Lutheran theology

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
So--please don't muddy up the waters of Lutheran theology.
"Good works must certainly and without all doubt follow a true faith (provided only it not be a dead but a living faith), as fruits of a good tree" (Formula of Concord 4.A.1)

You appear to know the English at some level. Take some time and use Google (or whatever) to look up the words "must" "certainly "without" "all" "doubt"

'Comport" or "collate" as much as your heart desires.
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
"For it is by grace you are saved, through faith--and that is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and not by works, so no one may boast."

"He saved us, NOT on account of deeds we have done in righteousness, but on account of HIS MERCY."

No one is arguing that.

My point centers here:

"Which is a guise to the reality the Lutherans believe "true faith" is a reference to a faith without works(what the scriptures refer to as dead faith, is "true faith" in Lutheran theology).

IOW--"true faith" LEADS to good works--but works are not part of the "true faith" in obtaining salvation, in Lutheran theology. One is saved through this "true faith"--or, this faith without works.

Wow. What the Bible labels a dead faith--the Lutherans preach is a saving faith.

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

So, Bonnie--in Lutheran theology--does "true faith" include works--as an integral component?

True faith inevitably leads to good works of love, done by the person BECAUSE HE IS SAVED, not to GET saved.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No one is arguing that.

My point centers here:

"Which is a guise to the reality the Lutherans believe "true faith" is a reference to a faith without works(what the scriptures refer to as dead faith, is "true faith" in Lutheran theology).

IOW--"true faith" LEADS to good works--but works are not part of the "true faith" in obtaining salvation, in Lutheran theology. One is saved through this "true faith"--or, this faith without works.

Wow. What the Bible labels a dead faith--the Lutherans preach is a saving faith.

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

So, Bonnie--in Lutheran theology--does "true faith" include works--as an integral component?

https://forums.carm.org/goto/post?id=63970
Yes you are arguing against Eph. 2:8-10--aren't you? Because we have said a living faith LEADS TO DOING GOOD WORKS--doesn't it, dberrie? Isn't that what vs. 10 is about?

For we are GOD'S WORKMANSHIP, created IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

What does "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" mean, dberrie? WHO has prepared us to do them? WHO enables us to walk in them? Care to answer these simple questions? Or will you run away from answering them, yet again? Even though we have answered YOU about this umpteen times on here--and I have archived some posts from the past that prove we did!

Can a dead faith enable us to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation? Yes or no?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Yes you are arguing against Eph. 2:8-10--aren't you? Because we have said a living faith LEADS TO DOING GOOD WORKS-

That's the point I am addressing.

In Lutheran theology--it is "living faith" before any works, as "living faith" is a faith without works. That's what the Lutherans claim one is saved through--a faith without works.

IOW--what the Biblical NT labels as a faith which is dead--the Lutherans claim is a "living faith"--which one is saved through. (a faith without works)

What does "created IN Christ Jesus for good works" mean, dberrie?

And yet--the Lutherans preach one is saved independent of the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ. (works).

Could you explain how one is saved independent of fulfilling the very measure one is created for?

Can a dead faith enable us to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation? Yes or no?

NO. That's a Lutheran claim--not a Biblical one.

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Bonnie--would you care to explain to us how you fit that into Lutheran theology?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I cant understand the difference between Lutheran and Catholic for this case.

The difference is--Lutherans put up this false facade which leads one to believe they have a theology which is Biblical. The Catholics can support their theology as Biblical--the Lutherans fail miserably.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Hi Tert--this is one terrific sermon, which I have put down on here before, but the minister who wrote it kinda made the same observation:

Reformation – “Don’t Jump!” – Romans 3:19-28 – 10/27/19 | Lutheran Church of the Resurrection (lcrwtvl.org)

I have posted most of it on here and the next post:



ALL fall short. ALL, no exceptions. NO works of ours will keep us from "falling short." Not tithing, not temple works, not saying so many "Hail Marys", not doing penance, not doing this good deed or that good deed because "ALL have sinned and fallen short"!




Continued in next post.
I followed the link. I saw your avatar there and I read the whole page excellent stuff. You know what I'm Say now don't you?;)Thanks again Bonnie! I think this is the first time I viewed this forum looks like here is a lot of good stuff here. I'll have to stick around a bit and check it out.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The difference is--Lutherans put up this false facade which leads one to believe they have a theology which is Biblical. The Catholics can support their theology as Biblical--the Lutherans fail miserably.
But that is just your opinion--isn't it? You really do not know what wectruly believe, do you? Since you completely ignore all of the verses about salvation by grace/faith and NOT by works--don't you? Which we Lutherans do NOT ignore, do we?

"For it is by grace you have been saved, THROUGH faith....and NOT by works, so no one may boast."
"He saved us, NOT on account of works we have done in righteousness, but on account of His MERCY."
"For by NO works of the law will any flesh be justified."

We completely understand that a true and living faith will express itself in works of love...but those works do not save us, ascPaul has written, but are the proof to others that we have a true faith....but you just refuse to getmthat, don't you?

"The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those of us who are being saved, it is the POWER OF GOD."

Without the Holy Spirit, one cannot understand the true Gospel message...It is foolishness to them...isn't it?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
I followed the link. I saw your avatar there and I read the whole page excellent stuff. You know what I'm Say now don't you?;)Thanks again Bonnie! I think this is the first time I viewed this forum looks like here is a lot of good stuff here. I'll have to stick around a bit and check it out.
Thst minister writes some terrific sermons. Another great one is about the parable of the pharisee and publican in the temple....I will see if I can find it for you, if you are interested.

Here it is: http://lcrwtvl.org/2016/10/pentecost-23-self-righteousness-and-contempt-luke-189-14-102316/

All about those who trust in their own works to be saved, instead of Jesus' WORKS done on our behalf, and done perfectly. He cuts to the chase
here:
If we think that the way to impress God is to JUSTIFY OURSELVES, then we will always choose to focus on the ‘good works’ that we do and the ‘bad works’ that we could have done but didn’t. And just to make our case a bit stronger, it’s always helpful to compare ourselves to someone whom we view as being ‘less’ or ‘lower’ or ‘worse’ that we are. If we think that the way to impress God is to JUSTIFY OURSELVES. SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS AND CONTEMPT FOR OTHERS ALWAYS GO HAND-IN-HAND.

And the reason that we say that this is WRONG, is that it fails to take God as His Word. Through His Word, He tells us that He expects us to be holy and righteous in His sight, and He will not settle for one spec less. And through the SAME WORD, He says, "and I promise that I will make you holy, as I the Lord your God am holy, through My Son’s all-sufficient sacrifice for you on the cross. For His sake and His sake alone, I forgive you all of your sins and declare you righteous before Me."

Ultimately, those who add to the perfect works of Christ Jesus to save us just do NOT fully trust Him to do so. They cannot and will not understand that good works done out of love for others are the RESULT of a true faith, the EFFECT, CAUSED by a true, living faith. That is what "with" means--"accompanied by." So, a faith NOT accompanied by good works is dead--but a faith that IS accompanied by works of love is alive and true--but that does not mean those works save us. It is this:

Grace/faith = salvation + good works

Works righteous groups have this:

Faith + works = grace + salvation.

They put the cart before the horse. But the "horse" pulls the "cart." The cart neither pulls nor pushes the horse!
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
That's the point I am addressing.

In Lutheran theology--it is "living faith" before any works, as "living faith" is a faith without works. That's what the Lutherans claim one is saved through--a faith without works.

IOW--what the Biblical NT labels as a faith which is dead--the Lutherans claim is a "living faith"--which one is saved through. (a faith without works)



And yet--the Lutherans preach one is saved independent of the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ. (works).

Could you explain how one is saved independent of fulfilling the very measure one is created for?



NO. That's a Lutheran claim--not a Biblical one.

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Bonnie--would you care to explain to us how you fit that into Lutheran theology?
How can a faith that enables us to believe in Jesus Christ and trust in HIM for our salvation be "dead"? Faith is a gift,right? So, does God give us dead gifts?

What does Paul mean when he writes, "For we are God's workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them"?

1. Whose workmanship are we?
2. Who has created us IN Christ Jesus? What do you think Paul means by that--in your own words?
3. Who has prepared us to DO good works?
4. Who enables us to DO them?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
How can a faith that enables us to believe in Jesus Christ and trust in HIM for our salvation be "dead"? Faith is a gift,right?

The gifts of God ENABLES us--but we are held accountable as to what we do with those gifts--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness":


Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Please do note they were all His servants to begin with.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The gifts of God ENABLES us--but we are held accountable as to what we do with those gifts--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness":


Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Please do note they were all His servants to begin with.

Why did you ignore my questions and refuse to answer them?

Who is the Author and PERFECTER of our faith? IN WHOM do we do our works of love?
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
My 2 cents is that these CARM discussions between members of different persuasions are typically wasted bandwidth. The only person typically benefiting is oneself, as we seek to explain our our point of view. Whether it's Lutheranism, Calvinism, Mormonism, Romanism... each has their own systematic theology, so it's sort of like duel operating systems.

Each person has this goal of presenting verses that we think don't work in someone else's systematic understanding of the Bible. That's why I think dberrie keeps posting the same stuff over and over and over (also included in his posts is more than a hint of hostility towards Bonnie... as was documented on the old boards). But Lutherans have a theological understanding of the relationship of faith and works, dberrie continually ignores this.
Well said and excellent observation. I've given this quite a bit of thought in your post clarifies a few things for me. That hint of hostility thing is definitely not cool.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
You see sounds? You are an amazing person! I only hear them. I think its called synethesia when people see sounds. Then again, I know quite a number of people that have taken acid while listening to music and describe a number of experiences. If you're able to look at a computer screen and see the sound of crickets... that is the most amazing thing... could easily qualify in Pentecostal circles as a miracle.
Only if you have an interpreter to interpret what the crickets are saying.
The Sound of Silence
And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why did you ignore my questions and refuse to answer them?

Who is the Author and PERFECTER of our faith? IN WHOM do we do our works of love?

Because I don't see any connection between your questions--and the points made by the posted scriptures. If you feel there is a connection, which will vindicate Lutheran theology--please feel free to make it.

Meanwhile--

The gifts of God ENABLES us--but we are held accountable as to what we do with those gifts--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness":

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Please do note they were all His servants to begin with.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Because I don't see any connection between your questions--and the points made by the posted scriptures. If you feel there is a connection, which will vindicate Lutheran theology--please feel free to make it.

Meanwhile--

The gifts of God ENABLES us--but we are held accountable as to what we do with those gifts--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness":

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Please do note they were all His servants to begin with.
Well, that is YOUR problem if you close your mind and refuse to see the "connection" because my Christians friends have no trouble seeing it--do they? But then, if you cannot see the connection then that is because of this:

1 Corinthians 2:14 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Now-- WHAT does it mean--in your own words--to "be created IN Christ Jesus for good works"?
 
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