Lutheran theology

Bonnie

Super Member
Which amounts to another diversion without the first answer to the posted scriptures, or to my points:

"Does Christ connect anything but keeping the commandments to the love of God here?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So--why does one have to choose between the options of John3:16 or John14:15?

Why can't keeping the commandments be an integral component to belief in Christ?(John14:15 to John3:16)

Kindly answer that, please."
Why should I answer you, when you hardly ever give me a straight-forward, direct answer?

Bye-bye. Go bother somebody else.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
It struck me today that Paul says, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."

Ashamed? Meditate on that word for a second or two!
Not sure what you are getting at, Tert.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why should I answer you, ....
Because it's a Biblical testimony which adds something to the discussion, IE--

"Does Christ connect anything but keeping the commandments to the love of God here?

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So--why does one have to choose between the options of John3:16 or John14:15?

Why can't keeping the commandments be an integral component to belief in Christ?(John14:15 to John3:16)


Kindly answer that, please."

Why do Lutherans fail to recognize scriptures which defy their theology--and circle back through their pat answers?

Bonnie--how do you collate John14:15 to Lutheran theology?
 

Tertiumquid

Member
Not sure what you are getting at, Tert.
Well, let's apply that awful word, "logic." In Romans 1, Paul says he's "not ashamed of the gospel." Why would he write that? What would provoke someone to bring in shame? Could it be.... that the "gospel" was something so outrageous, so ridiculous sounding that it could be potentially embarrassing?

As I parse it out, having a "gospel" that says "have some faith & works and you'll be OK" isn't all that embarrassing. On the other hand, having a gospel that stipulates having someone else's righteousness (Phil. 3:9), now that is a bit embarrassing, especially to a first century audience.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Well, let's apply that awful word, "logic." In Romans 1, Paul says he's "not ashamed of the gospel." Why would he write that? What would provoke someone to bring in shame? Could it be.... that the "gospel" was something so outrageous, so ridiculous sounding that it could be potentially embarrassing?

As I parse it out, having a "gospel" that says "have some faith & works and you'll be OK" isn't all that embarrassing. On the other hand, having a gospel that stipulates having someone else's righteousness (Phil. 3:9), now that is a bit embarrassing, especially to a first century audience.
Ah, I see! It flies against human logic, doesn't it? Good thing our great God and Savior is not held captive to our finite logic, eh,?
 

Tertiumquid

Member
Ah, I see! It flies against human logic, doesn't it? Good thing our great God and Savior is not held captive to our finite logic, eh,?
I once explained justification by faith alone as opposed to works righteousness to a guy at work. He totally understood what I was saying, but responded, "that's ridiculous." As I see it, it's not that non-Christians can't understand the Bible, it's that they are unable to savingly believe what it says.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I once explained justification by faith alone as opposed to works righteousness to a guy at work.

I have asked on a number of occasions for someone on this board to explain what "works righteousness" means--that response not belongs to the cricket choir.

Perhaps you would like to venture an explanation of "works righteousness"?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Well, let's apply that awful word, "logic." In Romans 1, Paul says he's "not ashamed of the gospel." Why would he write that? What would provoke someone to bring in shame? Could it be.... that the "gospel" was something so outrageous, so ridiculous sounding that it could be potentially embarrassing?

As I parse it out, having a "gospel" that says "have some faith & works and you'll be OK" isn't all that embarrassing. On the other hand, having a gospel that stipulates having someone else's righteousness (Phil. 3:9), now that is a bit embarrassing, especially to a first century audience.

That's probably why the first century choir sang this song:

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
 

Tertiumquid

Member
That's probably why the first century choir sang this song:

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
I'd give you an "A" for your ability to refer to scripture. On the other hand, I'd give you an "F" for your systematic theology and how those verse of scripture "comport" (to use of your own favorite terms) to each other.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I once explained justification by faith alone as opposed to works righteousness to a guy at work. He totally understood what I was saying, but responded, "that's ridiculous." As I see it, it's not that non-Christians can't understand the Bible, it's that they are unable to savingly believe what it says.
Well, that is most certainly true. Paul said the message of cross is foolishness to those who are perishing...and without the HS, those who are perishing cannot understand it on a spiritual level. We see that demonstrated on CARM all the time on here, from those in cults--don't we?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I'd give you an "A" for your ability to refer to scripture. On the other hand, I'd give you an "F" for your systematic theology and how those verse of scripture "comport" (to use of your own favorite terms) to each other.
Well, Tertiumquid--the scriptures comport together with or without the "F".

I believe what you might mean--as to how it comports to Lutheran theology? That's where I would get an "F", as I can't comport the Biblical testimony to Lutheran theology.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 

Tertiumquid

Member
Well, Tertiumquid--the scriptures comport together with or without the "F".

I believe what you might mean--as to how it comports to Lutheran theology? That's where I would get an "F", as I can't comport the Biblical testimony to Lutheran theology.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Your bible verse spamming will not work on me. Texts occur in contexts, the Bible has an overall coherent way it fits together.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The verse is in regard to sanctification.
Exactly--the result of salvation! We bear good fruit in salvation, not FOR salvation, because outside of salvation, our good deeds are filthy rags and without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I once explained justification by faith alone as opposed to works righteousness to a guy at work. He totally understood what I was saying, but responded, "that's ridiculous." As I see it, it's not that non-Christians can't understand the Bible, it's that they are unable to savingly believe what it says.
Hi Tert--this is one terrific sermon, which I have put down on here before, but the minister who wrote it kinda made the same observation:

Reformation – “Don’t Jump!” – Romans 3:19-28 – 10/27/19 | Lutheran Church of the Resurrection (lcrwtvl.org)

I have posted most of it on here and the next post:

Ten people are trapped on the roof of a 20 story high burning building. The only way to safety is to jump across a 25’ chasm onto the roof of the adjacent building. One person jumps 10 feet and falls to his death. Another jumps 12 feet and falls to his death. One jumps 15 feet and falls to his death. One gets a running start and pushes off the edge of the building and jumps 20 feet and falls to his death. “There is no distinction. All fall short…”

It does no good to compare one person to another. One may have jumped twice as far as another. One may have tried a lot harder than another. One may have been much more sincere than another. One may have worked all his life getting ready for this jump while another never gave it a thought until the very last minute. “There is no distinction. All fall short…”

And do you want to know the really crazy thing about all of this? The really crazy thing is that we keep trying to make the jump. We are all incredible optimists when it comes to estimating the human potential to save ourselves. We think that if we just do this or do that, if we try harder, if we are more sincere, we’d be able to make it. If we use this program, if we elect this person, then we’d ALL be able to make it. But “there is no distinction. All fall short…”

ALL fall short. ALL, no exceptions. NO works of ours will keep us from "falling short." Not tithing, not temple works, not saying so many "Hail Marys", not doing penance, not doing this good deed or that good deed because "ALL have sinned and fallen short"!


But “there is no distinction. All fall short…”

St. Paul shuts off every escape route we try to take to save ourselves. “All have sinned and therefore all fall short.” And so in our desperation we cry, “What must I do to be saved?” Which is the first smart thing we’ve said here so far....

In Luther’s day, the Church was telling everyone that they needed to “Jump!” And it provided a program to help people jump further. Luther tried it about as hard as anyone can try. But at the end of the day it brought him no assurance or peace. No matter what he did or how hard he tried, he always felt that it was never ENOUGH, he could have done MORE. Luther said, “I was more than once driven to the very abyss of despair so that I wished I had never been created.”...

The voice of the Holy Spirit spoke to him through the Apostle Paul. “But now the righteous of God, has been made known APART FROM THE LAW… the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.”

“But now…” Paul said. And with those two words, the ground that we stand before God begins to quake, and the foundation we have built our life before God on begins to collapse. God is breaking into this world with a new and completely different remedy for the human dilemma. He is taking the universe by the corners and shaking it out like a sheet in the wind. A new wine is bursting the old wine skins....

The voice from above says, “Don’t jump!” “Stop trying to jump!” “I will come to you and I will rescue you.” “I will deliver you.” “I will lift you up as on eagle’s wings.”...

“Don’t jump!”
God is doing a NEW THING. “New,” not as in ‘an improved old thing’ or an ‘better way’ for you to save yourself, but “new” as in ‘totally unheard of.’ ‘New’ as in, “no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined.” (1 Cor. 2:9)

God rescues you “WHILE YOU ARE STILL IN YOUR SINS,” not waiting for you to make the first move or get your act together. God judges you “apart from the law.” “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in His sight.”
It’s not about what you must do OR what you have done. It doesn’t depend upon how hard you’ve tried or your circumstances or on what others say about you....

“You are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” In the midst of all of our STRIVING and STRESSING to PLEASE GOD, the heavens open and the voice from above declares – “This is my Son WITH WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED. Listen to Him.”

So it turns out there is a distinction after all. All have not sinned. There is One who has not. “There is only one who is good.” And it’s not you. It’s Jesus Christ. It’s not about what you must do or have done. It’s ALL about what He came to do and has done for you...

Continued in next post.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Part 2 of the sermon:

He is the One who has made the jump. He made the jump from heaven to earth.
He jumped from the safety of heaven to this burning building called earth where we are all perishing.
He WHO HAD NO SINS came to you while YOU WERE STILL IN YOUR SINS and took your sins onto Himself.
He who is the JUDGE was judged BY THE LAW in your place.
And the judgment that was given Him was death. But it was YOUR DEATH He died because it was YOUR SINS He bore. “He was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities… For the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” (Is.53:5-6)
But then, HE DID A NEW THING. He made the jump from death and the grave to life and the right hand of the Father.
Just as, even today, He makes the jump from the glory of the Father in heaven, to this bread and this wine and to your lips and your mouth.

So, “we hold that one is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.” (vs.28) This is radical and it changes everything. It makes all your good works and good deeds COUNT FOR NOTHING toward your salvation.

Strange as it sounds, lot’s of folks don’t like this. Folks who have put a lot of work and energy into making the jump don’t like this. ‘You mean it all counts for nothing?’ “Then what becomes of our boasting?”

What fools we are. Repent. “Let every mouth be stopped.” For once in your life, just shut up. Just ‘stand still.’ Just ‘listen.’

Stop trying to “put forward” your good works and your good life before God. Because God has already “put forward Christ Jesus, as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith.”

“Propitiation” is one of those $100 theological words that is worth an explanation. “Propitiation” has to do with justice. ‘DIVINE JUSTICE’ is done for you by the blood of Jesus Christ shed for you. The price is paid IN FULL, no balance due, no I.O.U.’s, no time in Purgatory. “It is finished” means just what it says.

But justice done doesn’t necessarily mean that the relationship is restored. If someone hurts you or commits a crime against you, even if justice is been done and even if they pay for their crime, even though you’ve ‘forgiven them,’ that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re friends again. There are still those hard feelings. That ‘wall of separation’ is still there.

But a “propitiatory” sacrifice means that the relationship is completely restored. The wall is completely gone. “It is ‘very good.’ “I call you my friends.” “Bring quickly the best robe… and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring the fatted calf and kill it and let us eat and celebrate.” (Luke 15:22-23).

So when the Holy Spirit opens our mind and turns our heart so that we do the unheard of and dangerous thing, and GIVE UP ON OURSELVES and trust solely in Jesus Christ, we have ‘peace with God.’ We are “free” from all the worrying and striving and stressing about our salvation. The Son, by His GOD PLEASING SACRIFICE on the cross, “has set you free indeed.”

Not FREE to continue in sin. FREE to love God and FREE to love our neighbor.

This is where those in works righteous cults and heterodoxical churches really fail. They don't want to give up on trying to please God with their own works, whether temple works, praying the Rosary and doing penance, but trusting SOLELY ON Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross to save us. And those that will not do so, that think that they must help save themselves by their own works are really saying this: "I don't trust that Jesus did it all for me; I need to do something to help save myself, so I can have some control. If I trust ONLY in Jesus Christ, then I give up all control and must let HIM control me and my life from now on."

Scary stuff for those who think they are saved unto eternal life, but are not!

As long as you were doing all of our ‘good works’ in order to be saved, we were doing them all ‘for me.’ I’m doing good to you because, in the long run, it’s going to help me. Our good works done to earn favor with God are all done in selfishness. And there is no ‘love’ in ‘selfishness’ no matter how ‘good’ our ‘good works’ might be.

But now that Christ Jesus has set you free from all of that, we are free to actually see our neighbor and do good works solely for his good. And there IS real ‘love’ in that.

So then, what does it mean to live ‘by faith’? For one thing, it means that we stop worrying about our salvation because we’ve already been saved. It means that we put our trust in Christ and Him crucified and not at all in ourselves. But it also means that we have been ‘set free’ to truly love one another as we have been loved by God.


To live ‘by faith,’ means that we live IN THE PRESENT where real life is lived with all of its trials and troubles, all of its sorrows and all of its joys. We LIVE IN THE PRESENT because God has shown us “his righteousness at the PRESENT TIME…”

In the ‘present time,’ when it feels as though the world is on fire and the foundations are crumbling and the future is so uncertain. “Though hordes of devils fill the land all threatening to devour us, we tremble not, unmoved, WE STAND.” We don’t jump.

We love. We serve. We encourage and comfort one another. We proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ, because there is no difference, everyone needs it.

Reformation – “Don’t Jump!” – Romans 3:19-28 – 10/27/19 | Lutheran Church of the Resurrection (lcrwtvl.org)

Do note the last few bolded parts, and how we are to LIVE OUT OUR FAITH--in doing good works of love towards our neighbor, for in faith in Jesus Christ, we can finally love our neighbor and do good as Jesus would want us to--not to GET saved, but because we are ALREADY SAVED--something those in works righteous churches just do not seem to be able to wrap their hearts and minds around. It is "foolishness" to them. Sad, isn't it?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
The verse is in regard to sanctification.

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Fair enough.

So--this is the order of sanctification?

1) Made free from sin
2) Servants
3) Fruit
4) Eternal life

In Lutheran theology--it's salvation before fruit--not at the end. All fruit is excluded in obtaining salvation, in Lutheran theology.
 
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