Passover Instituted)

BJ Bear

Well-known member
(2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Affirming the gospels with "lip service" on earth, and breaking the commands of God (i.e. (Matthew 19:17-19); (John 4:24)) for the sake of the Papacy's "non" Holy Spirit inspired traditions, is hypocritical. (i.e. (Matthew 15:3-9)

1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 NKJV
Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things, hold fast what is good.

One is "not" striving to love the LORD on earth with all of one's heart, with all of one's soul, with all of one's mind, and with all of one's strength. (i.e. Deuteronomy 4:39; Ephesians 4:4-6))

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Do you find it odd that you quoted passages that don't depict the observation of Holy Week? I do.
 
Still waiting for that official Lutheran doctrine regarding the observance of the day of Christ's most Holy passion within the Lutheran church.

Take all the time one wants. One won't find one.

However, according to the premise in the original post, one will find that Lutheran doctrine is indeed contradicting Lutheran doctrine, "contrary" to the Holy Scriptures. (i.e. bearing "false" witness against one's neighbor - Matthew 19:17-19; Colossians 3:8-10)

Official Doctrinal Statement of the Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod - Years 1847 - 1998

Fellowship dialogue 1853 1, 253
It is not unionism, but biblical for different denominations to discuss their differences and to try to convince each other of the truth.

Which denomination(s) is (are) bearing false witness against their neighbors. Reference the original post - position (1); position (2); or position (3)?

Shouldn't those who teach falsehood on earth repent, and turn to Jesus, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Christian saints on earth deserve the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth! (i.e. on earth, as in heaven)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Official Doctrinal Statement of the Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod - Years 1847 - 1998

Fellowship dialogue 1853 1, 253
It is not unionism, but biblical for different denominations to discuss their differences and to try to convince each other of the truth.

Which denomination(s) is (are) bearing false witness against their neighbors. Reference the original post - position (1); position (2); or position (3)?

Shouldn't those who teach falsehood on earth repent, and turn to Jesus, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Christian saints on earth deserve the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth! (i.e. on earth, as in heaven)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Misunderstanding and misapplying Scripture and now an LCMS doctrinal statement doesn't help your case. Do you recognize that isn't an official doctrinal statement that is evidence of the title of your post? If so then when are you going to repent?

Do you remember or were you taught the difference between the external clarity of the word and the internal clarity of the word? The external clarity of the word is what Scripture says. That is what is publicly proclaimed before the people.

The internal clarity of the word is what a person perceives the word to mean but is against or doesn't quite square with what the word says. The perceived internal clarity of the word is not to be proclaimed before the people.

Your entire issue is based upon you wanting people, in this case Evangelicals or Lutherans, to accept and affirm your perceived internal clarity of the word rather than you accepting what the word says, rather than you accepting the external clarity of the word.

Some examples are that you perceive a command for the Gentiles to adopt the Hebrew calendar and the law in this regard when Scripture has no such command for the Gentiles, you are not willing to accept the witness of Scripture regarding the few things that the Holy Spirit and those gathered at Jerusalem determined to enjoin upon the Gentiles for the sake of the Jewish brethren.

Claims about the truth are hollow and false when the truth of God's word is not being asserted in order to assert what is only a perceived truth of God's word that doesn't match what Scripture says.
 
Jesus alone of all humanity obeyed God perfectly, never sinning even once. No one else on earth has ever done so. ...

Great, so then one can explain how Jesus obeyed the LORD's commands every year in Exodus 12:6 "according to the Scriptures ". (i.e. fourteenth day of the first month - twilight - Reference op - position (1)?; position (2)?; position (3)?)

Which Lutherans are bearing false witness, "specifically" in this regard, against their neighbors? (i.e. teaching believers in Jesus Christ on earth, that Jesus didn't follow the Lord's commands perfectly in (Exodus 12:6) every year)

The Truth is found in Jesus. (i.e. Ephesians 4:21, 25) Be truthful, Jesus is watching.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Great, so then one can explain how Jesus obeyed the LORD's commands every year in Exodus 12:6 "according to the Scriptures ". (i.e. fourteenth day of the first month - twilight - Reference op - position (1)?; position (2)?; position (3)?)

Which Lutherans are bearing false witness, "specifically" in this regard, against their neighbors? (i.e. teaching believers in Jesus Christ on earth, that Jesus didn't follow the Lord's commands perfectly in (Exodus 12:6) every year)

The Truth is found in Jesus. (i.e. Ephesians 4:21, 25) Be truthful, Jesus is watching.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
No Lutheran on here is bearing false witness, or teaching that Jesus did not follow God's commands perfectly. I did say He alone followed all of God's commands perfectly. That is the truth.
 
No Lutheran on here is bearing false witness, or teaching that Jesus did not follow God's commands perfectly. I did say He alone followed all of God's commands perfectly. That is the truth.
The (LCMS) teaches that Jesus obeyed the LORD's commands in Exodus 12:6 - "twilight " on the fourteenth day as illustrated in position (1) in the op.

The (WELS) teaches that Jesus obeyed the LORD's commands in Exodus 12:6 - "twilight" on the fourteenth day as illustrated in position (2) in the op.

So, truthfully explain how Jesus could have followed both Lutheran oral traditions of "twilight" simultaneously, and perfectly, "according to the Scriptures". (i.e Exodus 12:6)

(i.e. it's impossible - who is lying?)

I don't appreciate being deceived by Lutheran traditions, especially when the "doctrine of Christ" teaches Christians "not" to be deceived.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
The (LCMS) teaches that Jesus obeyed the LORD's commands in Exodus 12:6 - "twilight " on the fourteenth day as illustrated in position (1) in the op.

The (WELS) teaches that Jesus obeyed the LORD's commands in Exodus 12:6 - "twilight" on the fourteenth day as illustrated in position (2) in the op.

So, truthfully explain how Jesus could have followed both Lutheran oral traditions of "twilight" simultaneously, and perfectly, "according to the Scriptures". (i.e Exodus 12:6)

(i.e. it's impossible - who is lying?)

I don't appreciate being deceived by Lutheran traditions, especially when the "doctrine of Christ" teaches Christians "not" to be deceived.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
So you still haven't found official doctrine on the point you are trying to make. Instead you may have found something somewhere that somebody said at some time and instead deceive people as to the status and reach of each statement.

The simple truth of the matter is that you are trying to measure with an exactness which isn't relevant because we have no command to do likewise and it is not in Scripture.

By way of analogy consider that four would be chefs in culinary school are learning about pastries. They are given a prior winning recipe to learn from in which it says use less than one cup of water. One chef says I think it means use a half cup of water and another says I think it means use three quarters of a cup of water. The third chef echoes the recipe and says it means use less than a cup of water.

The fourth chef chimes in that it is either a half cup or three quarter cup and he says it must be one or the other and says it must be the other. (It doesn't matter which he says it is because they are both less than a cup.) And everyone who disagrees is lying, especially you over there who only echo the recipe.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The (LCMS) teaches that Jesus obeyed the LORD's commands in Exodus 12:6 - "twilight " on the fourteenth day as illustrated in position (1) in the op.

The (WELS) teaches that Jesus obeyed the LORD's commands in Exodus 12:6 - "twilight" on the fourteenth day as illustrated in position (2) in the op.

So, truthfully explain how Jesus could have followed both Lutheran oral traditions of "twilight" simultaneously, and perfectly, "according to the Scriptures". (i.e Exodus 12:6)

(i.e. it's impossible - who is lying?)

I don't appreciate being deceived by Lutheran traditions, especially when the "doctrine of Christ" teaches Christians "not" to be deceived.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Why are you so obsessed with this? I couldn't even follow your OP position, it was so....weird looking. No one is being deceitful. And why do you even care what we do? You are not a Lutheran and don't belong to our church. Our two synods don't go around belting out to all people the slight differences between what these two leaders in our churches wrote! So, no one is lying or being deceitful. That is all in your own mind.

The Gospels don't even mention exactly at what time the Passover lamb was killed that Jesus and His disciples ate. Nor do they mention the exact time Jesus and the Disciples ate the Passover meal except that it was at evening. Or "when the hour came." Or "the evening meal was in progress." The time of day when the lamb was slaughtered wasn't even mentioned, so obviously, it is not that important in the events of the Last Supper. Jesus ate the Passover feast with His disciples. He instituted the Lord's Supper for the forgiveness of sins. This and what happened next are what are important.

You are majoring on the minors, Dave. And for no purpose.
 
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Why are you so obsessed with this? I couldn't even follow your OP position, it was so....weird looking. No one is being deceitful. And why do you even care what we do? You are not a Lutheran and don't belong to our church. Our two synods don't go around belting out to all people the slight differences between what these two leaders in our churches wrote! So, no one is lying or being deceitful. That is all in your own mind.

The Gospels don't even mention exactly at what time the Passover lamb was killed that Jesus and His disciples ate. Nor do they mention the exact time Jesus and the Disciples ate the Passover meal except that it was at evening. Or "when the hour came." Or "the evening meal was in progress." The time of day when the lamb was slaughtered wasn't even mentioned, so obviously, it is not that important in the events of the Last Supper. Jesus ate the Passover feast with His disciples. He instituted the Lord's Supper for the forgiveness of sins. This and what happened next are what are important.

You are majoring on the minors, Dave. And for no purpose.
Still waiting for an explanation. Why are Lutherans reimagining how Jesus walked on earth? Who gave the Lutheran leadership permission to misrepresent the word of God? (i.e. Exodus 12)

So, truthfully explain how Jesus could have followed both Lutheran oral traditions of "twilight" simultaneously, and perfectly, "according to the Scriptures". (i.e Exodus 12:6)

(i.e. it's impossible - who is lying?)

I don't appreciate being deceived by Lutheran traditions, especially when the "doctrine of Christ" teaches Christians to, "not" be deceived, and to also, worship the Father in spirit and truth. (i.e. Matthew 15:7-9) (John 4:22-24)

Truth matters!

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Still waiting for an explanation. Why are Lutherans reimagining how Jesus walked on earth? Who gave the Lutheran leadership permission to misrepresent the word of God? (i.e. Exodus 12)

So, truthfully explain how Jesus could have followed both Lutheran oral traditions of "twilight" simultaneously, and perfectly, "according to the Scriptures". (i.e Exodus 12:6)

(i.e. it's impossible - who is lying?)

I don't appreciate being deceived by Lutheran traditions, especially when the "doctrine of Christ" teaches Christians to, "not" be deceived, and to also, worship the Father in spirit and truth. (i.e. Matthew 15:7-9) (John 4:22-24)

Truth matters!

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Still waiting for you to answer my questions.

You are not living up to your motto. I fact, you are bringing more disharmony than harmony. Why do you major on the minors? You have yet to show any lying, between two opinions. In fact, I know of no official doctrine in my church or BJ's as to what time the Paschal Lamb had been slaughtered, prior to the Passover feast, in which Jesus instituted His Last Supper. Which is FAR more important.

If the exact time the Pascual Lamb was slaughtered was so important, then why didn't any of the Gospel's mention it?
 
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The simple truth of the matter is that you are trying to measure with an exactness which isn't relevant because we have no command to do likewise and it is not in Scripture.

The simple truth of the matter is that the Lutheran leadership held onto "false" doctrine received many hundreds of years ago, not from the "doctrine of Christ", nor from the Apostle Paul, but rather, from the Papacy's dogma, and from Ceasar's "private interpretation" of the day of Christ's most Holy passion. (i.e. (2 Peter 2); (Jude 1:4); (Revelation 17:6))

The simple truth of the matter is that these pagans unsuccessfully tried to measure with an exactness the exact day of Christ's most Holy passion on earth (i.e. by a "truer order"), which wasn't relevant, because they had no command from the Holy Scriptures, nor from Jesus' apostles, to do so.

A major FAIL!

Their "specific" false doctrine in this regard (i.e. Friday Nisan 15), "nullifies" the word of God on earth (i.e. Matthew 26:2); (Numbers 28:16); (Mark 8:31)), "quenches" the Spirit on earth (i.e. (Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim)), and despises all of Christ's fulfilled "verbatim" Resurrection prophecies on earth. The Holy Scriptures "do" command - (John 4:24); (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21).

Christ died on earth for our sins "according to the Scriptures", and "not" according to the Papacy's dogma. (i.e. remember that the Papacy doesn't have a great record of truth in their historical dogmas - i.e. sale of indulgences - that got Martin Luther all fired up (i.e. Ephesians 5:11-13);, belief in the geocentric Earth model - that got Galileo excommunicated, etc., etc., etc.)

Abide in the "doctrine of Christ" (i.e. 2 John 9)
Truth matters!

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
The simple truth of the matter is that the Lutheran leadership held onto "false" doctrine received many hundreds of years ago,
The simple truth of the matter is that if it were false doctrine then you could find an official doctrinal statement and we wouldn't affirm what Scripture says in this regard. Obviously, after years of discussing this topic you have never found an official doctrinal statement in this regard and we continue to affirm what Scripture says in this regard.

You are projecting your view on to those who have never held it.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Hi--I heard back from my LCMS synod about an official teaching about what time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered, that Jesus ate with His disciples. I recently received this from the CTCR:

Thank you for the question. It was forwarded to the staff of the LCMS’s Commission on Theology and Church Relations, where we often responded to questions of this nature.

It is important to be clear what the official doctrine of the LCMS is. Our official doctrine is Holy Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions, and everything that is contained therein. We have approved many doctrinal statements and doctrinal resolutions at conventions over the years to clarify what we believe Scripture or the confessions say on this or that matter, but there is no explicit statement about Good Friday.

However, since Scripture seems fairly clear that Jesus died on Friday before the observance of the Sabbath on Friday evening at sundown, we would say that it is biblical to affirm Jesus’s death on Good Friday and that it is the position of the LCMS. Moreover, I confess that I am not aware of any existing churches that reject the dating of Christ’s death on a Friday.

For the sake of your non-Lutheran friend, though, this should be no obstacle to membership at a LCMS congregation. There are many things in Scripture that we may not understand clearly or accurately.

CTCR Staff

It went on to say one could always speak to one of our pastors for clarification. My original question to them was if there was an official doctrinal statement about when the Paschal lamb was slaughtered on Good Friday. There is not. ONLY that Jesus Himself died on Good Friday.

Seems to me it doesn't really matter when the lamb was slaughtered, but that it was. Thousands of pilgrims would have poured into Jerusalem for the Passover. It seems to me, the priests would have been kept busy all day long slaughtering the beasts, since there were a limited number of priests to do the job. Maybe they all waited until the same time of day and then started slaughtering the lambs. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

I think it is much ado about nothing. Scripture doesn't tell us in the Gospels when the lambs were slaughtered. That is not their focus. We can learn from Scripture to put our focus on Jesus Christ as THE Lamb of God who was slain for the sins of the world and takes them away. NOT on some piddly little detail about the exact time of day the lambs were slaughtered for the Passover meal.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Hi--I heard back from my LCMS synod about an official teaching about what time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered, that Jesus ate with His disciples. I recently received this from the CTCR:



It went on to say one could always speak to one of our pastors for clarification. My original question to them was if there was an official doctrinal statement about when the Paschal lamb was slaughtered on Good Friday. There is not. ONLY that Jesus Himself died on Good Friday.

Seems to me it doesn't really matter when the lamb was slaughtered, but that it was. Thousands of pilgrims would have poured into Jerusalem for the Passover. It seems to me, the priests would have been kept busy all day long slaughtering the beasts, since there were a limited number of priests to do the job. Maybe they all waited until the same time of day and then started slaughtering the lambs. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

I think it is much ado about nothing. Scripture doesn't tell us in the Gospels when the lambs were slaughtered. That is not their focus. We can learn from Scripture to put our focus on Jesus Christ as THE Lamb of God who was slain for the sins of the world and takes them away. NOT on some piddly little detail about the exact time of day the lambs were slaughtered for the Passover meal.
Hi Bonnie thanks for posting this, but it seems the poster rejected all of this long ago providing his LCMS father who was also a LCMS pastor was in line with the synod paradigm.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Hi Bonnie thanks for posting this, but it seems the poster rejected all of this long ago providing his LCMS father who was also a LCMS pastor was in line with the synod paradigm.
Thanks, but not sure what you mean by your last line.
 

Nic

Well-known member
Thanks, but not sure what you mean by your last line.
I'm not sure when his father was a pastor but seminex comes to mind for pastors who may teach something different than the what the synod may say on an issue. I apologize if that's less than clear. I was thinking out loud a bit with the poster's background in mind. 🙂
Nic
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I'm not sure when his father was a pastor but seminex comes to mind for pastors who may teach something different than the what the synod may say on an issue. I apologize if that's less than clear. I was thinking out loud a bit with the poster's background in mind. 🙂
Nic
Oh, okay. That is clearer.:)
 
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