Lutheran theology

[dberrie2020]

But that claim is 100% true, that I can attest to, Isn't it, dberrie? And so can others on here and on the Mormon board--can't they, dberrie?

IMO--truth isn't established by what anyone on here attests to--or the Mormonism board, and neither are they the standard of truth.

But it is found in the scriptures:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Bonnie--your claims aren't going to mesh your theology with those Biblical testimonies.

 

[1Thess521]

The question is--how does one fit that into Lutheran theology?

the question you are avoiding :
Is a God given faith living or dead?

 

[Tertiumquid]

IMO--truth isn't established by what anyone on here attests to--or the Mormonism board, and neither are they the standard of truth.

But it is found in the scriptures:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Bonnie--your claims aren't going to mesh your theology with those Biblical testimonies.

Those verses are descriptive of someone with saving faith. There's your "comport" for the thousandth time (or this time, it's "mesh").

 

[dberrie2020]

Those verses are descriptive of someone with saving faith. There's your "comport" for the thousandth time (or this time, it's "mesh").

That only connects walking in the light, bringing forth fruits, fruits unto holiness, etc--with "saving faith"--as integral components.

Tertiumquid--the Lutherans exclude all of those things in obtaining salvation.

Why is it--you claimed works were integral to saving faith--and then--when confronted with the fact of Lutherans excluding works from faith in obtaining salvation--you back peddled, and then claimed works were the result of faith, and that it was the works of Christ, etc. Baloney.

You and the Lutherans keep waffling to and fro, like a drunk man stumbling in the night.

So--which is it? Is the faith which constitutes "saving faith"--a faith which includes our works of obedience to Jesus Christ(doing His commandments)--or does "faith" exclude those works--in obtaining salvation?

That's the questions which constitute the very post and pillar of faith alone theology, and if you can't answer those questions above--then you can't defend, nor preach faith alone theology very effectively.

 

[1Thess521]

So--which is it? Is the faith which constitutes "saving faith"--a faith which includes our works of obedience to Jesus Christ(doing His commandments)--or does "faith" exclude those works--in obtaining salvation?

False dichotomy
The correct phrasing would look like this:
Faith which constitutes "saving faith"--a faith which WILL include our works of obedience to Jesus Christ(doing His commandments)-
and
"faith" excludes those works--at the moment of salvation
are true

 

[Bonnie]

False dichotomy
The correct phrasing would look like this:
Faith which constitutes "saving faith"--a faith which WILL include our works of obedience to Jesus Christ(doing His commandments)-
and
"faith" excludes those works--at the moment of salvation
are true

Exactly. It is grace/faith in Christ Jesus = salvation + works.

In works-righteous groups, it is faith in Jesus + works = grace + salvation

 

[Bonnie]

That only connects walking in the light, bringing forth fruits, fruits unto holiness, etc--with "saving faith"--as integral components.

Tertiumquid--the Lutherans exclude all of those things in obtaining salvation.

Why is it--you claimed works were integral to saving faith--and then--when confronted with the fact of Lutherans excluding works from faith in obtaining salvation--you back peddled, and then claimed works were the result of faith, and that it was the works of Christ, etc. Baloney.

You and the Lutherans keep waffling to and fro, like a drunk man stumbling in the night.

So--which is it? Is the faith which constitutes "saving faith"--a faith which includes our works of obedience to Jesus Christ(doing His commandments)--or does "faith" exclude those works--in obtaining salvation?

That's the questions which constitute the very post and pillar of faith alone theology, and if you can't answer those questions above--then you can't defend, nor preach faith alone theology very effectively.

Haven't we all said that a saving faith leads to walking in the Light and bringing forth good fruits?

 

[Tertiumquid]

You and the Lutherans keep waffling to and fro, like a drunk man stumbling in the night.

As a teenager, I thought jazz was stupid. It was because I didn’t understand the music. Now I have pictures of Miles Davis and John Coltrane hanging on my wall, and most of the music I liked as a teenager was...in actuality... kinda stupid.

 

[dberrie2020]

As a teenager, I thought jazz was stupid. It was because I didn’t understand the music. Now I have pictures of Miles Davis and John Coltrane hanging on my wall, and most of the music I liked as a teenager was...in actuality... kinda stupid.

That's an interesting story, and I appreciate you sharing that.

But it won't help Lutherans adapt their theology to the Biblical beat:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Pretty jazzy verses, IMO. So--hang that on your wall--and one might believe it's kinda stupid to discount those verses when trying to defend a theology which in no way can be meshed with the Biblical witness.

 

[dberrie2020]

Haven't we all said that a saving faith leads to walking in the Light and bringing forth good fruits?

That only confirms you exclude walking in the light--and good fruits--as being integral to saving faith.(faith without works)

 

[Tertiumquid]

That's an interesting story, and I appreciate you sharing that.

But it won't help Lutherans adapt their theology to the Biblical beat:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Pretty jazzy verses, IMO. So--hang that on your wall--and one might believe it's kinda stupid to discount those verses when trying to defend a theology which in no way can be meshed with the Biblical witness.

There are no verses being discounted: they are descriptive of one with saving faith.

 

[dberrie2020]

There are no verses being discounted: they are descriptive of one with saving faith.

I agree. But then--I don't have a theology which separates out all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--from "saving faith". What the Bible labels a dead faith--the Lutherans claim is a saving faith.

 

[Tertiumquid]

I agree. But then--I don't have a theology which separates out all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--from "saving faith". What the Bible labels a dead faith--the Lutherans claim is a saving faith.

The separation is in your mind. A living faith produces acts of obedience.

 

[1Thess521]

I agree. But then--I don't have a theology which separates out all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--from "saving faith". What the Bible labels a dead faith--the Lutherans claim is a saving faith.

then tell us: when is someone justified?

 

[Bonnie]

That only confirms you exclude walking in the light--and good fruits--as being integral to saving faith.(faith without works)

And this only confirms that you don't understand on a spiritual level that good fruits are the RESULT of a saving faith...do you? Nor do you seem to understand that the gift of faith that enables us to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior is not dead--unless you think God gives us dead gifts....?

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie2020 said: I agree. But then--I don't have a theology which separates out all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--from "saving faith". What the Bible labels a dead faith--the Lutherans claim is a saving faith.

The separation is in your mind. A living faith produces acts of obedience.

Fair enough.

If it is just in my mind--then you won't mind revealing to us--what works you add to constitute a "living faith"?

Cricket choir--rosin up those bows.

 

[Bonnie]

Fair enough.

If it is just in my mind--then you won't mind revealing to us--what works you add to constitute a "living faith"?

Cricket choir--rosin up those bows.

I add no works at all to my salvation, since it is "not by works"....you should know that by now, shouldn't you?

So, is the faith that God gives us that enables us to believe and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation living or dead?

 

[dberrie2020]

I add no works at all to my salvation, since it is "not by works"....you should know that by now, shouldn't you?

Thank you Bonnie--for that transparency--and a Merry Christmas to you.

So, Lutherans--there we have it--the "saving faith"--"true faith"--- the Lutherans preach unto salvation--is a faith without works.

How do the Lutherans feel about that, IE--what the Biblical text labels as a faith which is dead--the Lutherans preach is a "saving faith"?

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Tertiumquid]

Fair enough.

If it is just in my mind--then you won't mind revealing to us--what works you add to constitute a "living faith"?

Cricket choir--rosin up those bows.

False paradigm. Works are not "added" to a living faith. They are the result of a living faith.

 

[Bonnie]

Thank you Bonnie--for that transparency--and a Merry Christmas to you.

Here we have it folks--the Mormon once again has no idea what a true and living faith IS. As Tert wrote "works are not ADDED to a living faith--they are RESULT OF IT." Do you know the difference between CAUSE and RESULT?
.

So, Lutherans--there we have it--the "saving faith"--"true faith"--- the Lutherans preach unto salvation--is a faith without works.

That is false, dberrie--saving faith IS alive and leads to doing good works, but then, we have explained that to you ad infinitum on here--haven't we? And you have yet to answer this simple question, that both I and 1 Thess have asked you--is the faith that enables someone to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior alive or dead? Can a dead faith enable a person to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation? Does our heavenly Father give dead gifts to us?

How do the Lutherans feel about that, IE--what the Biblical text labels as a faith which is dead--the Lutherans preach is a "saving faith"?

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Do you know what "without" means? It means "NOT accompanied by". So, a faith NOT accompanied by good works is dead--but a true faith will RESULT in doing good works in Christ Jesus our Lord--won't it?

Now, since faith itself is "the gift of God," is the faith that enables us to believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation dead or alive?