Lutheran theology

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The entire chapter 4 of Romans is explicit. All about faith.

And specifically--Abraham's faith.

So--was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So---God testified the earth would be blessed BECAUSE of what?

Specifically--what was listed as the reasons? The exact words?
Hebrews 11 also speaks of faith and how people were viewed as righteous in God's sight. Somebody is trying to re-invent the wheel.

Was the author of Hebrews attempting to reinvent the wheel?

Hebrews 11:8---King James Version
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

That connects faith and works.

So--when Bonnie attempts to tell us obedience is merely "believing"--please relate to here obedience included Abraham's works.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

1 John 2:25---King James Version

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do you refuse to answer my simple question? I am not talking about Genesis 26 but Romans 4. Why do you refuse to answer such a simple question?

Here is the Romans 4:5 Bible verse AGAIN: "5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness."

According to THIS verse, WHAT did Paul say is credited as righteousness to the one who does NOT work, but trusts in God who justifies the ungodly?

As a number of scholars now agree--the "does not work"--the "work" being a reference to the Mosaic Law--not walking according to faith:

Romans 4:12---King James Version
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.


Paul's point was--Abraham didn't do the work of the Mosaic Law--because he was 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law--Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the same gospel Paul was bringing to the traditional Jews--and they were rejecting in lieu of the Mosaic Law--all the while running to "father Abraham" to claim their elite status with God.

Again--was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Bonnie--could you collate your interpretation of Romans 4--with the testimony of Paul just two chapters previous:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Paul connecting works to eternal life--and you believing Paul was excluding the connection between works(acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--not obedience to the Law)---and righteousness?

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If your interpretation is true--then that makes Paul appear as an amateur deceiver, IMO--as Paul connects works(keeping the commandments) with the kingdom of God--and righteousness.

Paul differentiated between the works of the Law--and obedience to the gospel:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

How does one comport that to Lutheran theology--or your interpretation of Romans4?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Apparently afraid to answer, because there is only one answer and it is not atonement.

When addressing the ungodly--the Atonement justified all men--as a free gift:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Since the Lutherans believe in the Atonement for all men--why wouldn't that include the ungodly?

1 John 2:2---King James Version
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
The Mormon is one again diverting from answering a direct question. He substituted the word "atonement" in Romans 4:5 for faith. He must do that to sustain his unbiblical argument. It also demonstrates his inability to actually read the sentence. Since he can't answer to what is actually written, he must divert. Mormon apologetics 101.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The Mormon is one again diverting from answering a direct question. He substituted the word "atonement" in Romans 4:5 for faith.
Cite, please.

I comported the Atonement with the "justifieth the ungodly:

When addressing the ungodly--the Atonement justified all men--as a free gift:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Since the Lutherans believe in the Atonement for all men--why wouldn't that include the ungodly?

1 John 2:2---King James Version
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Care to engage that point?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Cite, please.

I comported the Atonement with the "justifieth the ungodly:



Care to engage that point?
Care to answer my question?

Don't you know that you just verified what OG wrote--diverting away from what I actually asked you and substituted another word that is NOT IN THE PASSAGE I QUOTED?

Now what did Paul ACTUALLY WRITE in Romans 8:4? When he wrote "Now to the one who does NOT work, but BELIEVES in Him Who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."

Now, where do you see the actual word "atonement" in this verse? Where did Paul actually WRITE the word "atonement" here? Can you show me? If not, then what is the ACTUAL WORD THAT PAUL USED? Why are you so reluctant to tell us?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
O
The Mormon is one again diverting from answering a direct question. He substituted the word "atonement" in Romans 4:5 for faith. He must do that to sustain his unbiblical argument. It also demonstrates his inability to actually read the sentence. Since he can't answer to what is actually written, he must divert. Mormon apologetics 101.
Of course. We see here these apologetic styles as Markk once described on here, that I quoted on the other board. I am not trying to go off topic, but will quote just this much:

They avoid discussions here about their theology not because they don't want to have conversation, but BECAUSE THEY CAN'T ...once the surface is scratched...they are lost.,,because their theology is nothing more than repeated talking points.

That is all we see here--repeated talking points, every one of which we have answered, over and over again. We Lutherans have dealt with James 2:24/faith alone ad nauseum, Matthew 19 ad nauseum, all of those "obey" verses, etc. over the last 3 boards. Here is one such place:

https://forums.carm.org/threads/lutheran-theology.131/

post no. 7.

And another:


Posts 45 and 46.

I testify before Almighty God through Jesus Christ my Lord that I and other Lutherans (and one or two non-Lutherans on here) have dealt with all of this poster's verses and points--not once but over and over and over again. I archived some examples, which I have put down on here, which you can see in the links above. And yet, our answers are treated with contempt and ignored as if they didn't even exist....thus demonstrating most of the debate tactics listed in my signature.

Sad isn't it?
 
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organgrinder

Well-known member
Care to answer my question?

Don't you know that you just verified what OG wrote--diverting away from what I actually asked you and substituted another word that is NOT IN THE PASSAGE I QUOTED?

Now what did Paul ACTUALLY WRITE in Romans 8:4? When he wrote "Now to the one who does NOT work, but BELIEVES in Him Who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."

Now, where do you see the actual word "atonement" in this verse? Where did Paul actually WRITE the word "atonement" here? Can you show me? If not, then what is the ACTUAL WORD THAT PAUL USED? Why are you so reluctant to tell us?
As we see, he can't answer a direct question. He doesn't know how to do so. This is just the game playing he is accustomed to doing, which is why I won't respond to the guy. He answers a question with a question to divert. He is not honest in his his attempt to do apologetics. He is nothing more than an internet troll.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Care to answer my question?

Don't you know that you just verified what OG wrote--diverting away from what I actually asked you and substituted another word that is NOT IN THE PASSAGE I QUOTED?

Now what did Paul ACTUALLY WRITE in Romans 8:4? When he wrote "Now to the one who does NOT work, but BELIEVES in Him Who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."

Now, where do you see the actual word "atonement" in this verse? Where did Paul actually WRITE the word "atonement" here? Can you show me? If not, then what is the ACTUAL WORD THAT PAUL USED? Why are you so reluctant to tell us?

That God justified the ungodly in His Atonement, as a free gift to all men-- is testified to by the Biblical NT--regardless of where one believes that word is found:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Since the Lutherans believe in the Atonement for all men--why wouldn't that include the ungodly?

"Now to the one who does NOT work, but BELIEVES in Him Who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."
 

Bonnie

Super Member
That God justified the ungodly in His Atonement, as a free gift to all men-- is testified to by the Biblical NT--regardless of where one believes that word is found:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Since the Lutherans believe in the Atonement for all men--why wouldn't that include the ungodly?

"Now to the one who does NOT work, but BELIEVES in Him Who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."
Instituting a Bob Millet "ask the question that should have been asked", instead of answering the question that WAS ACTUALLY ASKED? Which is: WHAT did Paul ACTUALLY SAY is credited to us as righteousness in this verse:

"Now to the one who does NOT work, but BELIEVES in Him Who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."

WHAT word did Paul use, dberrie? WHAT did he say is credited to us as righteousness? What word did he ACTUALLY USE?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
<<snip irrelevant>>

"Now to the one who does NOT work, but BELIEVES in Him Who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."

WHAT
did Paul write is credited as RIGHTEOUSNESS to those who believe in Him Who justifies the ungodly? What word did he actually use? Why do you refuse to answer such a simple question?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Instituting a Bob Millet "ask the question that should have been asked", instead of answering the question that WAS ACTUALLY ASKED?

I'm not sure how you are relating your question to my point. It's just a diversion, IMO. Please explain that to us.

But I started a separate thread where we can discuss whether the scriptures testify God justified all men of life, as a free gift--including the ungodly:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Since the Lutherans believe in the Atonement for all men--why wouldn't that include the ungodly?

"Now to the one who does NOT work, but BELIEVES in Him Who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."

IOW--those who are not under the Mosaic Law (specifically, Abraham here)---are still covered by the Atonement--as that covered all men--as a free gift--including the ungodly. That faith(not the specific works of the Law) is counted as righteousness.(Abraham's faith)

Here is that faith, namely--obedience:

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I'm not sure how you are relating your question to my point. It's just a diversion, IMO. Please explain that to us.

<<snip>> irrelevant to my question
Why should I explain anything when it is obvious you are desperately trying to get out of giving me a correct, direct answer to my simple question about Romans 8:4? I am not asking about what "justify the ungodly" means, am I? Can't you see that I am asking what Paul ACTUALLY WROTE justifies us?:

"Now to the one who does NOT work, but believes on Him who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."

Now, WHAT EXACTLY did Paul say is credited to us as righteousness? IN this verse? Do you see the bolded word? What does it say, dbrerrie?
 
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organgrinder

Well-known member
Why should I explain anything when it is obvious you are desperately trying to get out of giving me a correct, direct answer to my simple question about Romans 8:4? I am not asking about what "justify the ungodly" means, am I? Can't you see that I am asking about the what Paul ACTUALLY WROTE justifies us?:

"Now to the one who does NOT work, but believes on Him who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."

Now, WHAT EXACTLY did Paul say is credited to us as righteousness? IN this verse? Do you see the bolded word? What does it say, dbrerrie?
He won't respond Bonnie, other than with a diversion. EDITED AT POSTER'S REQUEST
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why should I explain anything when it is obvious you are desperately trying to get out of giving me a correct, direct answer to my simple question about Romans 8:4? I am not asking about what "justify the ungodly" means, am I? Can't you see that I am asking what Paul ACTUALLY WROTE justifies us?:

"Now to the one who does NOT work, but believes on Him who justified the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness."

Now, WHAT EXACTLY did Paul say is credited to us as righteousness? IN this verse? Do you see the bolded word? What does it say, dbrerrie?
I believe I have already posted this:

And specifically--Abraham's faith.

So--was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So---God testified the earth would be blessed BECAUSE of what?

Specifically--what was listed as the reasons? The exact words?

Care to engage that?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do the Lutherans link keeping the commandments with entering into life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
I would like to return to the OP--Do the Lutherans link keeping the commandments with entering into life?

It's a yes or no answer.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I believe I have already posted this:



Care to engage that?
But you did not answer my simple question, about Romans 4, did you? WHAT did Paul ACTUALLY SAY was credited to us as righteousness? IN Romans 4:5?--"5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."

Now, what did Paul ACTUALLY WRITE HERE IN VS. 5 is credited to us as righteousness? Care to give me the correct answer? Why are you so afraid to?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I would like to return to the OP--Do the Lutherans link keeping the commandments with entering into life?

It's a yes or no answer.
Can anyone keep the commandments perfectly in this life, on their own? Remember what James wrote--that if we keep the whole law but stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it?

There is ONLY one way to keep God's commandments perfectly in this life--do you know what that way is, dberrie? Would you like me to tell you?
 
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