Lutheran theology

[dberrie2020]

"Collate" and "comport." Whenever I see those two words, I think of you.

So--you comport me with those terms? Why would you collate that together?

Care to engage why you ask questions but won't directly answer anything without spam-quoting "works" passages?

I use the Biblical scriptures--what do you consider "spam" about the posted scriptures?

Tertiumquid--I use a lot of different scriptures. If I used just a handful--you might have a good point. I bet I could come up with 50 different scriptures I have used here on this board alone. Maybe more. I could come up with more. A lot more. That isn't just posting the same few scriptures--nor is it a narrow view.

So--why don't you use the scriptures? You bombard me with a number of complaints--which have nothing to do with how the Lutherans align(happy?) their theology with the Biblical witness. For me--that amounts to little less than a peanut galley, than one interested in defending Lutheran theology with the Biblical text.

Just so they violate Lutheran theology--and get under the skin of some--is not evidence those scriptures are "spam".

I agree--there are a lot of scriptures which defy Lutheran theology--but I'm not responsible for that.

As to the "works" verses--they are numerous--so one could fit a lot of passages into that arena--which defy faith alone theology.

Why can't Lutherans defend their theology against those scriptures?

 

[Bonnie]

So--you comport me with those terms? Why would you collate that together?



I use the Biblical scriptures--what do you consider "spam" about the posted scriptures?

Tertiumquid--I use a lot of different scriptures. If I used just a handful--you might have a good point. I bet I could come up with 50 different scriptures I have used here on this board alone. Maybe more. I could come up with more. A lot more. That isn't just posting the same few scriptures--nor is it a narrow view.

So--why don't you use the scriptures? You bombard me with a number of complaints--which have nothing to do with how the Lutherans align(happy?) their theology with the Biblical witness. For me--that amounts to little less than a peanut galley, than one interested in defending Lutheran theology with the Biblical text.

Just so they violate Lutheran theology--and get under the skin of some--is not evidence those scriptures are "spam".

I agree--there are a lot of scriptures which defy Lutheran theology--but I'm not responsible for that.

As to the "works" verses--they are numerous--so one could fit a lot of passages into that arena--which defy faith alone theology.

Why can't Lutherans defend their theology against those scriptures?

I have used scriptures with you, over and over again, haven't I? We ALL have--but you pretend we have not, then reask the same questions over and over again, acting as if we have never answered you, or dealt with your Bible verses, or points--that is your modus operandi--isn't it? There are others on here who have witnessed the same thing...aren't there?

Lutheran theology | CARM Forums

Post no. 6 is one such witness. Another is post no. 150 here:

Lutheran theology | Page 8 | CARM Forums

And 1 Thess is another:

Faith that saves Is never alone? | Page 8 | CARM Forums

And of course, Theo is another one who has dealt with you and your Bible quotes numerous times, hasn't he?

We quoted lots of Bible verses for you, answering you and dealing with your points, but you never dealt with OUR points OR answered our questions, or 1 Thess's question, to be shown examples of works that are neither righteous works or works of the Law, that we are supposed to do--did you? Why?

So it is not true that we never quoted Scripture to you or dealt with your points, etc.--isn't it, dberrie?

Good-bye.

No more, dberrie...

 

[Bonnie]

The only reaction I have seen is the sound of crickets. It shouldn't be so painful to engage the scriptures.

Care to engage the OP, IE---

Do the Lutherans link keeping the commandments with entering into life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[dberrie2020]

duplicate

 

[dberrie2020]

I have used scriptures with you, over and over again, haven't I? We ALL have--but you pretend we have not, then reask the same questions over and over again, acting as if we have never answered you, or dealt with your Bible verses, or points--that is your modus operandi--isn't it? There are others on here who have witnessed the same thing...aren't there?

Lutheran theology | CARM Forums

Post no. 6 is one such witness. Another is post no. 150 here:

Lutheran theology | Page 8 | CARM Forums

That's just more claims that the questions have already been answered, which seems to be the typical answer when one finds themselves boxed in a corner.

Well--I answered those answers. Time to move on.

The points aren't settled with one answer. In fact--most of those answers just spawned more questions, IE--



"God counts righteousness apart from the works of the Law--but neither Paul nor God counts righteousness apart from fruits:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So--how do you harmonize your claim--with the testimony of the above scriptures?

God did justify the ungodly, as He died for the sins of the whole world, and justified all men of life--as a free gift:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Paul wasn't claiming all men obtain life---only that all men--including the ungodly--are justified unto life, IE--have the opportunity to inherit eternal life--because God absolved all men of the condemnation of the Fall--through His Atonement and resurrection (death and hell--as an automatic consequence of the Fall)--as a free gift to all men.

To actually inherit eternal life---as a personal reception--one has to meet the conditions of the Redeemer:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

There is a difference between one being brought to the gates of life--and one entering in. Eternal life--as an opportunity--was purchased for all men (ungodly included) through the Blood and resurrection of Christ--free gift. Christ alone. Christ plus nothing of yours or mine. Free. Absolutely free. One is brought to the gates there, ungodly and else. All redeemed from the Fall--and now answers for their own choices, and not Adam's.

Lutherans have a confused theology, which cannot be comported to the Biblical testimony."

 

[Bonnie]

Bye, dberrie:

 

[dberrie2020]

Bye, dberrie:

View attachment 252

Talk to the scriptures:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do Lutherans align that with faith alone theology?

 

[Tertiumquid]

How do Lutherans align that with faith alone theology?

They "comport" "collate" (dberrie favorite words) and align by being descriptive of someone with saving faith. This will be the 1,4678 time this has been explained to you, but it won't matter.

 

[dberrie2020]

They "comport" "collate" (dberrie favorite words) and align by being descriptive of someone with saving faith.

That only connects works as being integral with saving faith:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Faith alone theology excludes all works in obtaining salvation, so linking the works with saving faith can't be meshed with faith alone theology.

Tertiumquid--one can claim your explanation a thousand times--but it still is a dog that just ain't gonna hunt. And Lutherans have not engaged that reality.

 

[Tertiumquid]

That only connects works as being integral with saving faith:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Faith alone theology excludes all works in obtaining salvation, so linking the works with saving faith can't be meshed with faith alone theology.

Tertiumquid--one can claim your explanation a thousand times--but it still is a dog that just ain't gonna hunt. And Lutherans have not engaged that reality.

Of course works are integral to saving faith! You’ve been harassing the Lutherans for years and have no idea what they believe.

 

[Bonnie]

They "comport" "collate" (dberrie favorite words) and align by being descriptive of someone with saving faith. This will be the 1,4678 time this has been explained to you, but it won't matter.

Simple and straight to the point. Thanks for being a witness to the fact that I, you, Bob C., BJBear, Nic, and others have explained this numerous times. But apparently those in Christ dishonoring works righteous cults cannot wrap their minds around the wondrous gift that is true salvation. GIFT.

 

[Bonnie]

Of course works are integral to saving faith! You’ve been harassing the Lutherans for years and have no idea what they believe.

Exactly. Good works are the RESULT of a saving faith, not its cause. Those lost in works righteous cults just cannot seem to understand that. Such must be spiritually discerned and without the indwelling Holy Spirit....well, some just cannot seem to understand cause and effect.

Would you believe I have asked the following question on another board, and not one person has given me a straightforward, correct answer?

In Luke 7 is the story of the sinful woman who came to Jesus while He was at Simon the Pharisee's house, having dinner. She wept for her sins, washed His feet with her tears, and anointed them with perfume, kissing them, and wiping them dry with her hair. Jesus said that her sins, which were many, were forgiven her. She was Then He told her: "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

So I asked them "What did Jesus say actually SAVED the woman?" Not a difficult question to answer, is it?

Contradictions in the LDS Scriptures | Page 12 | CARM Forums

 

[Bonnie]

That only connects works as being integral with saving faith:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Faith alone theology excludes all works in obtaining salvation, so linking the works with saving faith can't be meshed with faith alone theology.

Tertiumquid--one can claim your explanation a thousand times--but it still is a dog that just ain't gonna hunt. And Lutherans have not engaged that reality.

deleted

 

[dberrie2020]

Of course works are integral to saving faith! You’ve been harassing the Lutherans for years and have no idea what they believe.

I believe you have just hit the jackpot of realization with that declaration--and maybe revealed some naive assumptions you might possess.

Tertiumquid--the Lutherans don't believe works are integral to saving faith. That's the reason it's called "faith alone". It's a faith without works in obtaining salvation--in faith alone theology(Lutheran theology).

IOW--Lutheran theology claims one gains eternal life--without the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ!!!(faith alone theology)

Which, IMO--is one of the greatest lies satan has ever pawned upon mankind.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Now--that's the truth, IE--God extends His grace unto life, as a personal reception--to them which walk in His light.

Anathema to faith alone theology.

 

[dberrie2020]

Tertiumquid said: Of course works are integral to saving faith! .

Exactly. Good works are the RESULT of a saving faith, not its cause.

Calling all damage control units!!!!

Bonnie--Tertiumquid didn't claim works were an afterthought of saving faith--rather--that works were integral to saving faith. There is a difference--and it's the difference between Biblical faith--and faith alone theology.

And no one has claimed it is the cause of saving faith--but, rather-- integral to saving faith--so please focus on that point.

If works are integral to saving faith--then faith alone theology is false--at once.

 

[Tertiumquid]

I believe you have just hit the jackpot of realization with that declaration--and maybe revealed some naive assumptions you might possess.

Tertiumquid--the Lutherans don't believe works are integral to saving faith. That's the reason it's called "faith alone". It's a faith without works in obtaining salvation--in faith alone theology(Lutheran theology).

IOW--Lutheran theology claims one gains eternal life--without the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ!!!(faith alone theology)

Which, IMO--is one of the greatest lies satan has ever pawned upon mankind.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Now--that's the truth, IE--God extends His grace unto life, as a personal reception--to them which walk in His light.

Anathema to faith alone theology.

I suspect your "jackpot" is filled with Monopoly money.

"Good works must certainly and without all doubt follow a true faith (provided only it not be a dead but a living faith), as fruits of a good tree" (Formula of Concord 4.A.1)

 

[Bonnie]

I suspect your "jackpot" is filled with Monopoly money.

"Good works must certainly and without all doubt follow a true faith (provided only it not be a dead but a living faith), as fruits of a good tree" (Formula of Concord 4.A.1)

Exactly--or fruits of the Vine, Jesus Christ!

Galations 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s follow the Spirit as well.

Remember what Josiah wrote on here many years ago, and to the same poster?

Round and round you go....... obviously in spite of knowing you are just clinging to a wrong strawman.

You KNOW that NO ONE ever has claimed, taught, believed or held that faith is not joined with OUR works. So, why the continuing strawman?

The issue we disagree upon is that you seem to insist that what WE do is the cause of our justification (narrow sense) - THAT is what those here are rejecting, you have this silly, absurd, illogical insistence that if things are associated (even inseparable) they THUS have the IDENTICAL FUNCTION, so if faith in Christ means there is justification ERGO our works do, too. It's silly. It's illogical, irrational, and certainly unbiblical. YOU are not the Savior. Nor am I. JESUS is. Which means HIS WORKS justify.

True faith inevitably leads to good works of love, done by the person BECAUSE HE IS SAVED, not to GET saved. Those in Christ dishonoring pseudo Christian cults just cannot seem to grasp this on a spiritual level--it is foolishness to them, as Paul wrote "The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those of us who are being saved, it is the power of God."

 

[dberrie2020]

"Good works must certainly and without all doubt follow a true faith...

Which means the "true faith" is a faith without works in obtaining salvation. Works are not integral to faith in obtaining salvation--in faith alone theology. Quite to the contrary--it's what the scriptures call a faith which is dead--a faith without works--as Bonnie has already admitted--and the faith alone theology claims.

How does that compare with your testimony?

Tertiumquid said: Of course works are integral to saving faith! .

So--please don't muddy up the waters of Lutheran theology.

(provided only it not be a dead but a living faith), as fruits of a good tree" (Formula of Concord 4.A.1)

LOL!!!! Faith alone theology claiming it's a faith without works in obtaining salvation--what the Bible claims that very faith(faith without works) is a dead faith--and then put in a clause --(provided only it not be a dead but a living faith)?

How gullible can one be??? Faith alone theology is just that--salvation through a faith without works--period. Claiming a "living faith" is a ruse, when referring to obtaining salvation.

 

[dberrie2020]

True faith inevitably leads to good works of love, done by the person BECAUSE HE IS SAVED, not to GET saved.

Which is a guise to the reality the Lutherans believe "true faith" is a reference to a faith without works(what the scriptures refer to as dead faith, is "true faith" in Lutheran theology).

IOW--"true faith" LEADS to good works--works are not part of the "true faith" in obtaining salvation. One is saved through this "true faith"--or, this faith without works.

Wow. What the Bible labels a dead faith--the Lutherans preach is a saving faith.

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Bonnie]

Which is a guise to the reality the Lutherans believe "true faith" is a reference to a faith without works(what the scriptures refer to as dead faith, is "true faith" in Lutheran theology).

IOW--"true faith" LEADS to good works--works are not part of the "true faith" in obtaining salvation. One is saved through this "true faith"--or, this faith without works.

Wow. What the Bible labels a dead faith--the Lutherans preach is a saving faith.

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

"For it is by grace you are saved, through faith--and that is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and not by works, so no one may boast."

"He saved us, NOT on account of deeds we have done in righteousness, but on account of HIS MERCY."

Don't like these verses? You need to complain to the Apostle Paul--right?

"Your FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace."
Luke 7:50

What did Jesus say actually saved the woman? THE EXACT WORD?