Lutheran doctrine contradicts Lutheran doctrine (i.e. Exodus 12 – Passover Instituted)

Bonnie

Super Member
I just think it is majoring on the minors. I mean, who cares--other than that poster--what time of day the lamb was slaughtered? Neither my church or BJ's has any official teaching or doctrine about that.
 

Nic

Well-known member
I just think it is majoring on the minors. I mean, who cares--other than that poster--what time of day the lamb was slaughtered? Neither my church or BJ's has any official teaching or doctrine about that.
With the noted exception in this thread, I've never heard anyone demand that as necessary doctrine of faith as well.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
With the noted exception in this thread, I've never heard anyone demand that as necessary doctrine of faith as well.
Neither have I. It is such a tiny, minor point, considering what was going on at the Last Supper and what happened afterwards!
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Hi--I heard back from my LCMS synod about an official teaching about what time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered, that Jesus ate with His disciples. I recently received this from the CTCR:



It went on to say one could always speak to one of our pastors for clarification. My original question to them was if there was an official doctrinal statement about when the Paschal lamb was slaughtered on Good Friday. There is not. ONLY that Jesus Himself died on Good Friday.

Seems to me it doesn't really matter when the lamb was slaughtered, but that it was. Thousands of pilgrims would have poured into Jerusalem for the Passover. It seems to me, the priests would have been kept busy all day long slaughtering the beasts, since there were a limited number of priests to do the job. Maybe they all waited until the same time of day and then started slaughtering the lambs. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

I think it is much ado about nothing. Scripture doesn't tell us in the Gospels when the lambs were slaughtered. That is not their focus. We can learn from Scripture to put our focus on Jesus Christ as THE Lamb of God who was slain for the sins of the world and takes them away. NOT on some piddly little detail about the exact time of day the lambs were slaughtered for the Passover meal.
Yes, also given the variables, exact conclusions are only probable.

The discussion illustrates the difference between the sure word of God as clear, certain, and true; and the sure word of God as true. All of us agree that it is true in this regard as it is in all its content, but we don't agree that in this regard that the information is not clear and certain enough to make a doctrine even it weren't regarding just a shadow.
 
Yes, also given the variables, exact conclusions are only probable.

The discussion illustrates the difference between the sure word of God as clear, certain, and true; and the sure word of God as true. All of us agree that it is true in this regard as it is in all its content, but we don't agree that in this regard that the information is not clear and certain enough to make a doctrine even it weren't regarding just a shadow.

The (WELS) church still espouses W. Georgi's testimony that the Hebrew phrase in Exodus 12:6, ("first mention" - beyn ha'arbayim - between the two evenings - twilight), factually means between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on Nisan 14, and the (WELS) church still espouses W. Georgi's testimony that it is a fact that Jesus was crucified on Friday, Nisan 15.

Let me be clear and remind everyone on this thread -

(Doctrinal Statement) - All Lutherans are bound by Scriptural authority (Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21), and by the Lutheran Confessions’ authority - not to make public or declare for truth, anything that cannot be properly proven with sufficient clear evidence. (i.e. Reference: The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] 271] 272]; (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21))

W. Georgi’s article (Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4), should never have been published in a Christian periodical, as W. Georgi's testimony was not based on Scripture alone (i.e. not based on "sound" Christian doctrine), and would never have been supported by Dr. Martin Luther, if presented in Dr. Luther's day, since W. Georgi's testimony was not properly proven with sufficient and clear evidence from Scripture alone.

In other words, W. Georgi's past public testimony, "specifically" in this regard (i.e. "Timelog of Jesus' Last Days"), turned out to be one huge false witness to the world.

Truth Matters!
Abide in the "doctrine of Christ" (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
But so far as I know, and BJ should be able to tell you, the time of day the paschal lamb was slaughtered is NOT A DOCTRINE IN HIS CHURCH. OR mine. That Jesus died on Good Friday IS.

Why are you so obsessed with this?

Much ado about nothing....
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
The (WELS) church still espouses W. Georgi's testimony that the Hebrew phrase in Exodus 12:6, ("first mention" - beyn ha'arbayim - between the two evenings - twilight), factually means between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on Nisan 14, and the (WELS) church still espouses W. Georgi's testimony that it is a fact that Jesus was crucified on Friday, Nisan 15.

Let me be clear and remind everyone on this thread -

(Doctrinal Statement) - All Lutherans are bound by Scriptural authority (Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21), and by the Lutheran Confessions’ authority - not to make public or declare for truth, anything that cannot be properly proven with sufficient clear evidence. (i.e. Reference: The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] 271] 272]; (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21))

W. Georgi’s article (Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4), should never have been published in a Christian periodical, as W. Georgi's testimony was not based on Scripture alone (i.e. not based on "sound" Christian doctrine), and would never have been supported by Dr. Martin Luther, if presented in Dr. Luther's day, since W. Georgi's testimony was not properly proven with sufficient and clear evidence from Scripture alone.

In other words, W. Georgi's past public testimony, "specifically" in this regard (i.e. "Timelog of Jesus' Last Days"), turned out to be one huge false witness to the world.

Truth Matters!
Abide in the "doctrine of Christ" (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
It looks like we are back to somebody at sometime said something. I am curious, but not very, did somebody give Georgi credit or are you just making an assumption?
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
If Lutherans don’t clearly understand how God’s commands in (Exodus 12:6) were perfectly obeyed by Moses, and the congregation of Israel, then Lutherans can’t possibly clearly understand how Jesus, and Jesus’ family and friends, perfectly obeyed God’s commands in (Exodus 12:6) during their lifetimes.


2 Timothy 3:16-17 NKJV

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Footnote: [a] training, discipline


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
None have ever kept fully the law of God save for Lord Jesus!
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
But so far as I know, and BJ should be able to tell you, the time of day the paschal lamb was slaughtered is NOT A DOCTRINE IN HIS CHURCH. OR mine. That Jesus died on Good Friday IS.

Why are you so obsessed with this?

Much ado about nothing....
Not that I think I am infallible in all things pertaining to WELS doctrine, enthusiasm isn't one of my many chief flaws, but I've never heard of it.

Wonder what happened to don't go beyond what is written?
 
None have ever kept fully the law of God save for Lord Jesus!

The LORD was their teacher, and the Israelites did just as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron. To the Letter, and to the Spirit, of the LORD's commands. (i.e. (Exodus 12:28,50; Numbers 9:1-5)) Everything in context to the LORD's commands in the Passover observance.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
Wonder what happened to don't go beyond what is written?

I agree BJ Bear, what ever happened to don't go beyond what is written?

(John 4:24) NKJV

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Does one practice what one preaches?

One does realize that these are the words of Jesus? Does one believe that these written words are divine and absolute? Then one must put these words into practice. Or doesn't one really care?

Truth Matters! (2 John 9)

Truth = "true witness" = position (3) in original post

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The LORD was their teacher, and the Israelites did just as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron. To the Letter, and to the Spirit, of the LORD's commands. (i.e. (Exodus 12:28,50; Numbers 9:1-5)) Everything in context to the LORD's commands in the Passover observance.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
So? The NT Gospels still do not tell us when the paschal lambs were slaughtered before the Last Supper. That wasn't the focus--the focus was the Supper itself and what transpired there. You are majoring on a minor--very minor--point. Which is actually pointless now, in the New Covenant.

Neither the WELS or LCMS has a doctrinal statement as to when the Pascual lamb was killed before the Last Supper. So there is no "doctrinal difference" between us to gripe about. Why are you so obsessed with it?
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
I agree BJ Bear, what ever happened to don't go beyond what is written?

(John 4:24) NKJV

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Does one practice what one preaches?

One does realize that these are the words of Jesus? Does one believe that these written words are divine and absolute? Then one must put these words into practice. Or doesn't one really care?

Truth Matters! (2 John 9)

Truth = "true witness" = position (3) in original post

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Right back at you, Davbeh.

You do know that you go beyond the Scriptures, right? If not then why after all these years haven't you posted the Scripture that says or implies the Gentiles must adopt the Hebrew calendar, etc?

Just wondering.
 
Right back at you, Davbeh.

You do know that you go beyond the Scriptures, right? If not then why after all these years haven't you posted the Scripture that says or implies the Gentiles must adopt the Hebrew calendar, etc?

Just wondering.
Just wondering,

Why would the Gentiles expect their calendar to supersede the Hebrew calendar in the exegesis of Holy Scripture?

The Hebrew calendar is in the Holy Scriptures, and is divine and absolute.

The Gentile calendar is "not" divine and absolute! The Apostle Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, was very clear in his teachings. (i.e. 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21) Prove all things, hold fast what is good.

Frankly, the Gentile calendar is "not" good in interpreting Holy Scripture.

So don't place the Gentile calendar above the Lutheran Church's first tier of authority, i.e. the divine and absolute Holy Scriptures.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Just wondering,

Why would the Gentiles expect their calendar to supersede the Hebrew calendar in the exegesis of Holy Scripture?

The Hebrew calendar is in the Holy Scriptures, and is divine and absolute.

The Gentile calendar is "not" divine and absolute! The Apostle Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, was very clear in his teachings. (i.e. 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21) Prove all things, hold fast what is good.

Frankly, the Gentile calendar is "not" good in interpreting Holy Scripture.

So don't place the Gentile calendar above the Lutheran Church's first tier of authority, i.e. the divine and absolute Holy Scriptures.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
So you stiill have no command or the implication of a command that the Gentiles must adopt the Hebrew calendar.

Calendars and shadows are adiaphora unless a person was a pre-passion member of Abraham's family.

From your perspective, don't you find it odd and incongruous that Christ didn't say, "Go into all the world preaching the superiority of the Hebrew calendar and that it is a sin for the Gentiles not to adopt it?" Neither did the Apostles teach that backwards view of Christ's person and work. They did not do so because they were faithful servants of the true Christ rather than an imaginary Christ with imaginary commands.

Repent.
 
...
Calendars and shadows are adiaphora unless a person was a pre-passion member of Abraham's family. ...

The imperative commands in Holy Scripture are clear. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21) The concept of "adiaphora" is "not" an option to exalt over divine and absolute Holy Scripture. One would have to be ignorant to believe otherwise.

In fact, whenever the philosophical concept of "adiaphora" "nullifies" the word of God, "quenches" the Spirit, and "despises" prophecies, it is always to be viewed as an antichrist method to pollute the Christian faith with "false" doctrine.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
The imperative commands in Holy Scripture are clear. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21) The concept of "adiaphora" is "not" an option to exalt over divine and absolute Holy Scripture. One would have to be ignorant to believe otherwise.

In fact, whenever the philosophical concept of "adiaphora" "nullifies" the word of God, "quenches" the Spirit, and "despises" prophecies, it is always to be viewed as an antichrist method to pollute the Christian faith with "false" doctrine.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Your claims have already been proven or tested and found to be false. Even you haven't been able to find a passage that says the Gentiles must adopt the Hebrew calendar, etc.

Repent.
 
Your claims have already been proven or tested and found to be false. Even you haven't been able to find a passage that says the Gentiles must adopt the Hebrew calendar, etc.

Repent.
Nonsense. Bonnie and yourself haven't properly proven anything with sufficient clear evidence, other than ignorance. That's in violation of the Lutheran Confessions' doctrinal statement which all Lutherans are bound. (Or, are you both exempt from obeying the eighth commandment?)

Pagan non-repentant Gentiles need only to leave the planet. They lose! Uproot them all. Good riddance! (Psalms 2) Even so, come Lord Jesus come.

Repent. (John 4:24)

Truth Matters!
Abide in the doctrine of Christ. (2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Nonsense. Bonnie and yourself haven't properly proven anything with sufficient clear evidence, other than ignorance. That's in violation of the Lutheran Confessions' doctrinal statement which all Lutherans are bound. (Or, are you both exempt from obeying the eighth commandment?)

Pagan non-repentant Gentiles need only to leave the planet. They lose! Uproot them all. Good riddance! (Psalms 2) Even so, come Lord Jesus come.

Repent. (John 4:24)

Truth Matters!
Abide in the doctrine of Christ. (2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Proven and tested are two of the synonyms used in translating that verse. Equivocating on the word proven doesn't help your case or improve the credibility of the claim you have been making.

Re the eighth commandment: Right back at you, Davbeh.
 
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