Lutheran theology

dberrie2020

Well-known member
so, HOW are the righteous requirements of the Law--which would be obeying the commandments--fulfilled in us? By living in the flesh, or by living in the Spirit?

What is your evidence keeping the commandments is not living in the Spirit?

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

So--how does your point somehow compromise the testimony of the Savior--connecting keeping the commandments with the love of God?

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Is the love of God necessary for salvation to occur?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
So, do we obey the commandments FOR salvation orIN salvation?

Both.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


CAN we do anything to please God OUTSIDE of faith in Him?

What is your evidence that keeping the commandments is not integral to faith in Christ?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Remember what Hebrews says--that "without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD." Remember that verse?

What is your evidence faith is independent of keeping the commandments?

So--when you use the term "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
How are you connecting those who do not believe in Christ--with His testimony connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Again--how does one collate that with Lutheran theology--which excludes all acts of obedience to keeping the commandments--with obtaining eternal life?


How does that point somehow address the Biblical testimony of God connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?

No one has advocated we do it alone.


I'm aware of what Paul wrote:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So--could you please explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation above--without obeying the commandments?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

How does one fit that into Lutheran theology?
Why Do you keep ignoring what I write? Whycdo you ignore my answers, amd pretend I have never answered you, timecand time again? Are you that deperate to demonstrate the Mormon debate tactics in my signatur?

What is the only way to obey God's commandments? On our own? OR by having Jesus's perfect keeping of God's commandments credited to us By faith? Which is it, dberrie? Which is more sure? Which should we put our Faith in?

Gal. 6:15--neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
1 John 3: And this is His commandment: That we BELIEVE on His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He has commanded us.
Romans 13: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Both.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.




What is your evidence that keeping the commandments is not integral to faith in Christ?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



What is your evidence faith is independent of keeping the commandments?

So--when you use the term "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?
Why Do you keep repeating yourself? Why do you pretend I have not answered these questions many times for YEARS--as others on here and the Mormon board can testified to?

If A person is able to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, trusting in Him only for salvation, great and free, is that faith DEAD--before the person has a chance to do any good works, other than BELIEVE? Is this faith that enabled this person to BELIEVE living or dead? Since faith is a gift, does God give dead gifts to His children?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Do you not remember these from older boards?

Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

The fact is--there are Lutherans here on this board--which have used that phrase before--and on more than one occasion, that is:
"It's faith alone--but never a faith which is alone."
The question remains--what do Lutherans believe is added to a saving faith to prevent it from being alone?

Let's see - this'll be the umpteenth time that you've been told, and it went right over your head, and smashed against your paradigmatic wall.

The answer quite simply is: "the fruit of faith" - those things that Faith because of its intrinsic nature causes in the behavior of the one in whom FAITH DWELLS.

From another poster:

This is, of course the gist of the Book of James summed up in his examples - i.e. Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Put simply, James simply says that IF what you "CALL FAITH" produces NOTHING of practical value, then it's DEAD - NOT Biblical FAITH at all.

And another poster:

Works come as a result of faith (faith isn't alone it has good fruits with it) explained many times...
no we don't add anything. That faith....that saves....is not alone and we don't add anything to it. Faith comes with or receives the holy spirit, grace and good fruits...(good fruits are the outward sign of this faith) or good works. It's not alone God and his will , Grace and good works before him are part of faith. But it is the saving faith....that brings them.

So no it doesn't mean we are saved in dead faith. Dead faith is the lack of good fruit . Just like a tree. No one is saved with dead faith. Nothing is added to it but what comes with it is received upon having faith. Therefore it is not alone, but it is itself the faith that saves.


Bottom line (Melancthon's dictum) It IS FAITH ALONE that saves, but the FAITH that SAVES - is never alone. "Works" are NOT salvific. FAITH is.


One comment under this post was: "This is like the 8th person who has told you this."

More:

Faith that saves is not alone. Notice it doesn't say anything else before saves like works or a killer chili recipe?. Faith is the saving factor. What's with it (should you have it) is the holy spirit and the grace that are working with it and received in, as well as the good fruit that comes from it.
Done now?
Edit: also...the Good fruit aren't ours they are God's we do them through faith. The grace isn't ours we receive it through faith...it's God's to give. The Holy Spirit isn't our either...it proceeds from the son and works in us, for God. Not for us.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Some more posters who have answered you on this; why don't you remember?

From Bob Carabbio:

The OBVIOUS ANSWER is that "SAVING FAITH" has nothing whatsoever to do with "Works" (since the "Works" of a lost person are filthy and worthless), BUT BECOMING SAVED BY FAITH will inevitably RESULT in "Works" moving forward. The "Works", however HAVE NOTHING TO DO with salvation, and are simply the Result / Fruit of it. (Bob C)

More answers:

We are saved by grace through faith and NOT by works, so no one may boast. We are not saved by grace through faith WITH works, but by grace through faith THAT works. There IS a difference. I think my fellow Lutherans and other friends will understand that that means. (Me)

The true Christ is our salvation so I will go with an actual and true translation of Romans 4:5 rather than the linguistically incompetent cult leader's mistranslation of it.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. -KJV (BJ)

And lastly, from Josiah, about 5 years ago:

Round and round you go....... obviously in spite of knowing you are just clinging to a wrong strawman.

You KNOW that NO ONE ever has claimed, taught, believed or held that faith is not joined with OUR works. So, why the continuing strawman?

The issue we disagree upon is that you seem to insist that what WE do is the cause of our justification (narrow sense) - THAT is what those here are rejecting, you have this silly, absurd, illogical insistence that if things are associated (even inseparable) they THUS have the IDENTICAL FUNCTION, so if faith in Christ means there is justification ERGO our works do, too. It's silly. It's illogical, irrational, and certainly unbiblical. YOU are not the Savior. Nor am I. JESUS is. Which means HIS WORKS justify.

So, why do you keep asking the same old same old question over and over again, as if you expect to get a different answer? Have our answers changed in over 5 years?

why don't you seem to "get" our answer? Could it be because of what Paul wrote here:

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

And

1 Corinthians 2:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)​

14 But [a]a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And Mormons cannot have the Holy Spirit, can they, since they do NOT understand the "foolishness" of the true Gospel, since it must be "spiritually discerned"?

NOW, I testify before Almighty God in Christ Jesus my Lord and God and Savior, that I have many, many times answered this questions, dealt with James 2:24, and Matthew 19, on this board and on the previous boards, from 2012 to the present. I also testify before Almighty God in Christ Jesus our Lord that others of my friends have ALSO dealt with your questions, bible verses, and points and ANSWERED YOU. Here are PROOFS that we have. Why then, do you keep repeating yourself, over and over and over again? Do you hope we will change our minds? Why are you doing your best to demonstrate the Mormon debate tactics nos. 3-5 in my signature?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why Do you keep ignoring what I write? Whycdo you ignore my answers, amd pretend I have never answered you, timecand time again?
I didn't ignore what you wrote--I asked you to explain how you are relating any of that to the testimony of the Savior--connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


How does one collate that testimony to Lutheran theology--which denies keeping the commandments is necessary to obtain eternal life?

What is the only way to obey God's commandments? On our own? OR by having Jesus's perfect keeping of God's commandments credited to us By faith?

If Jesus' perfection is credited to us--then why are all judged according to their works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why is the Blood of Christ conditional upon one walking in the light?

1 John 1:7--King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How does one even begin to collate that to Lutheran theology?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why Do you keep repeating yourself? Why do you pretend I have not answered these questions many times for YEARS--as others on here and the Mormon board can testified to?
Please do explain for us one more time("I already explained that")--how you collate the testimony of the Savior with Lutheran theology:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Bonnie--"I already explained that"--is not a viable answer. You, or someone else--are going to have to explain why the Biblical record connects keeping the commandments and eternal life--and the Lutherans denying keeping the commandments has anything to do with obtaining life.

Please do explain that for us.

If A person is able to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, trusting in Him only for salvation, great and free, is that faith DEAD--before the person has a chance to do any good works, other than BELIEVE? Is this faith that enabled this person to BELIEVE living or dead?
I'll let the scriptures do the testifying:

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Since faith is a gift, does God give dead gifts to His children?

As the testimony of the Savior shows--God judges men in accordance with what His servants do with His gifts--and that for the "joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness":

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


Could you explain how that meshes with Lutheran theology?

 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
From another poster:

This is, of course the gist of the Book of James summed up in his examples - i.e. Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Put simply, James simply says that IF what you "CALL FAITH" produces NOTHING of practical value, then it's DEAD - NOT Biblical FAITH at all.
Please do comport that to your testimony:

If A person is able to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, trusting in Him only for salvation, great and free, is that faith DEAD--before the person has a chance to do any good works, other than BELIEVE? Is this faith that enabled this person to BELIEVE living or dead? Since faith is a gift, does God give dead gifts to His children?

How are you claiming those two testimonies match each other?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
And another poster:
Works come as a result of faith (faith isn't alone it has good fruits with it) explained many times...
no we don't add anything. That faith....that saves....is not alone and we don't add anything to it. Faith comes with or receives the holy spirit, grace and good fruits...(good fruits are the outward sign of this faith) or good works. It's not alone God and his will , Grace and good works before him are part of faith. But it is the saving faith....that brings them.

So no it doesn't mean we are saved in dead faith. Dead faith is the lack of good fruit . Just like a tree. No one is saved with dead faith. Nothing is added to it but what comes with it is received upon having faith. Therefore it is not alone, but it is itself the faith that saves.


Bottom line (Melancthon's dictum) It IS FAITH ALONE that saves, but the FAITH that SAVES - is never alone. "Works" are NOT salvific. FAITH is.

That post is about as a confused, double tongued post as I have ever read.

If "dead faith is the lack of good fruit"--then how can saving faith be faith plus nothing added? The Lutherans have the most confused doctrine of any denomination in Protestantism. They are full of double speak and contradictions.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Some more posters who have answered you on this; why don't you remember?

From Bob Carabbio:

The OBVIOUS ANSWER is that "SAVING FAITH" has nothing whatsoever to do with "Works" (since the "Works" of a lost person are filthy and worthless), BUT BECOMING SAVED BY FAITH will inevitably RESULT in "Works" moving forward. The "Works", however HAVE NOTHING TO DO with salvation, and are simply the Result / Fruit of it. (Bob C)

Another confused post of unBiblical origins:

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--if saving faith hasn't anything to do with works--then why does the Biblical text testify faith without works is dead? Are you claiming dead faith is saving faith?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
And lastly, from Josiah, about 5 years ago:


You KNOW that NO ONE ever has claimed, taught, believed or held that faith is not joined with OUR works. So, why the continuing strawman?

In Lutheran theology--not in salvation. There are no works joined with faith in obtaining salvation, in Lutheran theology.

It's a faith without works, in salvation--in Lutheran theology. IOW--what the Bible terms "dead faith"(faith without works)--the Lutherans claim is the faith one is saved through.

The issue we disagree upon is that you seem to insist that what WE do is the cause of our justification (narrow sense) - THAT is what those here are rejecting, you have this silly, absurd, illogical insistence that if things are associated (even inseparable) they THUS have the IDENTICAL FUNCTION, so if faith in Christ means there is justification ERGO our works do, too. It's silly. It's illogical, irrational, and certainly unbiblical. YOU are not the Savior. Nor am I. JESUS is. Which means HIS WORKS justify.
So--are you claiming Abraham did His works?

21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

So--did God offer Isaac--or Abraham?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Please do explain how you square that to Lutheran theology?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Why do you pretend that I have never answered your questions, time without number? Do you not know that "justified" can mean "vindicated" or "proven"? Meaning, "Do you know that Abraham was VINDICATED by works, when he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?"

Because what does Paul say?

Romans 4 New International Version (NIV)​

Abraham Justified by Faith​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”


4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s FAITH was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness THAT HE HAD BY FAITH while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

What does "believe" mean? And what is the "it" that Paul quoted, that was credited to Abe as righteousness? Do you not see the bolded parts? WHAT was credited to Abe as RIGHTEOUSNESS? His works--or his faith?

Why don't you ever quote THESE verses, dberrie? Has any Mormon on that board ever done so? OR do they, like you, pick and choose which ones to quote, while ignoring all the others?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
As the testimony of the Savior shows--God judges men in accordance with what His servants do with His gifts--and that for the "joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness":

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


Could you explain how that meshes with Lutheran theology?
Do the true servants of God use his gifts IN salvation, or FOR salvation? IN WHOM do they do their good deeds and use their gifts? Do you not know what Paul wrote?

For it is by faith you are saved; THROUGH FAITH--and that NOT of yourselves; it is the GIFT OF GOD--and NOT BY WORKS, so no one may boast. For we are GOD'S WORKMANSHIP, created IN Christ Jesus FOR good works, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk {do} them."

1. So, what does Paul say here actually SAVES US?
2. Do we WORK for this, OR is it a gift?
3. WHOSE workmanship are we?
4. IN WHOM do we do our good works? WHO ENABLES US TO DO THEM?

Do you not know that IF you give me honest and direct answers to these questions, you will know why our works come up in judgment? And IN WHOM they are perfected and acceptable to God (Hint--read Hebrews 11:6). OR will you refuse to give me straight-forward answers to these questions, as you have for YEARS on here?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Could you explain for us what I do--or don't do--has to do with the truthfulness of the Biblical witness?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Is your claim that if I keep the commandments--then the Biblical witness is true, and if I don't--the Biblical witness is false?



We don't live under the Mosaic Law--and I'm not understanding your link to that--- and the testimony of the Savior:

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

How does one collate Lutheran theology to that testimonies of the Savior above?
Care to explain to us why you won't answer a simple question? When I and others have answered you time without number? As I testified to on this page?

Can YOU keep all of the commandments perfectly, 24/7? Don't you know this isn't an essay question? CAN YOU? Yes or no?


posts nos. 45 an 46?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do you pretend that I have never answered your questions, time without number?
Because--- "I have answered your questions, time without number" ---isn't an answer to my questions.

Do you not know that "justified" can mean "vindicated" or "proven"? Meaning, "Do you know that Abraham was VINDICATED by works, when he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?"

Whatever one believes justified means--the scriptures testify Abraham was justified by what he did.

How do you collate that with Lutheran theology?

Because what does Paul say?

Romans 4 New International Version (NIV)

Abraham Justified by Faith​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3

What does Scripture say?

The scriptures say this:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So--was that Abraham's faith?

What does "believe" mean? And what is the "it" that Paul quoted, that was credited to Abe as righteousness? Do you not see the bolded parts? WHAT was credited to Abe as RIGHTEOUSNESS? His works--or his faith?
What is your evidence faith does not have works as an integral component?

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--why don't you answer to the scriptural testimonies above?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do the true servants of God use his gifts IN salvation, or FOR salvation?

The Savior testified His servants were judged according to what they did with the gifts--and that for "the joy of thy lord"--or--"outer darkness":


Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


Care to address that testimony?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do the true servants of God use his gifts IN salvation, or FOR salvation?

I would like to add an additional parable the Savior testified to. This parable shows God separates His sheep and the goats using this criteria:

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

How does that compare to Lutheran theology? Anathema. Snakebite. A poisonous serpent.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Care to explain to us why you won't answer a simple question? When I and others have answered you time without number? As I testified to on this page?

Can YOU keep all of the commandments perfectly, 24/7? Don't you know this isn't an essay question? CAN YOU? Yes or no?
And again--please explain for us how you are relating that question--to the testimony I posted concerning keeping the commandments:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


What relationship are you claiming in what I do--or don't do--and the testimony of the Savior connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Bonnie--it's not about you, nor me--what you or I do--or don't do--it's about what the Savior testified to--compared to Lutheran theology.

How do you comport the Savior's testimony above--with Lutheran theology?
 
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