Lutheran theology

[dberrie2020]

Do the Lutherans link keeping the commandments with entering into life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Tertiumquid]

 

[Bonnie]

Tertium, that is hysterical! And very true!

 

[Bonnie]

..as if we had not discussed this same set of Bible verses over and over again on this board and on the Mormon board, like about...10 times at least....

 

[dberrie2020]

..as if we had not discussed this same set of Bible verses over and over again on this board and on the Mormon board, like about...10 times at least...

This isn't the Mormonism board--and you, nor anyone else--has discussed if the Lutherans link keeping the commandments with eternal life. I welcome any posts which did so--you can carry them over. All "ten times".

Whenever Biblical verses are posted--which defy Lutheran theology--I get the same answers--crickets. Tertiumquid's post is a good example--and yours isn't far behind--crickets.

So--bump for the board--do the Lutherans connect keeping the commandments--with His grace unto life?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[Tertiumquid]

--I get the same answers--crickets. Tertiumquid's post is a good example--and yours isn't far behind--crickets.

This is a total mistruth. You've been interacted with and respond to countless times here by a number of CARM people over the years. Why should anyone interact with the same thing over and over and over again?

 

[Bonnie]

This is a total mistruth. You've been interacted with and respond to countless times here by a number of CARM people over the years. Why should anyone interact with the same thing over and over and over again?

This is most certainly true, what you wrote. Before God Almighty, it is the truth! In fact, here is one such instance where I dealt with these verses on here, from back in February:

• You are trying to be like the Judaizers, who tried to be righteous by obedience to the Law. But what did Paul say about that:
  
  "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did NOT pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness WHICH IS BY FAITH. But Israel, pursuing a LAW of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did NOT pursue it BY FAITH, but, as it were, BY WORKS." (Rom. 9:30-31a).
  
  No one can be justified by obedience to the Law, because NO ONE CAN DO SO, EVER, because we are ALL sinners and everything we to please God would be tainted by sin. James says if we are guilty of breaking ONE of God's laws--we are guilty of ALL OF THEM (paraphrased).
  
  The rich young man was trying to be justified by obedience to the Law. So are Mormons--both their man-made laws and God's laws. BUT--Jesus told the young man that one thing was STILL lacking--he needed to give all he had to the poor (leaving his old life behind him) and follow Jesus--which would mean putting his faith and trust in Jesus, would it not? But what did the young man do? He refused to follow Jesus or have faith and trust in Him, and followed his old life with its earthly riches, instead.
  
  One thing was STILL lacking in the young man. So, did he REALLY keep God's laws perfectly? 100%? What did Jesus show the young man, by telling him to sell all he had, give it to the poor and follow Him, Jesus? What was the young man's reaction?
  
  And looky here what Paul wrote in Romans 1:4c-5:
  
  "...by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of Holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, THROUGH WHOM we have received GRACE and apostleship to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among the Gentiles for His Name's sake."
  
  What does "obedience of faith" mean, dberrie?
  
  And how was Paul able to do what God required of him? Isn't doing what God requires obeying Him?
  
  "But by the GRACE OF GOD, I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the GRACE OF GOD WITH ME." (1 Cor. 15:10)
  
  Did Paul obey God by his own power? OR was it God's grace--GIVEN to him--that enabled him to labor for God in Christ Jesus?
  
  And:
  
  "...of which {taking the Gospel to the Gentiles} I was made a minister, according to the GIFT of God's grace, which was given to me according to the WORKING OF HIS POWER.. To me, the very least of the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ." (Eph. 3:7-8)
  
  so, did Paul obey God in order to GET God's grace? OR did he obey God BECAUSE he had God's grace--which God GAVE to Paul?

• And do YOU obey ALL of God's commandments perfectly, 24/7, 365? Because remember what else James wrote:
  
  
  "For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend on one point, he is guilty of all.(KJV James 2:10)"
  SO--what say you, dberrie? How are YOU doing in the perfect keeping of God's commandments/laws department?
  
  There are only TWO ways to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes, dberrie. The first is by keeping God's commandments perfectly all the time, never stumbling in even one point, for as long as one lives. That is what Jesus was telling the rich young ruler. But He demonstrated to him that he didn't even keep the first and most important commandment--loving God above all else. The young man loved his wealth more--he broke the first commandment and therefore, broke ALL of them.
  
  BUT--there is a SECOND way to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes. Do YOU know that way, dberrie?
  
  
  Romans 4:4-5 English Standard Version (ESV)
  
  "4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,"

• 
  By our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and did PERFECTLY are we declared "not guilty" and righteous in God's eyes--for Jesus' righteousness is then credited to us, by our faith in Him and His finished work on the cross.
  
  Which do you think is more sure, dberrie--depending upon your OWN IMperfect keeping of God's commandments--because you seem to think that is what Jesus wants us to do: keep God's commandments perfectly in order to be saved--OR depending upon Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments in our stead and for our sake? Which is more sure? More dependable?

---

By the way, did you see my other thread on here, about that Martin Chemnitz quote? I had a link to it, but the link no longer works. I wish I had saved the quote, but I didn't. Silly me....would you have any idea where to find it? I think Nic or BJ had it on here on the boards last summer. I think I have Nic's email address, but not BJ's. Thanks .

 

[Lutheranian]

Do the Lutherans link keeping the commandments with entering into life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The righteous standard of God is to keep the commandments perfectly. Good luck.

 

[Tertiumquid]

The righteous standard of God is to keep the commandments perfectly. Good luck.

Maybe in the Lutheran world, but in the Mormon world... "all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." Isn't that great news????

[c.f. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1.3?lang=eng#p3].

 

[Bonnie]

If we are capable of keeping God's commandments perfectly on our own, the Jesus Christ died needlessly. But James says that if we keep the WHOLE law but stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it! Back to square one and starting over again....

But I proved from what I reposted to dberrie that I HAVE dealt with these Matthew verses AND put them in perspective by quoting what else the Bible says about keeping the commandments. Other Lutherans did so also on here over the years. Of course, those responses are gone, unless some of them saved their posts as well. I am glad I saved this one from the last boards, which proves conclusively that THIS Lutheran DID deal with these Matthew verses in the OP IN THE PAST, proving that post no. 5 is untrue.

 

[Dropkick]

Maybe in the Lutheran world, but in the Mormon world... "all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." Isn't that great news????

[c.f. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1.3?lang=eng#p3].

I always felt bad for my Mormon coworkers, especially the fathers. They always seem to work themselves to death just for a possible temple endowment.

 

[Bonnie]

Hi Dropkick! Glad you came back! I wish I had some way to let BJBear know the boards are up, but I don't have his email address. I think I have Nic's, though, and should drop him a line. Maybe take your observation to the Mormon board, if you feel so inclined, since it would be off topic to discuss it here.

 

[Tertiumquid]

If we are capable of keeping God's commandments perfectly on our own, the Jesus Christ died needlessly. But James says that if we keep the WHOLE law but stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it! Back to square one and starting over again....

My 2 cents is that these CARM discussions between members of different persuasions are typically wasted bandwidth. The only person typically benefiting is oneself, as we seek to explain our our point of view. Whether it's Lutheranism, Calvinism, Mormonism, Romanism... each has their own systematic theology, so it's sort of like duel operating systems.

Each person has this goal of presenting verses that we think don't work in someone else's systematic understanding of the Bible. That's why I think dberrie keeps posting the same stuff over and over and over (also included in his posts is more than a hint of hostility towards Bonnie... as was documented on the old boards). But Lutherans have a theological understanding of the relationship of faith and works, dberrie continually ignores this.

 

[Bonnie]

Thanks. TQ...I would say Lutherans are rather well known for the proper relationship between faith and works, Law and Gospel. And our ministers are certainly well-trained to know both! I think Luther himself once wrote that one who can rightfully distinguish between Law and Gospel deserved a doctor's (Ph.D) hat.

you can read this OP of mine, and will see why one sees so much repetition--among other things--when we on here debate those in a certain cult:

https://forums.carm.org/threads/something-that-markk-wrote-on-here-over-2-years-ago.66/

Do note especially the bolded part. I will say no more, since Mormonism is off topic for this board. But glad you are back! How are you feeling now after your covid scare?

 

[Tertiumquid]

Thanks. TQ...I would say Lutherans are rather well known for the proper relationship between faith and works, Law and Gospel. And our ministers are certainly well-trained to know both! I think Luther himself once wrote that one who can rightfully distinguish between Law and Gospel deserved a doctor's (Ph.D) hat.

you can read this OP of mine, and will see why one sees so much repetition--among other things--when we on here debate those in a certain cult:

https://forums.carm.org/threads/something-that-markk-wrote-on-here-over-2-years-ago.66/

Do note especially the bolded part. I will say no more, since Mormonism is off topic for this board. But glad you are back! How are you feeling now after your covid scare?

I'm ok. I think that my scare was early on was why it was scary.

I don't want to violate the rules to discuss LDS stuff, but one thing I've learned over the years is that whatever theological persuasion one is, if you're spending time in dialog on a discussion forum like CARM, you are typically in the category of the exception. That is, most people in my church don't go on discussion boards... and then going deeper, most people in my denomination don't care to do theology or defend their beliefs. The folks here... whether Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Reformed, Mormon, etc. are not the typical Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Mormon, Reformed etc.

Generally, Mormonism has grown sort of wishy washy over the years. Her members are not like they were in the 1970's or early 80's. The folks here defending it are the exceptions.

 

[Dropkick]

Apologetics is really good for strengthening your own faith.

 

[dberrie2020]

This is a total mistruth. You've been interacted with and respond to countless times here by a number of CARM people over the years. Why should anyone interact with the same thing over and over and over again?

The only reaction I have seen is the sound of crickets. It shouldn't be so painful to engage the scriptures.

Care to engage the OP, IE---

Do the Lutherans link keeping the commandments with entering into life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[dberrie2020]

Apologetics is really good for strengthening your own faith.

I really agree with that, as it allows one to dig deep, and often-- into the Biblical text. One begins to study--instead of just read the scriptures.

Personally--I haven't found any Lutherans that are willing to engage my posted Biblical NT scriptures. The only engagement is, for the main--"we already answered that", "out of context", "you don't understand", etc.

The Bible doesn't seem to generate a lot of interest here.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How do Lutherans comport that to their theology?

 

[Tertiumquid]

The only reaction I have seen is the sound of crickets. It shouldn't be so painful to engage the scriptures.

You see sounds? You are an amazing person! I only hear them. I think its called synethesia when people see sounds. Then again, I know quite a number of people that have taken acid while listening to music and describe a number of experiences. If you're able to look at a computer screen and see the sound of crickets... that is the most amazing thing... could easily qualify in Pentecostal circles as a miracle.

 

[dberrie2020]

The righteous standard of God is to keep the commandments perfectly. Good luck.

I don't find a single verse which states God commands perfection in keeping the commandments--unless it is a progression to that point.

We wouldn't need grace if we never violated a commandment. There is a command to keep the commandments--but with repentance and change as our companions. God's grace is always with those who are willing to repent and change.

Lutherans throw the link between keeping the commandments and God's grace unto life, out the window. They believe, and preach-- obtaining eternal life hasn't the first act of obedience to God in it's makeup. That's the greatest lie satan ever pawned upon mankind:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;