Lutheran doctrine contradicts Lutheran doctrine (i.e. Exodus 12 – Passover Instituted)

BJ Bear

Well-known member
I've read through most of this thread. I've taken a few notes, and ultimately come to the decision that you are not here for Christian discussion. From post 1, your posts scream division, and division just for the sake of it. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I've been here at CARM since 2013 and if I'm not mistaken Bonnie has been here longer.

You seem to be in opposition to most mainline Christian orthodoxy. Yet, you say "Bringing Christian harmony to all the world". Based on this thread, I'm not seeing any evidence of promoting harmony.

Perhaps reconsider your approach.

God Speed.
The bottom line is the poster wants to be more exact in this regard than those who were led to pen Scripture.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
In other words, neither WELS nor the LCMS Biblical scholars have a clue on how the Passover ordinances were observed by Moses and the congregation of Israel. (Reference: The original post - Exodus 12)

Did Jesus observe the Passover ordinances commanded in Exodus 12 "according to the Scriptures" (i.e. position (3) in original post)? Or did Jesus observe the Passover ordinances commanded in Exodus 12 "according to the WELS doctrine (i.e. position (2) in original post)? Or did Jesus observe the Passover ordinances commanded in Exodus 12 "according to the LCMS doctrine (i.e. position (1) in original post)? Which doctrine would have Dr. Martin Luther's stamp of approval? (i.e. Position (1), (2), or (3) in the original post?) One does realize that there is only one Holy Spirit "inspired" meaning of the Hebrew phrase, "beyn ha'arbayim"- between the two evenings. (i.e. only one "sound" doctrine "according to the Scriptures" - Exodus 12)

It is the doctrine of the Apostle Paul that one should not quench the Spirit, and that one should not despise prophecies. (i.e. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21); (Matthew 26:2; Mark 8:31)) Does the Apostle Paul's opinion matter? Of course it does, it is Holy Spirit "inspired". It is also the opinion of others (i.e. atheists), that one need not abide within the "doctrine of Christ" "on earth". In other words, who cares? Do their opinions matter? No! There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! (i.e. Luke 13:28) So it is written, so it will be done!

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
In other words, neither my church or BJ's thinks the time of day the Paschal lambs were actually slaughtered in the OLD covenant is of any relevance or importance in the NEW and BETTER Covenant in the blood of the Lamb of God Who truly takes away the sin of the world.

The Holy Spirit did NOT inspire any of the Gospel writers to record when the Paschal lamb was actually slaughtered for when Jesus ate His last supper with His disciples. Apparently He did not think it was of any importance. Do YOU know better than the HS?

You are making a mountain out of an anthill. And a very SMALL anthill, at that.
 
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Beloved Daughter

Super Member
The bottom line is the poster wants to be more exact in this regard than those who were led to pen Scripture.

Yep! I agree completely. We are so rich in God's blessings. He bestows us with the gift of salvation and still, some want to complicate it by adding "hooks"! What the poster is preaching is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The bottom line is the poster wants to be more exact in this regard than those who were led to pen Scripture.

Exactly.
It's as if he thinks God is watching with a stopwatch precise to the thousandth of a second, and will throw anyone in hell who is outside the range.

Reminds me of Jesus' comment about the Pharisees making sure to tithe on their mint and dill and cumin, but missing the more important aspects. What we call today, "majoring in the minors".

Btw, I'm Baptist, but I don't see the point of attacking Luther and Lutherans.
Like I've said in other forums, people who behave this way convince me that they need to review Gospel Basics 101.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Exactly.
It's as if he thinks God is watching with a stopwatch precise to the thousandth of a second, and will throw anyone in hell who is outside the range.

Reminds me of Jesus' comment about the Pharisees making sure to tithe on their mint and dill and cumin, but missing the more important aspects. What we call today, "majoring in the minors".

Btw, I'm Baptist, but I don't see the point of attacking Luther and Lutherans.
Like I've said in other forums, people who behave this way convince me that they need to review Gospel Basics 101.
Thank you for your reasoned response, Theo. God bless you!
 
Exactly.
It's as if he thinks God is watching with a stopwatch precise to the thousandth of a second, and will throw anyone in hell who is outside the range.

Reminds me of Jesus' comment about the Pharisees making sure to tithe on their mint and dill and cumin, but missing the more important aspects. What we call today, "majoring in the minors".

Btw, I'm Baptist, but I don't see the point of attacking Luther and Lutherans.
Like I've said in other forums, people who behave this way convince me that they need to review Gospel Basics 101.

Do you agree then with the other posters, that Jesus walked "according to custom" (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - positions (1) or (2) in the original post), and that Jesus did not walk "according to the Scriptures" (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - positions (3) in the original post), for all Passover observances in His lifetime "on earth"?

Do you believe that abiding in the "doctrine of Christ" is important for Christians today? (i.e. 2 John 9)

You must also be very upset with Dr. Luther and the Reformers for attacking the established organized religion of his day. (i.e. RCC and the EOC - i.e. Ephesians 5:11-13)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Do you agree then with the other posters, that Jesus walked "according to custom" (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - positions (1) or (2) in the original post), and that Jesus did not walk "according to the Scriptures" (i.e. Exodus 12:6 - "beyn ha'arbayim" - positions (3) in the original post), for all Passover observances in His lifetime "on earth"?

Do you believe that abiding in the "doctrine of Christ" is important for Christians today? (i.e. 2 John 9)

You must also be very upset with Dr. Luther and the Reformers for attacking the established organized religion of his day. (i.e. RCC and the EOC - i.e. Ephesians 5:11-13)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Would you agree that none of the Gospels mention the time of day the Paschal lamb Jesus and His disciples ate? Would you agree that the time of day has zero to do with what Jesus taught them during the supper and that HE never mentioned the importance of the time of day? And would you agree that neither my church or BJ's has a doctrinal stance on what time of day the lamb Jesus and His disciples ate was slaughtered? And would you agree that the time of day is a moot point NOW in the NEW and BETTER covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ, which completely fulfills and makes obsolete the OT sacrifice of the Paschal lamb?
 
... Btw, I'm Baptist, but I don't see the point of attacking Luther and Lutherans.
...

There is no attack on Luther, or Lutherans. Please note from the op.

Note1: All Lutherans are bound by Scriptural authority (Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21), and by the Lutheran Confessions’ authority - not to make public or declare for truth, anything that cannot be properly proved with sufficient clear evidence. (i.e. Reference: The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] 271] 272]; (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21))

Yes, it's true, look it up. Everything which cannot be properly proved upon sufficient evidence, should not be made public or declared for truth. Scripture (i.e. 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21), along with Lutheran leadership, dictates the rules. If Lutheran leadership don't want to comply anymore with their own dictates, then revise them accordingly. Stop the hypocrisy. Just make sure in the process, one does not revise Holy Scripture! (i.e. (Matthew 26:2; Mark 8:31; John 4:24)

Lutherans should be held accountable to their own established rules and dictates. (i.e. Lutherans held the Papacy accountable - i.e. One reaps what one sows)

Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"!

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
There is no attack on Luther, or Lutherans. Please note from the op.

Note1: All Lutherans are bound by Scriptural authority (Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21), and by the Lutheran Confessions’ authority - not to make public or declare for truth, anything that cannot be properly proved with sufficient clear evidence. (i.e. Reference: The Book of Concord - The Large Catechism - The Ten Commandments - The Eighth Commandment - 254] 271] 272]; (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21))

Yes, it's true, look it up. Everything which cannot be properly proved upon sufficient evidence, should not be made public or declared for truth. Scripture (i.e. 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21), along with Lutheran leadership, dictates the rules. If Lutheran leadership don't want to comply anymore with their own dictates, then revise them accordingly. Stop the hypocrisy. Just make sure in the process, one does not revise Holy Scripture! (i.e. (Matthew 26:2; Mark 8:31; John 4:24)

Lutherans should be held accountable to their own established rules and dictates. (i.e. Lutherans held the Papacy accountable - i.e. One reaps what one sows)

Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"!

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
But you have failed to show us WHERE the time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered for Jesus' last supper is a DOCTRINE in our church.....OR answer my questions in my last post, post no. 167. And you have failed to show us why it is even important in the NEW and BETTER covenant NOW in the blood of Jesus Christ, Who alone takes away the sin of the world.
 
But you have failed to show us WHERE the time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered for Jesus' last supper is a DOCTRINE in our church.....OR answer my questions in my last post, post no. 167. And you have failed to show us why it is even important in the NEW and BETTER covenant NOW in the blood of Jesus Christ, Who alone takes away the sin of the world.

[Official Doctrinal Statements of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod - Years: 1847-1998

(i.e. Church orthodox 1947 40, 485 Doctrine actually taught in pulpits, schools, and publications determines
the orthodoxy of a Church. (Brief Statement, 29))]

Since Concordia seminary makes public, in doctrine and practice, that Jesus Christ’s most holy passion occurred on Friday, the sixth day of the week, all Lutherans should be shown that sufficient and clear evidence of why this doctrine is sound, “according to the Scriptures”. I am aware of only one attempt, many years after the Reformation, to provide this evidence to all Lutherans. This attempt was made by W. Georgi, and his writings were published by Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4. Since W. Georgi's doctrine was published in a Lutheran publication, and never officially renounced as a "false" doctrine by the Lutheran Church, all who place some of their faith in this "false" doctrine "on earth", abide "outside" of the "doctrine of Christ" "on earth". (i.e. 2 John 9)

Specifically,

(3rd) tier of Authority - W. Georgi's exegesis of Holy Scripture - (Exodus 12:6) – Reference: “Timelog of Jesus’ Last Days”. (Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4); (p. 264, last paragraph)

“The Passover lamb was killed on Nisan 14, between the two
evenings, 3 P. M. and 6 P. M. (Ex. 12: 6).2
2 See Addition No. II.”


(1st) tier of Authority - Scripture's authority

(Matthew 19:17-19) – (i.e. … You shall not bear false witness …)
(John 4:22-24) – (i.e. … must worship in spirit and truth)
(1 John 2:21) – (i.e. … no lie is of the truth)
(Colossians 3:8-10) – (i.e. … Do not lie to one another …)


Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"! (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
Would you agree that none of the Gospels mention the time of day the Paschal lamb Jesus and His disciples ate? ...


Would you agree that none of the Gospels mention the day of the week of Christ's most holy passion "on earth"?

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Would you agree that none of the Gospels mention the day of the week of Christ's most holy passion "on earth"?

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Yes--because the only day of the week that had a name back then for the Jews was the "Sabbath." But we know what day of the week Jesus was crucified on, because it happened the day before the Sabbath.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
[Official Doctrinal Statements of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod - Years: 1847-1998

(i.e. Church orthodox 1947 40, 485 Doctrine actually taught in pulpits, schools, and publications determines
the orthodoxy of a Church. (Brief Statement, 29))]

Since Concordia seminary makes public, in doctrine and practice, that Jesus Christ’s most holy passion occurred on Friday, the sixth day of the week, all Lutherans should be shown that sufficient and clear evidence of why this doctrine is sound, “according to the Scriptures”. I am aware of only one attempt, many years after the Reformation, to provide this evidence to all Lutherans. This attempt was made by W. Georgi, and his writings were published by Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4. Since W. Georgi's doctrine was published in a Lutheran publication, and never officially renounced as a "false" doctrine by the Lutheran Church, all who place some of their faith in this "false" doctrine "on earth", abide "outside" of the "doctrine of Christ" "on earth". (i.e. 2 John 9)

Specifically,

(3rd) tier of Authority - W. Georgi's exegesis of Holy Scripture - (Exodus 12:6) – Reference: “Timelog of Jesus’ Last Days”. (Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4); (p. 264, last paragraph)

“The Passover lamb was killed on Nisan 14, between the two
evenings, 3 P. M. and 6 P. M. (Ex. 12: 6).2
2 See Addition No. II.”


(1st) tier of Authority - Scripture's authority

(Matthew 19:17-19) – (i.e. … You shall not bear false witness …)
(John 4:22-24) – (i.e. … must worship in spirit and truth)
(1 John 2:21) – (i.e. … no lie is of the truth)
(Colossians 3:8-10) – (i.e. … Do not lie to one another …)


Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"! (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Sorry but there still is NO official "doctrine' about what time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered before the Last Supper. Opinions, but not official DOCTRINE. There isn't.

How about posting links to all of that stuff you quoted from? You failed to do that. I don't have those publications, unless my husband does, upstairs. And I cannot tell what is YOUR writing and what is a quote from these publications.

Now, how about answering my questions in post no. 167?
 
Sorry but there still is NO official "doctrine' about what time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered before the Last Supper. Opinions, but not official DOCTRINE. There isn't.

How about posting links to all of that stuff you quoted from? You failed to do that. I don't have those publications, unless my husband does, upstairs. And I cannot tell what is YOUR writing and what is a quote from these publications.

Now, how about answering my questions in post no. 167?

Sorry that one does not have a clue. Many are in the light, and many are in the darkness. Their choice.

Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"! (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Sorry that one does not have a clue. Many are in the light, and many are in the darkness. Their choice.

Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"! (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
The "doctrine" stuff you quoted was that Jesus' Passion was on Friday. Not about the time of Day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered.

"Since Concordia seminary makes public, in doctrine and practice, that Jesus Christ’s most holy passion occurred on Friday, the sixth day of the week, all Lutherans should be shown that sufficient and clear evidence of why this doctrine is sound, “according to the Scriptures”

Not one word about the time of day the paschal lamb was slaughtered, but about when Jesus' Passion occurred--on Friday, aka Good Friday.

You did not answer my plea for links to what you quoted, and help me differentiate between what you are quoting and what you yourself wrote...OR answer my questions in post no. 167...why?
 
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The "doctrine" stuff you quoted was that Jesus' Passion was on Friday. Not about the time of Day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered.

"Since Concordia seminary makes public, in doctrine and practice, that Jesus Christ’s most holy passion occurred on Friday, the sixth day of the week, all Lutherans should be shown that sufficient and clear evidence of why this doctrine is sound, “according to the Scriptures”

Not one word about the time of day the paschal lamb was slaughtered, but about when Jesus' Passion occurred--on Friday, aka Good Friday.

You did not answer my plea for links to what you quoted, and help me differentiate between what you are quoting and what you yourself wrote...OR answer my questions in post no. 167...why?

Sorry, you are mistaken again. Jesus' Passion did not occur on Friday, aka Good Friday. (i.e. Reference: https://forums.carm.org/threads/why...fix-at-home-and-in-churches.3597/#post-348999 ) The Good Friday hoax is a Papacy doctrine, along with the doctrine of Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine that is total conjecture, and is designed to reflect 100% deception. This opinion does not take into account the "doctrine of Christ". (i.e. (Matthew 26:2; Mark 8:31) One must remember that all Truth matters "on earth", and that Christ is the Head of the Church, and not Caesar, and not the Pope. (i.e. "on earth" as in heaven) If one does not believe 100% in the "doctrine of Christ" "on earth", how can one believe in Christ 100% "on earth"?

This is also doctrine that I quoted,

(3rd) tier of Authority - W. Georgi's exegesis of Holy Scripture - (Exodus 12:6) – Reference: “Timelog of Jesus’ Last Days”. (Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4); (p. 264, last paragraph)

“The Passover lamb was killed on Nisan 14, between the two
evenings, 3 P. M. and 6 P. M. (Ex. 12: 6).2
2 See Addition No. II.”


If the above teaching is not Lutheran doctrine, why would the Lutheran Biblical scholars allow it to be published in a Lutheran publication? Is this question too difficult for one to answer? Is it Christian for Biblical scholars to deceive believers in Jesus Christ?


(1st) tier of Authority - Scripture's authority

(Matthew 19:17-19) – (i.e. … You shall not bear false witness …)
(John 4:22-24) – (i.e. … must worship in spirit and truth)
(1 John 2:21) – (i.e. … no lie is of the truth)
(Colossians 3:8-10) – (i.e. … Do not lie to one another …)


Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"! (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 
Yes--because the only day of the week that had a name back then for the Jews was the "Sabbath." But we know what day of the week Jesus was crucified on, because it happened the day before the Sabbath.

Yes, I know. That day, the day before the Sabbath, was the fifth day of the week, on the fourteenth day of the month.

What is your beef with Everlasting Truth "on earth" as in heaven? Christ "is" risen "on earth" "according to the Scriptures"! That is Good News! (i.e. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

(i.e. Reference: https://forums.carm.org/threads/why...fix-at-home-and-in-churches.3597/#post-348999 )

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Sorry, you are mistaken again. Jesus' Passion did not occur on Friday, aka Good Friday. (i.e. Reference: https://forums.carm.org/threads/why...fix-at-home-and-in-churches.3597/#post-348999 ) The Good Friday hoax is a Papacy doctrine, along with the doctrine of Pontifex Maximus Caesar Constantine that is total conjecture, and is designed to reflect 100% deception. This opinion does not take into account the "doctrine of Christ". (i.e. (Matthew 26:2; Mark 8:31) One must remember that all Truth matters "on earth", and that Christ is the Head of the Church, and not Caesar, and not the Pope. (i.e. "on earth" as in heaven) If one does not believe 100% in the "doctrine of Christ" "on earth", how can one believe in Christ 100% "on earth"?

This is also doctrine that I quoted,

(3rd) tier of Authority - W. Georgi's exegesis of Holy Scripture - (Exodus 12:6) – Reference: “Timelog of Jesus’ Last Days”. (Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4); (p. 264, last paragraph)

“The Passover lamb was killed on Nisan 14, between the two
evenings, 3 P. M. and 6 P. M. (Ex. 12: 6).2
2 See Addition No. II.”


If the above teaching is not Lutheran doctrine, why would the Lutheran Biblical scholars allow it to be published in a Lutheran publication? Is this question too difficult for one to answer? Is it Christian for Biblical scholars to deceive believers in Jesus Christ?


(1st) tier of Authority - Scripture's authority

(Matthew 19:17-19) – (i.e. … You shall not bear false witness …)
(John 4:22-24) – (i.e. … must worship in spirit and truth)
(1 John 2:21) – (i.e. … no lie is of the truth)
(Colossians 3:8-10) – (i.e. … Do not lie to one another …)


Truth matters! Abide in the "doctrine of Christ"! (i.e. 2 John 9)

In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
Sorry, but no I am not wrong, and neither is my church. But that IS doctrine--the time of day the paschal lamb was slaughtered on Thursday is NOT.
 
Sorry, but no I am not wrong, and neither is my church. But that IS doctrine--the time of day the paschal lamb was slaughtered on Thursday is NOT.

How can one state that one's church is not wrong, and yet at the same time, ignore what one's church's doctrine states?


[Official Doctrinal Statements of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod - Years: 1847-1998

(i.e. Church orthodox 1947 40, 485 Doctrine actually taught in pulpits, schools, and publications determines the orthodoxy of a Church. (Brief Statement, 29))]

Does one understand that Lutheran doctrine IS taught in pulpits, schools, and publications, and that this same Lutheran doctrine determines the orthodoxy of a Church? It's true, read the official LCMS doctrine above. Am I missing something here? It's still an official Lutheran doctrine, correct? Are you misunderstanding something here?

Does one consider Concordia Theological Monthly a Lutheran publication?
(i.e. Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4); (p. 264, last paragraph)

Does one consider Concordia Seminary, St. Louis MO a Lutheran school? (i.e. Reference original post)

This same Lutheran doctrine taught in the Lutheran schools, and in the Lutheran publications, is then taught to all future Lutheran pastors, teachers, evangelists, and missionaries. This is what LCMS pastors are allowed to preach in the pulpits, and they cannot deviate from these teachings without losing their positions as LCMS pastors.


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

Bonnie

Super Member
How can one state that one's church is not wrong, and yet at the same time, ignore what one's church's doctrine states?


[Official Doctrinal Statements of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod - Years: 1847-1998

(i.e. Church orthodox 1947 40, 485 Doctrine actually taught in pulpits, schools, and publications determines the orthodoxy of a Church. (Brief Statement, 29))]

Does one understand that Lutheran doctrine IS taught in pulpits, schools, and publications, and that this same Lutheran doctrine determines the orthodoxy of a Church? It's true, read the official LCMS doctrine above. Am I missing something here? It's still an official Lutheran doctrine, correct? Are you misunderstanding something here?

Does one consider Concordia Theological Monthly a Lutheran publication?
(i.e. Concordia Theological Monthly -Vol. XVIII; April, 1947; No. 4); (p. 264, last paragraph)

Does one consider Concordia Seminary, St. Louis MO a Lutheran school? (i.e. Reference original post)

This same Lutheran doctrine taught in the Lutheran schools, and in the Lutheran publications, is then taught to all future Lutheran pastors, teachers, evangelists, and missionaries. This is what LCMS pastors are allowed to preach in the pulpits, and they cannot deviate from these teachings without losing their positions as LCMS pastors.


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
The "doctrine" you have quoted from this publication is about Jesus' dying on Good Friday, which is indeed a doctrine in our church--NOT about what time of day the Paschal lamb was slaughtered. PLEASE learn to discern the difference.
 
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