Lutheran theology

Bonnie

Super Member
And again--please explain for us how you are relating that question--to the testimony I posted concerning keeping the commandments:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


What relationship are you claiming in what I do--or don't do--and the testimony of the Savior connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Bonnie--it's not about you, nor me--what you or I do--or don't do--it's about what the Savior testified to--compared to Lutheran theology.

How do you comport the Savior's testimony above--with Lutheran theology?
Have you forgotten that I have answered and dealt with this, many times on here? Why don't you remember?

Also, Jesus knows we cannot keep the commandments on our own. He was showing the young man that he had not kept the commandments as well as he thought. Choosing his wealth over following Jesus PROVED that he had NOT kept them at all, breaking the first and greatest commandment.

If we were capable of keeping God's commandments on our own, He would not have needed to suffer and die for us. And James says if we keep all of God's law, but stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it. Putting us back at square one.

Mormons are so conditioned and indoctrinated to believe they must make themselves worthy of full salvation by THEIR own efforts, that they cannot conceive of true salvation being the GIFT OF GOD simply because He loves us. It is anathema to them. I feel sorry for them, really...

And

You are trying to be like the Judaizers, who tried to be righteous by obedience to the Law. But what did Paul say about that:

"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did NOT pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness WHICH IS BY FAITH. But Israel, pursuing a LAW of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did NOT pursue it BY FAITH, but,as it were, BY WORKS." (Rom. 9:30-31a).

No one can be justified by obedience to the Law, because NO ONE CAN DO SO, EVER, because we are ALL sinners and everything we to please God would be tainted by sin. James says if we are guilty of breaking ONE commandment--we are guilty of ALL OF THEM.

The rich young man was trying to be justified by obedience to the Law. So are Mormons--both their man-made laws and God's laws. BUT--Jesus told the young man that one thing was STILL lacking--he needed to give all he had to the poor (leaving his old life behind him) and follow Jesus--which would mean putting his faith and trust in Jesus, would it not? But what did the young man do? He refused to follow Jesus or have faith and trust in Him, and followed his old life with its earthly riches, instead.

One thing was STILL lacking in the young man. So, did he REALLY keep God's laws perfectly? 100%? What did Jesus show the young man, by telling him to sell all he had, give it to the poor and follow Him, Jesus? What was the young man's reaction?

And looky here what Paul wrote in Romans 1:4c-5:

"...by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of Holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, THROUGH WHOM we have received GRACE and apostleship to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among the Gentiles for His Name's sake."

What does "obedience of faith" mean, dberrie?

And how was Paul able to do what God required of him? Isn't doing what God requires obeying Him?

"But by the GRACE OF GOD, I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the GRACE OF GOD WITH ME." (1 Cor. 15:10)

Did Paul obey God by his own power? OR was it God's grace--GIVEN to him--that enabled him to labor for God in Christ Jesus?

And:

"...of which {taking the Gospel to the Gentiles} I was made a minister, according to the GIFT of God's grace, which was given to me according to the WORKING OF HIS POWER.. To me, the very least of the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ." (Eph. 3:7-8)

so, did Paul obey God in order to GET God's grace? OR did he obey God BECAUSE he had God's grace--which God GAVE to Paul?
And do YOU obey ALL of God's commandments perfectly, 24/7, 365? Because remember what James wrote:


For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend on one point, he is guilty of all.(KJV James 2:10)
SO--what say you, dberrie? How are YOU doing in the perfect keeping of God's commandments department?

There are only TWO ways to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes, dberrie. The first is by keeping God's commandments perfectly all the time, never stumbling in even one point, for as long as one lives. That is what Jesus was telling the rich young ruler. But He demonstrated to him that he didn't even keep the first and most important commandment--loving God above all else. The young man loved his wealth more--he broke the first commandment and therefore, broke ALL of them.

BUT--there is a SECOND way to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes. Do YOU know that way, dberrie?


Romans 4:4-5 English Standard Version (ESV)

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
By our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and did PERFECTLY are we declared "not guilty" and righteous in God's eyes--for Jesus' righteousness is then credited to us, by our faith in Him and His finished work on the cross.

Which do you think is more sure, dberrie--depending upon your OWN IMperfect keeping of God's commandments--because you seem to think that is what Jesus wants us to do: keep God's commandments perfectly in order to be saved--or depending upon Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments in our stead and for our sake? Which is then credited to us as our own?

Why don't you ever remember what I write? See the last two sentences in this paragraph? That I bolded? Don't you realize that THEY are my answer to you about connecting salvation with keeping the commandments? That it is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH that Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments is then credited to us as our own? Why cannot you understand this, since it is the true Gospel message of Jesus Christ? Maybe because of this:

For the message of the cross is foolishness for those who are perishing, but for those of us who are being saved, it is the power of God.

And

1 Cor. 2:14:

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Could it be that Mormons cannot understand the true Gospel message because they do not have the indwelling HS Who would enable them to understand--and believe--in a spiritual level? Because the "god of this world" has blinded their eyes to the truth? Because they have the "spirit of error"?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Because--- "I have answered your questions, time without number" ---isn't an answer to my questions.



Whatever one believes justified means--the scriptures testify Abraham was justified by what he did.

How do you collate that with Lutheran theology?



The scriptures say this:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So--was that Abraham's faith?


What is your evidence faith does not have works as an integral component?

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--why don't you answer to the scriptural testimonies above?
Why don't you remember that we HAVE answered you about these verses time without number on here? Which I proved from posting archived responses?

Romans 4 New International Version (NIV)​

Abraham Justified by Faith​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.

WHAT is credited to us AS RIGHTEOUSNESS?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Because--- "I have answered your questions, time without number" ---isn't an answer to my questions.



Whatever one believes justified means--the scriptures testify Abraham was justified by what he did.

How do you collate that with Lutheran theology?



The scriptures say this:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So--was that Abraham's faith?


What is your evidence faith does not have works as an integral component?

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So--why don't you answer to the scriptural testimonies above?
You did NOT answer my actual question did you? Do you know what "HAVE ANSWERED" really means?


Posts 45 and 46?
 

Nic

Well-known member
tenor.gif
Thanks James I needed that!😁
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Thanks James I needed that!😁
I see I am not the only one who recognizes that we have dealt with a certain posters questions and bible verses umpteen times on here, which I have proven by archiving some of them, which I will just trot out and repost:


Posts no. 45 and 46. Do you agree that we have? And DO note the Mormon debate tactics in my signature. :)
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Have you forgotten that I have answered and dealt with this, many times on here? Why don't you remember?

"Also, Jesus knows we cannot keep the commandments on our own. He was showing the young man that he had not kept the commandments as well as he thought."

How are you using that to break the connection between keeping the commandments and eternal life--as evidenced by Jesus' testimony?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Bonnie--that's what we need to address--the connection Jesus made between keeping the commandments and eternal life. The scriptures,--not your personal opinions.
And--You are trying to be like the Judaizers, who tried to be righteous by obedience to the Law.

Keeping the commandments were part of the gospel also:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Bonnie--I'm asking the Lutherans to comport their theology to those testimonies--not their personal opinions.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why don't you remember that we HAVE answered you about these verses time without number on here? Which I proved from posting archived responses?

Romans 4 New International Version (NIV)​

Abraham Justified by Faith​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

And don't you remember--I asked if this was Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Bonnie--in Lutheran theology--faith unto salvation--is void and empty of works--which is what the Biblical text labels as a "faith without works is dead":


James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why don't you remember that we HAVE answered you about these verses time without number on here? Which I proved from posting archived responses?

Romans 4 New International Version (NIV)​

Abraham Justified by Faith​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.

WHAT is credited to us AS RIGHTEOUSNESS?
His Atonement.

God's Atoning for the sins of the whole world absolved all men of the condemnation brought to all men due to the Fall--as a free gift to all men--justifying all men of life(the opportunity to inherit eternal life--the doors of life opened to all men):

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


All men are now justified of life. Free gift to all men. Christ's righteousness to all men--plus nothing.

That freed all men from the condemnation of the Fall--and opened the door of eternal life to all men--unconditionally.

Now--all are judged in accordance with their own works--after death--and that for life or damnation--and not Adam's choice:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
His Atonement.

God's Atoning for the sins of the whole world absolved all men of the condemnation brought to all men due to the Fall--as a free gift to all men--justifying all men of life(the opportunity to inherit eternal life--the doors of life opened to all men):

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


All men are now justified of life. Free gift to all men. Christ's righteousness to all men--plus nothing.

That freed all men from the condemnation of the Fall--and opened the door of eternal life to all men--unconditionally.

Now--all are judged in accordance with their own works--after death--and that for life or damnation--and not Adam's choice:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Where does the verse in Romans 4 say "atonement" was credited to Abraham as righteousness? ACTUALLY SAY THAT? Where does it say that "to the one who does NOT work, but trusts Him who justifies the ungodly, his 'atonement' is credited to us as righteousness"? Where does the verse actually SAY THAT? In those exact words?

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

What does "believe" mean? What is "it" referencing? Paul tells us in vs. 5:

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

Now, try again: WHAT do theses verses ACTUALLY SAY is credited to us as righteousness? THE ACTUAL WORD PAUL USED?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Where does the verse in Romans 4 say "atonement" was credited to Abraham as righteousness? ACTUALLY SAY THAT? Where does it say that "to the one who does NOT work, but trusts Him who justifies the ungodly, his 'atonement' is credited to us as righteousness"? Where does the verse actually SAY THAT? In those exact words?

Whoa, Bonnie. The point I answered--I highlighted in your post:

Bonnie said:
WHAT is credited to us AS RIGHTEOUSNESS?

Answer--the Atonement of Jesus Christ. What about that do you disagree with?

What does "believe" mean? What is "it" referencing? Paul tells us in vs. 5:

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

Paul's point is Abraham didn't live under the Law of works(Mosaic Law)--rather, Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ, as Abraham was 400 years before the Mosaic Law, so, his works were apart from the works of the law.

IOW--Paul was pointing out Abraham, the very one whom the Jews ran to in order to claim their elite status--didn't live under the Mosaic Law of works--but under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the Jews--and they were rejecting in lieu of the Mosaic Law.
So--if you believe Paul was claiming obedience to the gospel in deeds was not necessary for eternal life to occur--then why would Paul be making this claim just two chapters BEFORE chapter4?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Care to explain that for us? My explanation is found above.

And while you are at it--please explain to us why this isn't Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Now, try again: WHAT do theses verses ACTUALLY SAY is credited to us as righteousness? THE ACTUAL WORD PAUL USED?
Again--when you find the term "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

Was this Abraham's faith--which was credited to Him for righteousness?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
<<snip>> irrelevant
Why don't you read more carefully? Since your answer is completely incorrect?

Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

What does "believe" mean? What is "it" referencing? Paul tells us in vs. 5:

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

Now, what word did Paul ACTUALLY USE that is credited to us as righteousness? Did he write "their atonement is credited as righteousness"? OR did he use another word? What is that other word, dberrie?

Why did you ignore what I wrote here? Did Paul write that "their atonement is credited as righteousness" OR did he use ANOTHER WORD? What is the actual word that Paul used?? Care to tell us?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why don't you read more carefully? Since your answer is completely incorrect?

That's a taint so!! response--without the first explanation of how you believe it's wrong.

Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Why did you ignore what I wrote here? Did Paul write that "their atonement is credited as righteousness" OR did he use ANOTHER WORD? What is the actual word that Paul used?? Care to tell us?
I believe I asked you a question about that verse, IE--

Was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

IOW--mankind is blessed, due to Abraham's obedience to His voice, charge, commandments, and laws?

Bonnie--to vindicate Lutheran theology--one must separate out all the works, and predate Abraham's faith from his obedience---in obtaining the promise.

The Biblical text includes all of Abraham's works in his faith, as the reason Abraham was given the promise. Anathema to faith alone theology.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
That's a taint so!! response--without the first explanation of how you believe it's wrong.


I believe I asked you a question about that verse, IE--

Was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

IOW--mankind is blessed, due to Abraham's obedience to His voice, charge, commandments, and laws?

Bonnie--to vindicate Lutheran theology--one must separate out all the works, and predate Abraham's faith from his obedience---in obtaining the promise.

The Biblical text includes all of Abraham's works in his faith, as the reason Abraham was given the promise. Anathema to faith alone theology.
Then why do you keep GIVING "TAINT SO" responses?

Reading problems, ,dberrie? Need new glasses?

Romans 4 New International Version (NIV)​

Abraham Justified by Faith​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

See these verses from Romans 4? Now, according to vs. 5, WHAT did Paul ACTUALLY WRITE--the actual word he used--was credited to us as righteousness? What was the exact word he used? In Romans 4:5? See the bolded part? Do you see the word "atonement" in that verse?

What did Paul actually write is credited to us as righteousness? The actual WORD he wrote in vs. 5?

. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Then why do you keep GIVING "TAINT SO" responses?

Reading problems, ,dberrie? Need new glasses?

Romans 4 New International Version (NIV)​

Abraham Justified by Faith​

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Again--was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Bonnie--Paul was a master of the scriptures--if the traditional Jews thought Paul was saying Abraham's works didn't count toward the blessings--then they would have had a field day with him. Paul didn't forget about Genesis26:4-5--and neither should we.

You still have not addressed the point about Romans 4:

Paul's point is Abraham didn't live under the Law of works(Mosaic Law)--rather, Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ, as Abraham was 400 years before the Mosaic Law, so, his works were apart from the works of the law.(hence--Paul's reference to "works"as works of the Mosaic Law--and Abraham)

IOW--Paul was pointing out Abraham, the very one whom the Jews ran to in order to claim their elite status--didn't live under the Mosaic Law of works--but under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the Jews--and they were rejecting in lieu of the Mosaic Law.

So--if you believe Paul was claiming obedience to the gospel in deeds was not necessary for eternal life to occur--then why would Paul be making this claim just two chapters BEFORE chapter4?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Care to explain that for us? My explanation is found above.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
snip
<<irrelevant to my question about Romans 4>>
Are we discussing Genesis or Romans 2? What verses am I asking about? Why are you so very reluctant to give me a straightforward answer about Romans 4:4-5?

Now, in the following verses, WHAT DOES PAUL ACTUALLY SAY IS CREDITED TO US AS RIGHTEOUSNESS?

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does NOT work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

In these verses, WHAT does Paul actually write is credited to us as righteousness? In vs. 5? Do you see that I even bolded it for you? What is the EXACT WORD that Paul used? The exact word?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Are we discussing Genesis or Romans 2? What verses am I asking about? Why are you so very reluctant to give me a straightforward answer about Romans 4:4-5?

Now, in the following verses, WHAT DOES PAUL ACTUALLY SAY IS CREDITED TO US AS RIGHTEOUSNESS?

In these verses, WHAT does Paul actually write is credited to us as righteousness? In vs. 5? Do you see that I even bolded it for you? What is the EXACT WORD that Paul used? The exact word?
Faith.

Bonnie--that only connects works as an integral component of faith.

So--was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So, Bonnie---God testified the earth would be blessed BECAUSE of what?

Specifically--what was listed as the reasons? The exact words?
 

organgrinder

Super Member
Where does the verse in Romans 4 say "atonement" was credited to Abraham as righteousness? ACTUALLY SAY THAT? Where does it say that "to the one who does NOT work, but trusts Him who justifies the ungodly, his 'atonement' is credited to us as righteousness"? Where does the verse actually SAY THAT? In those exact words?



What does "believe" mean? What is "it" referencing? Paul tells us in vs. 5:



Now, try again: WHAT do theses verses ACTUALLY SAY is credited to us as righteousness? THE ACTUAL WORD PAUL USED?
The entire chapter 4 of Romans is explicit. All about faith. Not the Mormon view of atonement. Hebrews 11 also speaks of faith and how people were viewed as righteous in God's sight. Somebody is trying to re-invent the wheel.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The entire chapter 4 of Romans is explicit. All about faith. Not the Mormon view of atonement. Hebrews 11 also speaks of faith and how people were viewed as righteous in God's sight. Somebody is trying to re-invent the wheel.
And trying to spell "faith" as "a-t-o-n-e-m-e-n-t." :rolleyes: Thanks OG!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Why do you refuse to answer my simple question? I am not talking about Genesis 26 but Romans 4. Why do you refuse to answer such a simple question?

Here is the Romans 4:5 Bible verse AGAIN: "5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness."

According to THIS verse, WHAT did Paul say is credited as righteousness to the one who does NOT work, but trusts in God who justifies the ungodly? What ACTUAL WORD did Paul write? Did he write "atonement" here--or another word? Can you read the capitalized word? Why are you so afraid to tell me that that ACTUAL WORD is? Do you think it will go away if you tap dance around it a lot and attempt to divert away from it? Do you think I will forget about it?

"5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness."
What word did Paul actually write here, that is credited to us as righteousness? THE EXACT WORD?
 

organgrinder

Super Member
Why do you refuse to answer my simple question? I am not talking about Genesis 26 but Romans 4. Why do you refuse to answer such a simple question?

Here is the Romans 4:5 Bible verse AGAIN: "5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness."

According to THIS verse, WHAT did Paul say is credited as righteousness to the one who does NOT work, but trusts in God who justifies the ungodly? What ACTUAL WORD did Paul write? Did he write "atonement" here--or another word? Can you read the capitalized word? Why are you so afraid to tell me that that ACTUAL WORD is? Do you think it will go away if you tap dance around it a lot and attempt to divert away from it? Do you think I will forget about it?

"5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness."
What word did Paul actually write here, that is credited to us as righteousness? THE EXACT WORD?
Apparently afraid to answer, because there is only one answer and it is not atonement.
 
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