Lutheran theology

Dropkick

New Member
edit per mod

Everyone of your objections have been answered many times.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
The only reaction I have seen is the sound of crickets. It shouldn't be so painful to engage the scriptures.

Care to engage the OP, IE---

Do the Lutherans link keeping the commandments with entering into life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
But did you not read my post no. 7 on here, where I DID answer your post and deal with your Bible verse? Not once but many times over the years? As TQ and Dropkick have pointed out, as my witnesses? Was my post "crickets?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I really agree with that, as it allows one to dig deep, and often-- into the Biblical text. One begins to study--instead of just read the scriptures.

Personally--I haven't found any Lutherans that are willing to engage my posted Biblical NT scriptures. The only engagement is, for the main--"we already answered that", "out of context", "you don't understand", etc.

The Bible doesn't seem to generate a lot of interest here.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How do Lutherans comport that to their theology?
Don't you know your accusation here--that Lutherans are unwilling to engage you with your quoted Bible verses--is totally, 100% untrue? As TQ, I, and Dropkick have attested to?

How can you forget so easily what we have written to you over the years on here, and used Bible verses to back up our arguments? As I used Bible verses in post no. 7 on here, in reply to your Matthew 19 verses? Do you forget that easily? Do you think if you quote them often enough, our responses will change?

Would you like to see some responses I have saved where we did engage you in discussing your bible verses? Could it be the reason our response is "we already answered that" and "out of context" and "you don't understand" is BECAUSE THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Hi Dropkick! Glad you came back! I wish I had some way to let BJBear know the boards are up, but I don't have his email address. I think I have Nic's, though, and should drop him a line. Maybe take your observation to the Mormon board, if you feel so inclined, since it would be off topic to discuss it here.
I tried emailing Nic, but my emails got bounced back, so he must have changed his email address. I miss him and BJ.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I don't find a single verse which states God commands perfection in keeping the commandments--unless it is a progression to that point.

We wouldn't need grace if we never violated a commandment. There is a command to keep the commandments--but with repentance and change as our companions. God's grace is always with those who are willing to repent and change.

Lutherans throw the link between keeping the commandments and God's grace unto life, out the window. They believe, and preach-- obtaining eternal life hasn't the first act of obedience to God in it's makeup. That's the greatest lie satan ever pawned upon mankind:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Why would anyone obey a God in whom they did NOT believe?
Is your memory so short that you have forgotten all the times I have posted the following to you about this?


Saving faith is obedience

Commenting on our expression in Rom 1:5, Anders Nygren writes,

One receives in faith that which God proffers us through Christ. This is “the obedience of faith.” (Romans, p. 55)
Here is a fair treatment of the text. Paul is simply speaking of the obedience which is faith.

It is biblically correct to speak of faith as an act of obedience. After all, God commands us to believe the Gospel (e.g., Acts 16:31).

Support for this view is seen in many passages. Acts 6:7 says that “many of the priests were obedient to the faith.” Romans 10:16 and 2 Thess 1:8 speak of obeying or disobeying the Gospel. See also, John 3:36; 6:28-29; 1 Pet 1:2, 22; 2:7-8; and Acts 5:32.

CONCLUSION​

Jesus called for people to believe in Him. Thus whenever anyone believes in Him, he is obeying Him. Saving faith is an act of obedience.

So, you should not be bothered by the idea of faith as an act of obedience.

The obedience of faith spoken of in Rom 1:5 and 16:26 does not refer to obeying all that God has commanded. No one but the Lord Jesus has done that. Rather, it refers specifically to obeying the command to believe the Gospel. If you’ve done that, you’ve exercised the obedience of faith.

Don't you know that no one can be obedient to God from the heart until and unless he has been made a new creation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord? Don't you know that simply BELIEVING in Jesus Christ is an act of obedience? Don't you know that obeying God IS believing in HIs Son for salvation?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
edit per mod

Everyone of your objections have been answered many times.
Wit pretty much the same answer you just gave.

Care to engage the scripture?

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
But did you not read my post no. 7 on here, where I DID answer your post and deal with your Bible verse? Not once but many times over the years? As TQ and Dropkick have pointed out, as my witnesses? Was my post "crickets?
Yes--I could not find one iota of information how you fit Matthew19:16-19 into Lutheran theology. You rambled all over--with not the first direct answer.

So--maybe you could answer how you do fit the scripture into Lutheran theology?

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

IOW--how does a denomination--which preaches one obtains salvation without the first act of obedience to God--collate the Savior's witness connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why would anyone obey a God in whom they did NOT believe?
And how are you thinking that explains why the Savior connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--compared to your theology--which denies any acts of obedience in obtaining eternal life?

Is your memory so short that you have forgotten all the times I have posted the following to you about this?


Don't you know that no one can be obedient to God from the heart until and unless he has been made a new creation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord?
And how do you collate that with the witness of the Savior--which connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Bonnie--you pit yourself against the testimony of Christ, with all sorts of personal doctrines--which don't fit anywhere in the scriptures--and believe that one should believe your rationalizations--over the testimony of the Savior?

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Don't you know that simply BELIEVING in Jesus Christ is an act of obedience?
How are you relating that to the Savior's testimony of connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life? Are you thinking that somehow disconnects His testimony of the bond between keeping the commandments--and eternal life? How?

Please explain your rationale there.

Don't you know that obeying God IS believing in HIs Son for salvation?
Are you claiming keeping the commandments isn't obedience to Jesus Christ? That only belief constitutes obedience?

Bonnie--you spin a tall tale of rationalizing--but that cannot supplant what the Savior testified to:

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So, please tell us--is the love of God necessary for salvation to occur?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Maybe in the Lutheran world, but in the Mormon world... "all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." Isn't that great news????
Imagine that!! --connecting obedience to eternal life:

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Could that possibly be true to one who hold to Lutheran theology?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Wit pretty much the same answer you just gave.

Care to engage the scripture?

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
Care to read my post where I DID engage the scriptures you posted? Care to deal with what I wrote? Or will you just ignore it and pretend I never answered you, thus demonstrating Mormon debate tactics nos. 3-5 in my signature?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Imagine that!! --connecting obedience to eternal life:

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Could that possibly be true to one who hold to Lutheran theology?
Imagine that! Didn't you read what I posted about how BELIEVING the Gospel of Jesus Christ IS obeying it? Would you like me to repeat it for you, so that you can once again ignore it? And pretend that I never answered you, thus demonstrating Mormon debate tactics no. 4 in my signature? Here it is--again:

It is biblically correct to speak of faith as an act of obedience. After all, God commands us to believe the Gospel (e.g., Acts 16:31).

Support for this view is seen in many passages. Acts 6:7 says that “many of the priests were obedient to the faith.” Romans 10:16 and 2 Thess 1:8 speak of obeying or disobeying the Gospel. See also, John 3:36; 6:28-29; 1 Pet 1:2, 22; 2:7-8; and Acts 5:32.

CONCLUSION​

Jesus called for people to believe in Him. Thus whenever anyone believes in Him, he is obeying Him. Saving faith is an act of obedience.

So, you should not be bothered by the idea of faith as an act of obedience.


Do you not see where 2 Thess. 1:8 is mentioned?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Yes--I could not find one iota of information how you fit Matthew19:16-19 into Lutheran theology. You rambled all over--with not the first direct answer.

So--maybe you could answer how you do fit the scripture into Lutheran theology?

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

IOW--how does a denomination--which preaches one obtains salvation without the first act of obedience to God--collate the Savior's witness connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?
Why don't you read it again, without your Mormon glasses on? But OH--! I rambled all over?????????????????? And you don't? And you ALWAYS give direct answers to OUR questions???

Double standard, anyone????????????????????

Care to reread what I wrote about the Matthew 19 verses?

  • And do YOU obey ALL of God's commandments perfectly, 24/7, 365? Because remember what else James wrote:


    "For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend on one point, he is guilty of all.(KJV James 2:10)"

  • SO--what say you, dberrie? How are YOU doing in the perfect keeping of God's commandments/laws department?

    There are only TWO ways to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes, dberrie. The first is by keeping God's commandments perfectly all the time, never stumbling in even one point, for as long as one lives. That is what Jesus was telling the rich young ruler. But Jesus demonstrated to him that he didn't even keep the first and most important commandment--loving God above all else. The young man loved his wealth more--he broke the first commandment and therefore, broke ALL of them.

    BUT--there is a SECOND way to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes. Do YOU know that way, dberrie?


    Romans 4:4-5 English Standard Version (ESV)

    "4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,"


  • By our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and did PERFECTLY are we declared "not guilty" and righteous in God's eyes--for Jesus' righteousness is then credited to us, by our faith in Him and His finished work on the cross.

    Which do you think is more sure, dberrie--depending upon your OWN IMperfect keeping of God's commandments--because you seem to think that is what Jesus wants us to do: keep God's commandments perfectly in order to be saved--OR depending upon Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments in our stead and for our sake? Which is more sure? More dependable?

Which IS more sure in our salvation? OUR attempting to keep the commandments or having faith in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible, whose perfect keeping of the Law is credited to us by grace through faith in HIM, so that God sees Jesus' blood and righteousness covering us, making us clean?

 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Imagine that! Didn't you read what I posted about how BELIEVING the Gospel of Jesus Christ IS obeying it?
So--is the love of God part of the gospel?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I see where the scriptural reference is mentioned.

So--again--how do the Lutherans collate their theology with the Biblical testimony of keeping the commandments--when they preach the exclusion of all works in obtaining eternal life?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Is keeping the commandments part of obeying the gospel?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Again--is the love of God part of the gospel?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why don't you read it again, without your Mormon glasses on? But OH--! I rambled all over?????????????????? And you don't? And you ALWAYS give direct answers to OUR questions???

Double standard, anyone????????????????????

Care to reread what I wrote about the Matthew 19 verses?
  • And do YOU obey ALL of God's commandments perfectly, 24/7, 365?

Could you explain for us what I do--or don't do--has to do with the truthfulness of the Biblical witness?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Is your claim that if I keep the commandments--then the Biblical witness is true, and if I don't--the Biblical witness is false?

  • Because remember what else James wrote:


    "For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend on one point, he is guilty of all.(KJV James 2:10)"

We don't live under the Mosaic Law--and I'm not understanding your link to that--- and the testimony of the Savior:

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

How does one collate Lutheran theology to that testimonies of the Savior above?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
So--is the love of God part of the gospel?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


I see where the scriptural reference is mentioned.

So--again--how do the Lutherans collate their theology with the Biblical testimony of keeping the commandments--when they preach the exclusion of all works in obtaining eternal life?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Is keeping the commandments part of obeying the gospel?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Again--is the love of God part of the gospel?
How are we able to love God as we ought to? Do unbelievers love the one true God? Do they love Jesus Christ?

"We love HIM because He first loved us."
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
How are we able to love God as we ought to?

By keeping His commandments:

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Do unbelievers love the one true God? Do they love Jesus Christ?

I'm not sure how you are relating the position of the unbelievers-- to the testimony of the Savior--connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Perhaps you could explain that for us? And while you are at it--please explain how one would fit Matthew19:16-19 into Lutheran theology?

"We love HIM because He first loved us."

How does that preclude Christ's testimony of connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
By keeping His commandments:

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.



I'm not sure how you are relating the position of the unbelievers-- to the testimony of the Savior--connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Perhaps you could explain that for us? And while you are at it--please explain how one would fit Matthew19:16-19 into Lutheran theology?



How does that preclude Christ's testimony of connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?


Why would anyone who does NOT believe in Jesus want to obey His commandments for, supposedly, to earn eternal life?

And why do you fail to note what I have written about Matt. 19? Don't you know that NO ONE can keep God's commandments on his own? Don't you know there is ONLY one way to do so, in God's eyes? Don't you remember what Paul wrote? Why won't you deal with what I wrote here:

Romans 4:4-5 English Standard Version (ESV)

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
By our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and did PERFECTLY are we declared "not guilty" and righteous in God's eyes--for Jesus' righteousness is then credited to us, by our faith in Him and His finished work on the cross.

Which do you think is more sure, dberrie--depending upon your OWN IMperfect keeping of God's commandments--because you seem to think that is what Jesus wants us to do: keep God's commandments perfectly in order to be saved--or depending upon Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments in our stead and for our sake? Which is more sure? More dependable?

why won't you answer my simple question at the end? Is it that hard?

And remember what else Paul wrote?

Romans 8 New International Version (NIV)​

Life Through the Spirit​

8 Therefore, there is NOW NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

so, HOW are the righteous requirements of the Law--which would be obeying the commandments--fulfilled in us? By living in the flesh, or by living in the Spirit? Remember what Eph. 2:10 says?

For we are GOD'S workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, that we may walk in them."

So, do we obey the commandments FOR salvation orIN salvation? CAN we do anything to please God OUTSIDE of faith in Him? Remember what Hebrews says--that "without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD." Remember that verse?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why would anyone who does NOT believe in Jesus want to obey His commandments for,.....

How are you connecting those who do not believe in Christ--with His testimony connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Again--how does one collate that with Lutheran theology--which excludes all acts of obedience to keeping the commandments--with obtaining eternal life?
And why do you fail to note what I have written about Matt. 19? Don't you know that NO ONE can keep God's commandments on his own?

How does that point somehow address the Biblical testimony of God connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?

No one has advocated we do it alone.
Don't you know there is ONLY one way to do so, in God's eyes? Don't you remember what Paul wrote?

I'm aware of what Paul wrote:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So--could you please explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation above--without obeying the commandments?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

How does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why won't you deal with what I wrote here:
Romans 4:4-5 English Standard Version (ESV)

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

I'm not sure how you are relating this to the testimony of God connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life. Is this a challenge to God about His testimony?

Bonnie--two points here:

1) God justified all men of life in His Atonement--including the ungodly--as a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

2) Paul's point was Abraham didn't live under the Mosaic Law, but the gospel of Jesus Christ--and did not do those works which were added.

Paul never stated keeping the commandments was not connected to eternal life.

Paul was a master of the scriptures--and was aware of Abraham's obedience--and God's testimony concerning Abraham:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
 
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