Lutheran theology

dberrie2020

Well-known member
But you did not answer my simple question, about Romans 4, did you? WHAT did Paul ACTUALLY SAY was credited to us as righteousness? IN Romans 4:5?--"5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."

Now, what did Paul ACTUALLY WRITE HERE IN VS. 5 is credited to us as righteousness? Care to give me the correct answer? Why are you so afraid to?

You have the answer posted above--and I have not argued that point. It states "faith".

My question was--which you have not touched--was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Since God connected Abraham's obedience to His commandments with His grace of all nations being blessed--how are you separating out faith and Abraham's obedience?

Bonnie--I believe keeping the commandments is integral to faith in Christ--so what is your point?

And until you can show keeping the commandments isn't integral to faith--then your point is moot.

Your claim reminds me of this exchange:

John: Ted, my house is for sale.
Ted: Yeah--how much?
John: 100K, but it needs a new roof.
Ted: Hey, wait a minute--you said house--you didn't say anything about a roof!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Can anyone keep the commandments perfectly....

Where is the requirement to obey the commandments perfectly--without fault? Could it be the gospel of grace if we couldn't make a mistake?

How does that preclude one is given the right to repent in the gospel of grace? Be forgiven? Denied the opportunity to change?

in this life, on their own?

Where do we find we go it alone?

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And how does your question break the connection between the Savior's testimony of keeping the commandments and eternal life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Could you please explain that for us?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Remember what James wrote--that if we keep the whole law but stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it?

James 2:10---King James Version
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Under the Mosaic Law--that may be true. Under the gospel of grace--one is given the right to repent and be forgiven.

So--how does that preclude the testimony connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?

There is ONLY one way to keep God's commandments perfectly in this life--do you know what that way is, dberrie? Would you like me to tell you?

I don't see any command to keep the commandments perfectly in this life, without mistake--nor do I believe perfection comes in this life. The principles of obedience involves repentance and change. And when one does that--then His grace is always with us--all along the road to perfection. It's a journey--not a short sprint.

So--how do you feel that exonerates one from the requirement of keeping the commandments?

Did Abraham keep the commandments perfectly?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


1 John 3:7---King James Version

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You have the answer posted above--and I have not argued that point. It states "faith".

My question was--which you have not touched--was this Abraham's faith?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Since God connected Abraham's obedience to His commandments with His grace of all nations being blessed--how are you separating out faith and Abraham's obedience?

Bonnie--I believe keeping the commandments is integral to faith in Christ--so what is your point?

And until you can show keeping the commandments isn't integral to faith--then your point is moot.

Your claim reminds me of this exchange:

John: Ted, my house is for sale.
Ted: Yeah--how much?
John: 100K, but it needs a new roof.
Ted: Hey, wait a minute--you said house--you didn't say anything about a roof!
Then faith means faith, doesn't it? "trust, believe in, have confidence in."

When we trust and believe in Him who justifies the ungodly, our FAITH is credited to us as righteousness, making us holy in God's eyes--doesn't it? Which means that Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments is credited to US, since Jesus did NOT say "If you love me, TRY to keep my commandments" but "Keep my commandments"--didn't He? So the ONLY way we can keep God's commandments is vicariously, by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, so that HIS perfect keeping of the commandments is credited to us by faith, which is what Paul means here--isn't it?

Romans 8--

3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

And we walk in the Holy Spirit by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, don't we? In Him we have righteousness before God, don't we, because we have NONE of our own to boast about--do we?

We are not talking about roofs or houses--are we?

Which came first--Abe's faith in God and His promises, or his obedience to God?

Heb. 11-- By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

HOW was Abe able to obey God? BY WHAT did he do so?

What did Jesus say actually SAVED the woman in Luke 7:50? "Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace."? Did He say her obedience to God's commandments saved her? How could that be, since she was a sinful woman and Jesus did say her "sins were many"? So she didn't keep God's commandments at all--did she? So, what did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY saved her? The actual word He used?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Then faith means faith, doesn't it? "trust, believe in, have confidence in."

Bonnie--that won't address the question of whether keeping the commandments are integral to faith and belief.

Again--was this Abraham's faith and belief?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

When we trust and believe in Him who justifies the ungodly, our FAITH is credited to us as righteousness,

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


So--is he that "doeth righteousness"--he that is faithful?
Which came first--Abe's faith in God and His promises, or his obedience to God?

HOW was Abe able to obey God? BY WHAT did he do so?

How does posting what you believe is an ordering arrangement--or by what Abraham was able to obey God--address why faith and works are connected together? Why the scriptures connect keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Bonnie--that is the issue Lutherans are going to have to face--if they wish to collate their theology with the Biblical witness:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Bonnie--that won't address the question of whether keeping the commandments are integral to faith and belief.

Again--was this Abraham's faith and belief?

Genesis 26:4-5--King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



1 John 3:7---King James Version

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


So--is he that "doeth righteousness"--he that is faithful?


How does posting what you believe is an ordering arrangement--or by what Abraham was able to obey God--address why faith and works are connected together? Why the scriptures connect keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Bonnie--that is the issue Lutherans are going to have to face--if they wish to collate their theology with the Biblical witness:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Did Jesus say "TRY to keep my commandments" or "KEEP my commandments?" What is the ONLY way to keep God's commandments, this side of heaven? Have you forgotten what I wrote about keeping the commandments here, right on this very thread?

https://forums.carm.org/threads/lutheran-theology.131/page-4#post-28786

Post no. 61.

In Luke 7:50, what did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY SAVED THE WOMAN? "Your faith has SAVED you; go in peace."

"Now to the one who does NOT work, but believes on Him Who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness." Did Paul say that "his attempt to keep the commandments is credited to him as righteousness"? OR did he write "his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness"?

Which is the correct answer, dberrie?

By what was Abe able to keep God's commandments?

Heb. 11-- By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Did Jesus say "TRY to keep my commandments" or "KEEP my commandments?"

Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How do you fit that into Lutheran theology?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How do you fit that into Lutheran theology?
Why did you not answer my question, dberrie? Did Jesus say"if you love Me, TRY to keep my commandments" or "KEEP my commandments"?

Did Jesus connect keeping the commandments with eternal life here?: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him, will not perish, but has eternal life"?

How do you collate this with what Jesus told the rich young ruler in Matthew 19? And how do you collate it with what Jesus told the woman in Luke 7:50? "Your FAITH HAS SAVED you, go in peace"? What did He ACTUALLY SAY SAVED her?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why did you not answer my question, dberrie? Did Jesus say"if you love Me, TRY to keep my commandments" or "KEEP my commandments"?
Bonnie--I believe I have already posted the scripture a number of times:

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So--why do the Lutherans preach keeping the commandments is excluded in obtaining eternal life--when Jesus Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Did Jesus connect keeping the commandments with eternal life here?: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him, will not perish, but has eternal life"?

Yes. What is your evidence those who keep His commandments are not those who believe in Him?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in

How do you connect that with Lutheran theology?

How do you collate this with what Jesus told the rich young ruler in Matthew 19?
In the fact keeping the commandments are integral to faith in Christ--the same way a roof is an integral component to a house, or an engine is an integral component of a car, etc.

All obedience to God is integral to faith in Christ--including keeping the commandments.

How do you comport the Savior's testimony of connecting keeping the commandments and eternal life--with Lutheran theology?

And how do you collate it with what Jesus told the woman in Luke 7:50? "Your FAITH HAS SAVED you, go in peace"?
The same way I have maintained all along--all obedience to Jesus Christ is integral to faith in Christ.

How are you using that to exclude the Biblical testimony of connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life? (faith in Christ) With repentance and water baptism in being saved(faith in Christ)---or any of the other actions which are connected to God's grace in the Biblical NT?(faith in Christ)

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

1) Servants to God
2) Fruit
3) Eternal life

How do you fit those scriptures into Lutheran theology?

The Lutherans reverse that order:

1) Eternal life
2) Servants
3) Fruit
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Bonnie--I believe I have already posted the scripture a number of times:

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So--why do the Lutherans preach keeping the commandments is excluded in obtaining eternal life--when Jesus Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?



Yes. What is your evidence those who keep His commandments are not those who believe in Him?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in

How do you connect that with Lutheran theology?


In the fact keeping the commandments are integral to faith in Christ--the same way a roof is an integral component to a house, or an engine is an integral component of a car, etc.

All obedience to God is integral to faith in Christ--including keeping the commandments.

How do you comport the Savior's testimony of connecting keeping the commandments and eternal life--with Lutheran theology?


The same way I have maintained all along--all obedience to Jesus Christ is integral to faith in Christ.

How are you using that to exclude the Biblical testimony of connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life? (faith in Christ) With repentance and water baptism in being saved(faith in Christ)---or any of the other actions which are connected to God's grace in the Biblical NT?(faith in Christ)

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

1) Servants to God
2) Fruit
3) Eternal life

How do you fit those scriptures into Lutheran theology?

The Lutherans reverse that order:

1) Eternal life
2) Servants
3) Fruit
But how do you reconcile the need to keep the commandments in order to be saved with the following?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His One and Only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but has eternal life."

Do you see "believes in and obeys the commandments" here? Where did Jesus say "obey the commandments"?

What does "believe in" mean?

And

"Jesus said unto her, 'Your FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace.'"

Did the woman obey the commandments, since Jesus said that her sins were many? What did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY saved the woman?

And I already answered you about obeying the commandments and what Jesus meant right here--didn't I?


There are only TWO ways to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes, dberrie. The first is by keeping God's commandments perfectly all the time, never stumbling in even one point, for as long as one lives. That is what Jesus was telling the rich young ruler. But He demonstrated to him that he didn't even keep the first and most important commandment--loving God above all else. The young man loved his wealth more--he broke the first commandment and therefore, broke ALL of them.

BUT--there is a SECOND way to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes. Do YOU know that way, dberrie?


Romans 4:4-5 English Standard Version (ESV)

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."

By our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and did PERFECTLY are we declared "not guilty" and righteous in God's eyes--for Jesus' righteousness is then credited to us, by our faith in Him and His finished work on the cross.

Which do you think is more sure, dberrie--depending upon your OWN IMperfect keeping of God's commandments--because you seem to think that is what Jesus wants us to do: keep God's commandments perfectly in order to be saved--or depending upon Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments in our stead and for our sake? Which is then credited to us as our own?

And I have addressed this "obey him" many times on here, haven't I, dberrie--which you always ignored, didn't you?


Now, when are you going to answer me about John 3:16 and Luke 7:50?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
But how do you reconcile the need to keep the commandments in order to be saved with the following?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His One and Only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but has eternal life."

Do you see "believes in and obeys the commandments" here? Where did Jesus say "obey the commandments"?

Yes, Bonnie--I see keeping the commandments when I see terms such as "belief" or "faith". I don't equate saving faith with a faith without works(dead faith).

As I have already relayed to you--I believe keeping the commandments--- as integral components to belief in Christ, just as I believe an engine or transmission as integral to the term "car". When I see the term "car"--I see an engine and a transmission. When I see the term "faith" or "belief"--I see keeping the commandments.

That's the way the English language works, Bonnie. We use terms which have a system of components which make it up. What components do you believe makes up the term "faith"?

If you want to see it more plainly manifested--the scriptures also breaks it out as an individual component--just like one can remove a transmission from a car, as an individual component:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Could you explain to us how you comport that to Lutheran theology?

Bonnie--you might get away with your theology when dealing with terms such as "faith" or "belief"--because you can hide all the components that make it up--but not when the Biblical text breaks out the individual components--Lutheran theology takes a hit there.

How do you explain that?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yes, Bonnie--I see keeping the commandments when I see terms such as "belief" or "faith". I don't equate saving faith with a faith without works(dead faith).

As I have already relayed to you--I believe keeping the commandments--- as integral components to belief in Christ, just as I believe an engine or transmission as integral to the term "car". When I see the term "car"--I see an engine and a transmission. When I see the term "faith" or "belief"--I see keeping the commandments.

That's the way the English language works, Bonnie. We use terms which have a system of components which make it up. What components do you believe makes up the term "faith"?

If you want to see it more plainly manifested--the scriptures also breaks it out as an individual component--just like one can remove a transmission from a car, as an individual component:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Could you explain to us how you comport that to Lutheran theology?

Bonnie--you might get away with your theology when dealing with terms such as "faith" or "belief"--because you can hide all the components that make it up--but not when the Biblical text breaks out the individual components--Lutheran theology takes a hit there.

How do you explain that?
Let's see... I already answered you about this--didn't I? Pretending that I didn't won't change that and just demonstrates Mormon debate tactics 3-5 in my signature, doesn't it?



What YOU see in these verses is NOT what the verses ACTUALLY SAY--is it? Did Jesus say "believes in Me AND keeps my commandments will not perish..."? OR did He just say "believes in Me will not perish..."etc.?

Did Jesus tell the woman "Your faith and keeping my commandments saved you" OR did He just say "Your faith has saved you"?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Let's see... I already answered you about this--didn't I? Pretending that I didn't won't change that and just demonstrates Mormon debate tactics 3-5 in my signature, doesn't it?

I don't have to pretend. Your usual answer is found right in your quote box above.

What YOU see in these verses is NOT what the verses ACTUALLY SAY--is it? Did Jesus say "believes in Me AND keeps my commandments will not perish..."?
He certainly did:

John 14:21---King James Version
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 3:24---King James Version
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

OR did He just say "believes in Me will not perish..."etc.?
No, Bonnie--Jesus didn't say just believe in me--He had conditions for His grace unto life--as a personal reception:

Matthew 7:19-21--King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So--what does one know by their fruits?

Answer---if they are them which believe in Christ.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I don't have to pretend. Your usual answer is found right in your quote box above.


He certainly did:

John 14:21---King James Version
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 3:24---King James Version
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


No, Bonnie--Jesus didn't say just believe in me--He had conditions for His grace unto life--as a personal reception:

Matthew 7:19-21--King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So--what does one know by their fruits?

Answer---if they are them which believe in Christ.

But HOW do we bring forth good fruits? IN salvation or outside of salvation? Didn't Jesus say that HE is the vine and we are the branches and that apart from Him, we can do nothing? So, we bear good fruit IN salvation, as the RESULT of salvation....don't we? But it isn't that "fruit" that saves us, is it? Remember what Bob Carrabio wrote you on the old boards about this?

The OBVIOUS ANSWER is that "SAVING FAITH" has nothing whatsoever to do with "Works" (since the "Works" of a lost person are filthy and worthless), BUT BECOMING SAVED BY FAITH will inevitably RESULT in "Works" moving forward. The "Works", however HAVE NOTHING TO DO with salvation, and are simply the Result / Fruit of it. (Bob C)

And then I answered you here:

We are saved by grace through faith and NOT by works, so no one may boast. We are not saved by grace through faith WITH works, but by grace through faith THAT works. There IS a difference. I think my fellow Lutherans and other friends will understand what that means. (Me)

The BJ:

The true Christ is our salvation so I will go with an actual and true translation of Romans 4:5 rather than the linguistically incompetent cult leader's mistranslation of it.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. -KJV (BJ)

Haven't we told you time and again that good works of love are the RESULT of salvation, not the cause? Why then, do you keep repeating yourself?

Now, when are you going to answer my simple question about John 3:16 and Luke 7:50?

When are you going to answer my questions? What did Jesus say gives us eternal life, in John 3;16?
"For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but have eternal life."

Did Jesus say "whosoever believes in Him and obeys the commandments will not perish...."? What did He actually say, dberrie?

"Your faith has saved you; go in peace." (Luke 7;50) What did Jesus say ACTUALLY SAVED HER? What was the exact word He used? Care to tell us? Did He say "your faith AND works have saved you".....what did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY SAVED HER?

Unless you give me straightforward answers to these questions--which does not mean telling me what YOU think you see in those verses, but what actually is in them, then you will simply have to find someone else to "play" with--won't you?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
So, we bear good fruit IN salvation, as the RESULT of salvation...

I'm not denying one bears fruit in salvation, but since when does one who is cast into the fire--obtain salvation?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Where does it state there--the fruit is the result of salvation?

Bonnie--that's just a man-made theology you claim, on that point.
 

Tertiumquid

Member
Can anyone keep the commandments perfectly in this life, on their own? Remember what James wrote--that if we keep the whole law but stumble in one point, we are guilty of ALL of it?

There is ONLY one way to keep God's commandments perfectly in this life--do you know what that way is, dberrie? Would you like me to tell you?
It struck me today that Paul says, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."

Ashamed? Meditate on that word for a second or two!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
But HOW do we bring forth good fruits? IN salvation or outside of salvation? Didn't Jesus say that HE is the vine and we are the branches and that apart from Him, we can do nothing? So, we bear good fruit IN salvation, as the RESULT of salvation....don't we? But it isn't that "fruit" that saves us, is it? Remember what Bob Carrabio wrote you on the old boards about this?



And then I answered you here:



The BJ:



Haven't we told you time and again that good works of love are the RESULT of salvation, not the cause? Why then, do you keep repeating yourself?

Now, when are you going to answer my simple question about John 3:16 and Luke 7:50?

When are you going to answer my questions? What did Jesus say gives us eternal life, in John 3;16?
"For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but have eternal life."

Did Jesus say "whosoever believes in Him and obeys the commandments will not perish...."? What did He actually say, dberrie?

"Your faith has saved you; go in peace." (Luke 7;50) What did Jesus say ACTUALLY SAVED HER? What was the exact word He used? Care to tell us? Did He say "your faith AND works have saved you".....what did Jesus ACTUALLY SAY SAVED HER?

Unless you give me straightforward answers to these questions--which does not mean telling me what YOU think you see in those verses, but what actually is in them, then you will simply have to find someone else to "play" with--won't you?
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).

What does it mean to "abide in Jesus"?

"For we are God's workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

What does it mean to be created IN Christ Jesus FOR good works? And WHO enables us to DO Them, in the first place?

Now, kindly answer the following questions and stop stalling:

In John 3:16 did Jesus say anything besides BELIEVING in Him gives us eternal life? "For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but have everlasting life."

What did Jesus actually SAY gives us eternal life?

And what did Jesus say actually SAVED the woman, in Luke 7:50?

"Your FAITH has saved you; go on peace."

What did Jesus actually say, dberrie? NOT what you think you "see" in this verse, but what Jesus actually told the woman? The exact word He used?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5).

What does it mean to "abide in Jesus"?
This is what I thought about:

2 John 9--King James Version
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John 15:10---King James Version
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

"For we are God's workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

Doesn't Lutherans teach a disconnect between works and obtaining salvation? Faith alone theology? If we are created for good works--then why are all works excluded in obtaining salvation? Can one fulfill the measure of our creation without what they were created for--and expect eternal life?

What does it mean to be created IN Christ Jesus FOR good works? And WHO enables us to DO Them, in the first place?

That good works are inseparably connected to our creation.

In John 3:16 did Jesus say anything besides BELIEVING in Him gives us eternal life? "
No.

Does Christ connect anything but keeping the commandments to the love of God here?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So--why does one have to choose between those options of John3:16 and John14:15?

Why can't keeping the commandments be an integral component to belief in Christ?

Kindly answer that, please.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
This is what I thought about:

2 John 9--King James Version
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John 15:10---King James Version
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.



Doesn't Lutherans teach a disconnect between works and obtaining salvation? Faith alone theology? If we are created for good works--then why are all works excluded in obtaining salvation? Can one fulfill the measure of our creation without what they were created for--and expect eternal life?



That good works are inseparably connected to our creation.


No.

Does Christ connect anything but keeping the commandments to the love of God here?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So--why does one have to choose between those options of John3:16 and John14:15?

Why can't keeping the commandments be an integral component to belief in Christ?

Kindly answer that, please.
Why should i answer YOU when you refuse to answer ME, most of the time?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but have eternal life."

What did Jesus say actually gives us eternal life? ACTUALLY SAY?

"your FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace."

What did Jesus say ACTUALLY SAVED THE WOMAN? What is the word He used, dberrie?

Why you refuse to answer these simple questions, and refuse to accept the fact that I have answered your other questions about keeping the commandments right here, in post no. 110?...and here it is again:
There are only TWO ways to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes, dberrie. The first is by keeping God's commandments perfectly all the time, never stumbling in even one point, for as long as one lives. That is what Jesus was telling the rich young ruler. But He demonstrated to him that he didn't even keep the first and most important commandment--loving God above all else. The young man loved his wealth more--he broke the first commandment and therefore, broke ALL of them.

BUT--there is a SECOND way to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes. Do YOU know that way, dberrie?


Romans 4:4-5 English Standard Version (ESV)

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."

By our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and did PERFECTLY are we declared "not guilty" and righteous in God's eyes--for Jesus' righteousness is then credited to us, by our faith in Him and His finished work on the cross.

Which do you think is more sure, dberrie--depending upon your OWN IMperfect keeping of God's commandments--because you seem to think that is what Jesus wants us to do: keep God's commandments perfectly in order to be saved--or depending upon Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments in our stead and for our sake? Which is then credited to us as our own?
Keeping the commandments is important but no one but our Lord Jesus ever kept them perfectly--right? But when we trust and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior, and trust in HIM for salvation, great and free, then HIS perfect keeping of the commandments is credited to US by faith...isn't that what Paul meant when he said that "Now to the one who does NOT work, but believes in Him Who justifies the UNgodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness"? And isn't that also what Paul meant in Romans 8, when he said the "righteous requirements of the Law"--that would be obeying the commandments, wouldn't it--"are fulfilled in us, when we walk by the Spirit and not ny the flesh (paraphrased)" And the only way to do THAT is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, isn't it?

So, if you refuse to answer my simple questions and acknowledge that I have answered YOU many times about the commandments, then there is no point in continuing this debate--is there? I can only assume that you are afraid to answer, or are refusing just to play games with me, thus demonstrating the Mormon debate tactics 3-5 listed in my signature--right?


3. Repeat the same old questions, over and over again, and....

Demonstrated on here many times.

4. Pretend we have not answered their questions or dealt with their points, to make it appear that we have not, and they have won the debate

Also demonstrated on here many times.

5. Ignore our points and Bible verses that put their quoted bible verses into proper perspective, that show that they have misinterpreted and/or misunderstood what the Bible was talking about

ALSO demonstrated on here, many times!

So, unless you give me direct, correct answers to my questions--and not what YOU claim to see in the words but what JESUS ACTUALLY SAID, then I will no longer respond to you.
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why should i answer YOU when you refuse to answer ME, most of the time?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but have eternal life."

What did Jesus say actually gives us eternal life? ACTUALLY SAY?

"your FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace."

What did Jesus say ACTUALLY SAVED THE WOMAN? What is the word He used, dberrie?

Why you refuse to answer these simple questions, and refuse to accept the fact that I have answered your other questions about keeping the commandments right here, in post no. 110?...and here it is again:

3. Repeat the same old questions, over and over again, and....

Demonstrated on here many times.

4. Pretend we have not answered their questions or dealt with their points, to make it appear that we have not, and they have won the debate

Also demonstrated on here many times.

5. Ignore our points and Bible verses that put their quoted bible verses into proper perspective, that show that they have misinterpreted and/or misunderstood what the Bible was talking about

ALSO demonstrated on here, many times!

So, unless you give me direct, correct answers to my questions--and not what YOU claim to see in the words but what JESUS ACTUALLY SAID, then I will no longer respond to you.
Which amounts to another diversion without the first answer to the posted scriptures, or to my points:

"Does Christ connect anything but keeping the commandments to the love of God here?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So--why does one have to choose between the options of John3:16 or John14:15?

Why can't keeping the commandments be an integral component to belief in Christ?(John14:15 to John3:16)


Kindly answer that, please."

Anyone able to answer those points?
 
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