Lutheran theology

Bonnie

Super Member
False paradigm. Works are not "added" to a living faith. They are the result of a living faith.
So simple, but those not indwelt by the HS cannot understand the difference between the two, on a spiritual level, for the difference can only be discerned BY the indwelling Holy Spirit--and believed.
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
You might want to relay that to the other Tertiumquid:



Here's where it gets a little wanky. Could you explain how works are integral to "saving faith"--but yet--aren't added to a "living faith"?
Leg muscles are integral to walking, but walking isn't something that's an addition to leg muscles.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You might want to relay that to the other Tertiumquid:



Here's where it gets a little wanky. Could you explain how works are integral to "saving faith"--but yet--aren't added to a "living faith"?
And what works save us? Tert told us here:
"And you can “comport” this while you’re busy at it: salvation is completely by works... the perfect works of Jesus Christ."
IF you quote this again, try NOT to cut off the last part, the way you did the first time...okay?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Leg muscles are integral to walking, but walking isn't something that's an addition to leg muscles.
Exactly! Walking is what leg muscles enable us to DO! Just as faith is what enables us to do good works pleasing to God, for "without faith, it is impossible to please Him."
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Leg muscles are integral to walking, but walking isn't something that's an addition to leg muscles.

Let's say leg muscles=faith, and walking=works, then---

Faith is integral to works, but works isn't an addition to faith.

If faith and works are integral to one another, and works aren't an addition to faith--then that just adds up to mean they are a part of each other all along, not an added component. That's not faith alone theology.

In Lutheranism---works don't even occur until after salvation. In obtaining salvation, there are no works. How can works be integral to faith--when works aren't even present, in obtaining salvation? If works come later, after the faith unto salvation--then how can works not come as an addition to faith?

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Exactly! Walking is what leg muscles enable us to DO! Just as faith is what enables us to do good works pleasing to God, for "without faith, it is impossible to please Him."

I don't find anyone arguing against faith enabling us to do good works--it's the part where eternal life occurs to the exclusion of the good works--that is being questioned. Faith without works(dead faith)=salvation. That's a false theology.

In Lutheran theology--it's a faith without works(dead faith) which one is saved through.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Do the Lutherans link keeping the commandments with entering into life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Did the guy walk away in joy or sorrow? Sorrow. Sorrow because he was a liar who by his speech made God the liar.

The artist formerly and perhaps once again will be known as bi bear.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
This is most certainly true, what you wrote. Before God Almighty, it is the truth! In fact, here is one such instance where I dealt with these verses on here, from back in February:










By the way, did you see my other thread on here, about that Martin Chemnitz quote? I had a link to it, but the link no longer works. I wish I had saved the quote, but I didn't. Silly me....would you have any idea where to find it? I think Nic or BJ had it on here on the boards last summer. I think I have Nic's email address, but not BJ's. Thanks .
Hi Bonnie,

What is the gist of the quote?

BJ
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Did the guy walk away in joy or sorrow? Sorrow. Sorrow because he was a liar who by his speech made God the liar.

The artist formerly and perhaps once again will be known as bi bear.
Beej!! Welcome back! I hope you are well and had a blessed Christmas!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Hi Bonnie,

What is the gist of the quote?

BJ
It is in post no. 7 on this thread, Matthew 19. I dealt with it many times over the past few years, but the one quoted here is the only one I archived. But Jesus, rather than argue with the young man, gently showed him that he really had NOT kept all of the commandments at all. He put wealth over God, thus breaking the first and greatest commandment.

So, we cannot be saved by keeping the commandments because none of us can, not by a longshot. And God does not say TRY to keep the commandments but KEEP them. So, there is ONLY one way to keep the commandments to perfectly, in God's eyes--I think I said how in my post no. 7 on here.
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
I don't find a single verse which states God commands perfection in keeping the commandments--unless it is a progression to that point.
Have you considered the section of scripture from which you have drawn the quote? If *you* would be *perfect* then...

Hear O Israel...
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
It is in post no. 7 on this thread, Matthew 19. I dealt with it many times over the past few years,but the one quoted here is the only one I archived. But Jesus, rather than argue with the you guys man,gently showed him that he really had NOT kept all of the commandments at all. He put wealth over God, thus breaking the first and greatest commandment.

So, we cannot be saved by keeping the commandments because none of us can, not by a longshot. And God does not say TRY to keep the commandments but KEEP them. So, there is ONLY 9ne way to keep the commandments to perfectly, in God's eyes--I think I said how in my post no. 7 on here. Seeyou think think.
Sorry, I asked an ambiguous question. I meant the Chemnitz quote but I see now that you found it.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Did the guy walk away in joy or sorrow? Sorrow. Sorrow because he was a liar who by his speech made God the liar.

The artist formerly and perhaps once again will be known as bi bear.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how any of that relates to the Savior's connection of keeping the commandments to eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

IOW--even if one believes the young ruler was a liar--God isn't. It was Jesus who gave the testimony found above--not the young ruler.

Next--how does anyone mesh the above testimony with Lutheran theology?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
LOL. No you're not.
Exactly. Besides, I did explain, on my post no.7 on here,but my response was ignored--as usual. Here was part of my response:

"...for whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend on one point, he is guilty of all.(KJV James 2:10)"
SO--what say you, dberrie? How are YOU doing in the perfect keeping of God's commandments/laws department?

There are only TWO ways to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes, dberrie. The first is by keeping God's commandments perfectly all the time, never stumbling in even one point, for as long as one lives. That is what Jesus was telling the rich young ruler. But He demonstrated to him that he didn't even keep the first and most important commandment--loving God above all else. The young man loved his wealth more--he broke the first commandment and therefore, broke ALL of them.

BUT--there is a SECOND way to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes. Do YOU know that way, dberrie?

Romans 4:4-5 English Standard Version (ESV)

"4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,"

By our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and did PERFECTLY are we declared "not guilty" and righteous in God's eyes--for Jesus' righteousness is then credited to us, by our faith in Him and His finished work on the cross.

Which do you think is more sure, dberrie--depending upon your OWN IMperfect keeping of God's commandments--because you seem to think that is what Jesus wants us to do: keep God's commandments in order to be saved--OR depending upon Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments in our stead and for our sake? Which is then credited to us BY FAITH. Which is more sure? More dependable?

Note especially the last paragraph--which explains the only way we can keep God's commandments in this life. But that explanation is always ignored--have you noticed?

I have explained this many times, on here, and on the Mormon board--but I get the usual "But how does that...?"or "But that just..." ad nauseum.
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
Exactly. Besides, I did explain, on my post no.7 on here,but my response was ignored--as usual. Here was part of my response:



Note especially the last paragraph--which explains the only way we can keep God's commandments in this life. But that explanation is always ignored--have you noticed?

I have explained this many times, on here, and on the Mormon board--but I get the usual "But how does that...?"or "But that just..." ad nauseum.
Don’t forget “comport”
 
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