Lutheran theology

Redeemed

Well-known member
Well, that is YOUR problem if you close your mind and refuse to see the "connection" because my Christians friends have no trouble seeing it--do they? But then, if you cannot see the connection then that is because of this:



Now-- WHAT does it mean--in your own words--to "be created IN Christ Jesus for good works"?
I can see it clear!:cool:My life in the truth is so bright I have to wear shades
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I can see it clear!:cool:My life in the truth is so bright I have to wear shades
Hah! Yes, it isn't exactly rocket science, is it? What is so hard to understand about doing good works of love IN salvation, because we are ALREADY SAVED, instead of doing them FOR salvation? And that God enables us to do these good works; and indeed, He has prepared us to do them?

Again, it is all God's doing--good thing, too, as we would botch it all!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"This is the work of God--that you believe on Him Whom God has sent."

Bonnie--Tertiumquid stated works--not work--are integral to saving faith, IE--

Tertiumquid said: Of course works are integral to saving faith!

You agreed with Tertiumquid.

Please list what WORKS you believe are integral to saving faith. (cricket choir--prepare to sing)

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
And you can “comport” this while you’re busy at it: salvation is completely by works... the perfect works of Jesus Christ.

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--as I have stated before, that those are the ONLY works that save us! And save us completely!
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Whatever happened to faith?



Are you now claiming faith has nothing to do with salvation? There is no such thing as "saving faith"? That's quite a back peddle.
"Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace." (Luke 7:50)

What did Jesus actually say saved the woman? What was the exact word that He used?

I believe Tert means that faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross--His "works"--and did completely and perfectly is what saves us, but he can clarify if I am incorrect, can't he?
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
"Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace." (Luke 7:50)

What did Jesus actually say saved the woman? What was the exact word that He used?

I believe Tert means that faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross--His "works"--and did completely and perfectly is what saves us, but he can clarify if I am incorrect, can't he?
Bonnie: we're interacting with a cultist... clarifications, distinctions, exegesis, systematic theology... none of it maters to a cultist that's enslaved to sin and has a hatred for the Scriptures.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Bonnie: we're interacting with a cultist... clarifications, distinctions, exegesis, systematic theology... none of it maters to a cultist that's enslaved to sin and has a hatred for the Scriptures.
Bonnie: we're interacting with a cultist... clarifications, distinctions, exegesis, systematic theology... none of it maters to a cultist that's enslaved to sin and has a hatred for the Scriptures.
This is most certainly true. What you wrote was intuitively obvious to me, as it would be to any true Christian, but I thought I would put it down, anyway.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace." (Luke 7:50)

What did Jesus actually say saved the woman? What was the exact word that He used?

I believe Tert means that faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross--His "works"--and did completely and perfectly is what saves us, but he can clarify if I am incorrect, can't he?

Tertiumquid testified works are integral to "saving faith"--and now backs up, IMO--seeing that just can't be comported to faith alone theology.

And--that is where the discussions usually leads---a claim by the faith alone adherents that works are integral to saving faith--and when asked to identify those works--they renege, and then claim the person asking is a cultists-and doesn't believe in the Bible! Yeah--right.

First--the Lutherans might want to start with aligning their theology with the Biblical text:

Philippians 2:12---King James Version
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Wow. What the Bible labels a dead faith--the Lutherans preach is a saving faith.
let's see if you keep running from this:
"Can you clearly answer this simple question
Is the faith that God gives dead and useless or living and effective?"


I did not ask if it was good: I am asking if it is a living and effective faith


Is your answer that the a God -given faith is lifeless until we give it life?
and it is useless (has no effect) until we give it a use?

IOW: do you believe the Faith from God is a big nothing burger and has no effect on those those who receive it


or just run to another thread... again

formally known as Tester
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
let's see if you keep running from this:
"Can you clearly answer this simple question
Is the faith that God gives dead and useless or living and effective?"


I did not ask if it was good: I am asking if it is a living and effective faith

The Savior testified His servants will be judged in accordance with what one does with the gifts He gives them--either to the "joy of thy Lord"--or--"outer darkness:

Matthew 25:14-30----King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The parable does not label His gifts either living or dead--but His "goods". Whether they are "living" unto receiving the Lord's grace--is dependent upon one does with the gifts.

The question is--how does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
The question is--how does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
It "fits" by looking at the countless posts that have already answered "the question."

As a child I had a Winnie the Pooh record that used to get stuck on the Tigger song. it would repeat over and over...

"But the most wonderful thing about Tiggers Is I'm the only one I'm the only one I'm the only one I'm the only one I'm the only one, etc."
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Tertiumquid testified works are integral to "saving faith"--and now backs up, IMO--seeing that just can't be comported to faith alone theology.

And--that is where the discussions usually leads---a claim by the faith alone adherents that works are integral to saving faith--and when asked to identify those works--they renege, and then claim the person asking is a cultists-and doesn't believe in the Bible! Yeah--right.

First--the Lutherans might want to start with aligning their theology with the Biblical text:

Philippians 2:12---King James Version
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Let's see if you understand the difference between OUR works helping to save us, or JESUS' perfect works done on the cross saving us, by grace through faith in HIM....DO YOU? Because it is Jesus's WORKS that save us, NOT our own! And that is what Tert wrote, isn't it?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The Savior testified His servants will be judged in accordance with what one does with the gifts He gives them--either to the "joy of thy Lord"--or--"outer darkness:

Matthew 25:14-30----King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The parable does not label His gifts either living or dead--but His "goods". Whether they are "living" unto receiving the Lord's grace--is dependent upon one does with the gifts.

The question is--how does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
So, what k8nd of faith enables someone to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation, great and free? Even before the person hadps had a chance to do any good works? Livimg or dead?

HOW is one able to USE this gift of salvation, to bring forth the fruit of salvation?

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared in advance for us TO DO, so that We may walk in them."

What does it mean to be created IN CHRIST JESUS for good works? And WHO enables us to DO them?

Answer these questions honestly and correctly and you will see how the verses you quoted fit in with Lutheran theology--won't you?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
It "fits" by looking at the countless posts that have already answered "the question."

That's just a claim. And it's usually the claim made--when the Lutherans cannot fit Biblical theology with Lutheran theology.

The reality is--the Lutherans cannot fit the testimony of the the scriptures with Lutheran theology:

Matthew 25:14-30----King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Care to engage the scriptures themselves--and explain for us how one can be judged according to what they did with His gifts--and that for the "joy of thy lord" or "outer darkness"--fits Lutheran theology?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
That's just a claim. And it's usually the claim made--when the Lutherans cannot fit Biblical theology with Lutheran theology.

The reality is--the Lutherans cannot fit the testimony of the the scriptures with Lutheran theology:

Matthew 25:14-30----King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Care to engage the scriptures themselves--and explain for us how one can be judged according to what they did with His gifts--and that for the "joy of thy lord" or "outer darkness"--fits Lutheran theology?
But that claim is 100% true, that I can attest to, Isn't it, dberrie? And so can others on here and on the Mormon board--can't they, dberrie?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Let's see if you understand the difference between OUR works helping to save us, or JESUS' perfect works done on the cross saving us, by grace through faith in HIM....DO YOU? Because it is Jesus's WORKS that save us, NOT our own! And that is what Tert wrote, isn't it?

It was to this post Tertiumquid responded that works are integral to faith:

dberrie2020 said: That only connects works as being integral with saving faith:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Faith alone theology excludes all works in obtaining salvation, so linking the works with saving faith can't be meshed with faith alone theology.

Tertiumquid--one can claim your explanation a thousand times--but it still is a dog that just ain't gonna hunt. And Lutherans have not engaged that reality.

Tertiumquid said: Of course works are integral to saving faith!

It was after that --- he back peddled.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"Good works must certainly and without all doubt follow a true faith (provided only it not be a dead but a living faith), as fruits of a good tree" (Formula of Concord 4.A.1)

No one has argued whether works follow salvation--of course they do. That's part of enduring to the end.

IOW--in obtaining salvation--is salvation by grace through a faith with works--or through a faith without works?
 
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