Lutheran doctrine contradicts Lutheran doctrine (i.e. Exodus 12 – Passover Instituted)

Bonnie

Super Member
Just wondering,

Why would the Gentiles expect their calendar to supersede the Hebrew calendar in the exegesis of Holy Scripture?

Why would we even need a calendar, since we are in the New Covenant in Jesus' blood?
The Hebrew calendar is in the Holy Scriptures, and is divine and absolute.

the Hebrew Calendar was for observing the Law of Moses. We are no longer under that Law. Gentiles never were in the first place, unless they became part of their commonwealth or married into Israel. We celebrate the Lord's Supper of the TRUE and ULTIMATE Paschal Lamb, who takes away the sin of the world.
The Gentile calendar is "not" divine and absolute! The Apostle Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, was very clear in his teachings. (i.e. 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21) Prove all things, hold fast what is good.
Where did Paul say we are under the Law of Moses and must observe the Hebrew calendar, even if we are Gentiles? i must have missed that.....this same Paul also wrote that we are no longer under Law, but under grace.

This same Paul also wrote,

"16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Col. 2)
Frankly, the Gentile calendar is "not" good in interpreting Holy Scripture.

We don't need any "calendar" for interpreting Scripture.
So don't place the Gentile calendar above the Lutheran Church's first tier of authority, i.e. the divine and absolute Holy Scriptures.

Nowhere does Scripture say in the Gospels exactly when the paschal lambs were slaughtered. That is not their focus. And as I have stated, neither my synod nor BJ's synod has any doctrine over when the paschal lamb was slaughtered prior to the Last Supper. That isn't important. The Last Supper and what transpired during it ARE.

Why are you so obsessed with some minor little detail?
In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Nonsense. Bonnie and yourself haven't properly proven anything with sufficient clear evidence, other than ignorance. That's in violation of the Lutheran Confessions' doctrinal statement which all Lutherans are bound. (Or, are you both exempt from obeying the eighth commandment?)

Pagan non-repentant Gentiles need only to leave the planet. They lose! Uproot them all. Good riddance! (Psalms 2) Even so, come Lord Jesus come.

Repent. (John 4:24)

Truth Matters!
Abide in the doctrine of Christ. (2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Show us where in the NT it says that the Gentile Christians must adopt the Hebrew Calendar. SHOW US. And where they must observe all of the Hebrew festivals as spelled out in the Law of Moses. YOU have failed to show us ANY proof of your assertions and I have already shown you that my synod has no DOCTRINE of what time the paschal lamb was slaughtered prior to our Lord's last supper. And neither does BJ's.

And what is all of that nonsense about pagan non-repentant Gentiles leaving the planet--? That sounds pretty extreme to me. And cruel. Jesus came to seek and to save that which is lost. He came to save us, not destroy us.
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
The LORD was their teacher, and the Israelites did just as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron. To the Letter, and to the Spirit, of the LORD's commands. (i.e. (Exodus 12:28,50; Numbers 9:1-5)) Everything in context to the LORD's commands in the Passover observance.

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
None of them were fully obedient to the law that was given, as Paul stated, there are NONE to be justified by the Law!
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
I agree BJ Bear, what ever happened to don't go beyond what is written?

(John 4:24) NKJV

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Does one practice what one preaches?

One does realize that these are the words of Jesus? Does one believe that these written words are divine and absolute? Then one must put these words into practice. Or doesn't one really care?

Truth Matters! (2 John 9)

Truth = "true witness" = position (3) in original post

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Those who are saved are already fulfilling that, due to now having the Holy Spirit indwelling them!
 
All three Lutheran positions below claim “truth” “according to the Scriptures”. (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - “beyn ha’arbayim – “between two evenings” – “twilight”)

Which Lutheran doctrinal position is true “according to the Scriptures”? (1)?; (2)?; (3)?

Which Lutheran doctrinal positions are bearing “false” witness? (1)?; (2)?; (3)? (i.e. contrary to God’s commands to Moses in Exodus 12 – Passover)

There is only “one” Holy Spirit “inspired” meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – “according to the Scriptures”. (i.e. "first" mention – Exodus 12:6)



ss|(1)_____________________(_2_)ss|(3)________________________ss|


Key: - ss| (sunset)

Key: - Exodus 12:6 - “beyn ha’arbayim” – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – positions (1); (2); (3)

  • (1) – twilight beginning Nisan 14 - between sunset and “end of daylight” – from Jewish man’s perspective – sunset to sunset reckoning
  • (2) – twilight between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. ending Nisan 14 afternoon – sunset to sunset reckoning
  • (3) – twilight ending Nisan 14 – between sunset and “end of daylight” – from God’s Perspective – (i.e. Nisan 14 from God’s Perspective - “beginning of daylight” (morning) to “end of daylight” (evening) reckoning - (i.e. Genesis 1:5) (Numbers 9:15,21))

Key: - Exodus 12:6 - “beyn ha’arbayim” – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – positions (1); (2); (3)

  • (1) – (i.e. LCMS doctrine – i.e. per interim President Dr. Daniel Preus - Concordia Seminary St. Louis )
  • (2) – (i.e. WELS doctrine – i.e. W. Georgi’s doctrine - Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4) (p. 264, last paragraph)
  • (3) – (i.e. Paschal Lamb Ministries’ doctrine – i.e. David Behrens' doctrine - baptized and confirmed in the Lutheran traditions (LCMS) within the one true faith – Biblical Judeo/Christian faith (Genesis 1:1 – Revelation 22:21))


Note1: All Lutherans are bound by Scriptural authority (Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21), and by the Lutheran Confessions’ authority - not to make public or declare for truth, anything that cannot be properly proved with sufficient clear evidence. (i.e. Reference: The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] 271] 272]; (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21))

Note2: (LCMS) Concordia Seminary St. Louis interim President Dr. Daniel Preus confirmed to Paschal Lamb Ministries in November, 2020, that W. Georgi’s article (Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4), was never adopted by Concordia Seminary as its official position, and that it cannot be said that Concordia Seminary St. Louis espouses W. Georgi’s views.


So, Lutherans, which doctrine truthfully shows how Moses, and the congregation of Israel, obeyed God’s commands in (Exodus 12:6) perfectly? If Lutherans don’t clearly understand how God’s commands in (Exodus 12:6) were perfectly obeyed by Moses, and the congregation of Israel, then Lutherans can’t possibly clearly understand how Jesus, and Jesus’ family and friends, perfectly obeyed God’s commands in (Exodus 12:6) during their lifetimes.


2 Timothy 3:16-17 NKJV

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Footnote: [a] training, discipline

Which Lutheran doctrinal position is true “according to the Scriptures”? (1)?; (2)?; (3)?

Answer: Position (3) is true "according to the Scriptures" - Exodus 12 - Passover.
Truth Matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ" - (i.e. John 4:24; 2 John 9).


Which Lutheran doctrinal positions are bearing “false” witness? (1)?; (2)?; (3)? (i.e. contrary to God’s commands to Moses in Exodus 12 – Passover)

Answer: Positions (1) and (2) are bearing "false" witness. (i.e. contrary to God’s commands to Moses in Exodus 12 – Passover) Repent.
Truth Matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ" - (i.e. John 4:24; 2 John 9).


There is only “one” Holy Spirit “inspired” meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – “according to the Scriptures”. (i.e. "first" mention – Exodus 12:6)



ss|(1)_____________________(_2_)ss|(3)________________________ss|


Key: - ss| (sunset)

Key: - Exodus 12:6 - “beyn ha’arbayim” – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – positions (1); (2); (3)


  • (1) – twilight beginning Nisan 14 - between sunset and “end of daylight” – from Jewish man’s perspective – sunset to sunset reckoning
  • (2) – twilight between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. ending Nisan 14 afternoon – sunset to sunset reckoning
  • (3) – twilight ending Nisan 14 – between sunset and “end of daylight” – from God’s Perspective – (i.e. Nisan 14 from God’s Perspective - “beginning of daylight” (morning) to “end of daylight” (evening) reckoning - (i.e. Genesis 1:5) (Numbers 9:15-16,21))

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Which Lutheran doctrinal position is true “according to the Scriptures”? (1)?; (2)?; (3)?

Answer: Position (3) is true "according to the Scriptures" - Exodus 12 - Passover.
Truth Matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ" - (i.e. John 4:24; 2 John 9).


Which Lutheran doctrinal positions are bearing “false” witness? (1)?; (2)?; (3)? (i.e. contrary to God’s commands to Moses in Exodus 12 – Passover)

Answer: Positions (1) and (2) are bearing "false" witness. (i.e. contrary to God’s commands to Moses in Exodus 12 – Passover) Repent.
Truth Matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ" - (i.e. John 4:24; 2 John 9).


There is only “one” Holy Spirit “inspired” meaning of “beyn ha’arbayim – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – “according to the Scriptures”. (i.e. "first" mention – Exodus 12:6)



ss|(1)_____________________(_2_)ss|(3)________________________ss|


Key: - ss| (sunset)

Key: - Exodus 12:6 - “beyn ha’arbayim” – “between two evenings” – “twilight” – positions (1); (2); (3)


  • (1) – twilight beginning Nisan 14 - between sunset and “end of daylight” – from Jewish man’s perspective – sunset to sunset reckoning
  • (2) – twilight between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. ending Nisan 14 afternoon – sunset to sunset reckoning
  • (3) – twilight ending Nisan 14 – between sunset and “end of daylight” – from God’s Perspective – (i.e. Nisan 14 from God’s Perspective - “beginning of daylight” (morning) to “end of daylight” (evening) reckoning - (i.e. Genesis 1:5) (Numbers 9:15-16,21))

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
In case you haven't heard, "And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory." 1 Tim 3:16, EMTV

That means the resurrection of the living and the dead has already begun. Why are you looking to what is past and bearing false witness as you do so? After all these years you've provided no official doctrinal statements to set in opposition.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
In case you haven't heard, "And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory." 1 Tim 3:16, EMTV

That means the resurrection of the living and the dead has already begun. Why are you looking to what is past and bearing false witness as you do so? After all these years you've provided no official doctrinal statements to set in opposition.
Yes, no official DOCTRINAL positions on this...

This whole thing is a tempest In a teapot, much ado about nothing...and many thanks to Willie the Shake for these quotes!
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Yes, no official DOCTRINAL positions on this...

This whole thing is a tempest In a teapot, much ado about nothing...and many thanks to Willie the Shake for these quotes!
Yens LCMSers are so formal. 'Round here he is known as Billy Wigglestick.
 
I am sorry, but I fail to see whatever point you are attempting to make. We conservative Lutherans all believe the Scriptures....so not sure what your beef is.

Yes, and I fail to see whatever rebuttal points you had attempted to make in all of your later posts. Total nonsense. A major fail!

What's my beef?

Answer: Christian seminaries and Christian universities should not be teaching unsound Christian doctrine to all future pastors, future priests, future teachers, future evangelists, and future missionaries, within the one true faith "on earth". (i.e. Biblical Judeo/Christian faith - Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21) Do these same Christian teachers within the seminaries and universities teach that the "flat Earth" model is 100% objective truth today? Answer: NO! Do these same Christian teachers within the seminaries and universities teach the ancient practice of alchemy as 100% objective truth today? Answer: NO!

False teachers and false doctrine are not allowed within the one true faith! (i.e. "doctrine of Christ" - eighth commandment) (i.e. "on earth" or in heaven)


Concordia Self-Study Bible
New International Version
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984

(page 100, note on Exodus 12:6, bottom of page)

[ 12:6 at twilight. Lit. "between the two evenings," an
idiom meaning either (1) between the decline of the sun and
sunset, or (2) between sunset and nightfall - which has
given rise to disputes about when the Sabbath and other holy
days begin.]


This footnote placement is in error! If Dr. Martin Luther were alive today, he would agree! During the first Passover observance described in Exodus 12, Moses and the congregation of Israel did not simultaneously observe both definitions of "twilight" that are identified in this footnote explanation. Totally misleading - 100% deception - a doctrine of demons!

Stop bearing "false" witness against one's neighbor. Repent!


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yes, and I fail to see whatever rebuttal points you had attempted to make in all of your later posts. Total nonsense. A major fail!

What's my beef?

Answer: Christian seminaries and Christian universities should not be teaching unsound Christian doctrine to all future pastors, future priests, future teachers, future evangelists, and future missionaries, within the one true faith "on earth". (i.e. Biblical Judeo/Christian faith - Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21) Do these same Christian teachers within the seminaries and universities teach that the "flat Earth" model is 100% objective truth today? Answer: NO! Do these same Christian teachers within the seminaries and universities teach the ancient practice of alchemy as 100% objective truth today? Answer: NO!

False teachers and false doctrine are not allowed within the one true faith! (i.e. "doctrine of Christ" - eighth commandment) (i.e. "on earth" or in heaven)


Concordia Self-Study Bible
New International Version
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984

(page 100, note on Exodus 12:6, bottom of page)

[ 12:6 at twilight. Lit. "between the two evenings," an
idiom meaning either (1) between the decline of the sun and
sunset, or (2) between sunset and nightfall - which has
given rise to disputes about when the Sabbath and other holy
days begin.]


This footnote placement is in error! If Dr. Martin Luther were alive today, he would agree! During the first Passover observance described in Exodus 12, Moses and the congregation of Israel did not simultaneously observe both definitions of "twilight" that are identified in this footnote explanation. Totally misleading - 100% deception - a doctrine of demons!

Stop bearing "false" witness against one's neighbor. Repent!


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
All this brings this to mind:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon...alleryBackground-en-US-1601489353394._RI_.jpg

(Many thanks to Willie the Shake)
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Yes, and I fail to see whatever rebuttal points you had attempted to make in all of your later posts. Total nonsense. A major fail!

What's my beef?

Answer: Christian seminaries and Christian universities should not be teaching unsound Christian doctrine to all future pastors, future priests, future teachers, future evangelists, and future missionaries, within the one true faith "on earth". (i.e. Biblical Judeo/Christian faith - Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21) Do these same Christian teachers within the seminaries and universities teach that the "flat Earth" model is 100% objective truth today? Answer: NO! Do these same Christian teachers within the seminaries and universities teach the ancient practice of alchemy as 100% objective truth today? Answer: NO!

False teachers and false doctrine are not allowed within the one true faith! (i.e. "doctrine of Christ" - eighth commandment) (i.e. "on earth" or in heaven)


Concordia Self-Study Bible
New International Version
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984

(page 100, note on Exodus 12:6, bottom of page)

[ 12:6 at twilight. Lit. "between the two evenings," an
idiom meaning either (1) between the decline of the sun and
sunset, or (2) between sunset and nightfall - which has
given rise to disputes about when the Sabbath and other holy
days begin.]


This footnote placement is in error! If Dr. Martin Luther were alive today, he would agree! During the first Passover observance described in Exodus 12, Moses and the congregation of Israel did not simultaneously observe both definitions of "twilight" that are identified in this footnote explanation. Totally misleading - 100% deception - a doctrine of demons!

Stop bearing "false" witness against one's neighbor. Repent!


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

I've read through most of this thread. I've taken a few notes, and ultimately come to the decision that you are not here for Christian discussion. From post 1, your posts scream division, and division just for the sake of it. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I've been here at CARM since 2013 and if I'm not mistaken Bonnie has been here longer.

You seem to be in opposition to most mainline Christian orthodoxy. Yet, you say "Bringing Christian harmony to all the world". Based on this thread, I'm not seeing any evidence of promoting harmony.

Perhaps reconsider your approach.

God Speed.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I've read through most of this thread. I've taken a few notes, and ultimately come to the decision that you are not here for Christian discussion. From post 1, your posts scream division, and division just for the sake of it. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I've been here at CARM since 2013 and if I'm not mistaken Bonnie has been here longer.

You seem to be in opposition to most mainline Christian orthodoxy. Yet, you say "Bringing Christian harmony to all the world". Based on this thread, I'm not seeing any evidence of promoting harmony.

Perhaps reconsider your approach.

God Speed.
Thanks, ,BD. I have been on CARM since late January 2000. So, waaaaaay longer than you. :)

But all of this timing when the paschal lamb was slaughtered is just a big hoopla over nothing. My synod has no official doctrine about the timing and anyway, who cares, anymore? The lamb in Jesus' day was slaughtered so He and His disciples could celebrate the Passover one last time, in which He instituted the Lord's Supper. Jesus didn't seem to care when it had been slaughtered at all, and nothing was said about that. His focus was on other things entirely. So should our focus be!
 

Nic

Well-known member
Thanks, ,BD. I have been on CARM since late January 2000. So, waaaaaay longer than you. :)

But all of this timing when the paschal lamb was slaughtered is just a big hoopla over nothing. My synod has no official doctrine about the timing and anyway, who cares, anymore? The lamb in Jesus' day was slaughtered so He and His disciples could celebrate the Passover one last time, in which He instituted the Lord's Supper. Jesus didn't seem to care when it had been slaughtered at all, and nothing was said about that. His focus was on other things entirely. So should our focus be!
You and BJ were when I arrived, but I'm thinking it's been every bit of 15 yrs maybe more. I want to say at some point I discovered Josiah was 12 yrs old, but maybe I have that confused with however long he said he began posting on forums, which was already quite a number of posts when I arrived. I think BJ was late 20's maybe @ 30? BJ posts caught my eye early, I knew so little about so much but even less of the curious Lutherans. I recall Elder challenging me as hostile outsider and I told him I was a friendly and curious about this sub-forum. He always said I reminded him of his son-in-law. Then after that I serve as go between Chaplin Mike who at the time was micas. LovetheLord wasn't here yet. Posters come and go. I'm not sure what became of Thekla I emailed and tried calling to let her know the boards were up. She had a brief stint. I know she always prayed for me. I do miss her.
I'll stop here. Thank you.
🙂
Nic
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
You and BJ were when I arrived, but I'm thinking it's been every bit of 15 yrs maybe more. I want to say at some point I discovered Josiah was 12 yrs old, but maybe I have that confused with however long he said he began posting on forums, which was already quite a number of posts when I arrived. I think BJ was late 20's maybe @ 30? BJ posts caught my eye early, I knew so little about so much but even less of the curious Lutherans. I recall Elder challenging me as hostile outsider and I told him I was a friendly and curious about this sub-forum. He always said I reminded him of his son-in-law. Then after that I serve as go between Chaplin Mike who at the time was micas. LovetheLord wasn't here yet. Posters come and go. I'm not sure what became of Thekla I emailed and tried calling to let her know the boards were up. She had a brief stint. I know she always prayed for me. I do miss her.
I'll stop here. Thank you.
🙂
Nic
Josiah said he was 17 back on here in the early 2000's. He can correct me if I am wrong. He was a brilliant apologist even that young. :)
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
In case you haven't heard, "And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory." 1 Tim 3:16, EMTV

That means the resurrection of the living and the dead has already begun. Why are you looking to what is past and bearing false witness as you do so? After all these years you've provided no official doctrinal statements to set in opposition.
Resurrection at time of Second Coming
 
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