Lutheran theology

dberrie2020

Well-known member
This is where those in works righteous cults and heterodoxical churches really fail. They don't want to give up on trying to please God with their own works, whether temple works, praying the Rosary and doing penance, but trusting SOLELY ON Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross to save us.
So--how does the requirement to keep God's commandments--- preclude what God did for us on the cross?

1 John 2:3-4 ---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19--- King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Revelation 22:14 --King James Version (KJV)

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--- King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21--- King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 5:2-3--- King James Version (KJV)
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Is that what you refer to as "works righteousness"?
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
So--how does the requirement to keep God's commandments--- preclude what God did for us on the cross?

1 John 2:3-4 ---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19--- King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Revelation 22:14 --King James Version (KJV)

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--- King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21--- King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 5:2-3--- King James Version (KJV)
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Is that what you refer to as "works righteousness"?

Comporting the Biblical witness with the Biblical testimony | CARM Forums
Why should I answer you, when you hardly ever give me a straight-forward, direct answer?

Bye-bye. Go bother somebody else.

Lutheran theology | Page 7 | CARM Forums
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
And how does that preclude the scriptures connecting our obedience with God's grace unto life?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
 

Tertiumquid

Member
Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Fair enough.

So--this is the order of sanctification?

1) Made free from sin
2) Servants
3) Fruit
4) Eternal life

In Lutheran theology--it's salvation before fruit--not at the end. All fruit is excluded in obtaining salvation, in Lutheran theology.
I am unfamiliar with the theological category, "order of sanctification." Is it an LDS construct?

Texts occur in contexts (biblical theology). The Bible has an overall coherent way it fits together (systematic theology). Say I park myself at 1 Cor 6:11 and apply the "order of salvation" construct, that order becomes entirely past tense: you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified.

A forest has many trees. If you focus on one tree and claim "that's the whole forest," you'll fail the "What's a forest?" test. 1 Cor. 6:11 is a different tree in the same forest of Paul's writings. If God is the ultimate author of the Bible, it should have a coherent systematic message. The forest will have a diverse set of aspects supporting each other into a coherent unity.
 
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Bonnie

Well-known member
I am unfamiliar with the theological category, "order of sanctification." Is it an LDS construct?

Texts occur in contexts (biblical theology). The Bible has an overall coherent way it fits together (systematic theology). Say I park myself at 1 Cor 6:11 and apply the "order of salvation" construct, that order becomes entirely past tense: you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified.

A forest has many trees. If you focus on one tree and claim "that's the whole forest," you'll fail the "What's a forest?" test. 1 Cor. 6:11 is a different tree in the same forest of Paul's writings. If God is the ultimate author of the Bible, it should have a coherent systematic message. The forest will have a diverse set of aspects supporting each other into a coherent unity.
....and still be one forest. :)
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
And how does that preclude the scriptures connecting our obedience with God's grace unto life?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Lutheran theology | Page 7 | CARM Forums
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I am unfamiliar with the theological category, "order of sanctification." Is it an LDS construct?

No. It's a reference to a claim the Lutherans might make whenever scriptures are posted which connect our acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--with His grace.

The usual reply is--"but were those things done IN salvation--or for salvation"? IOW--an order must be established which comport with Lutheran theology, as the Biblical text can't be aligned with their theology, without that insertion of occurrence.

For example:

John 10:27-28---King James Version
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The Lutherans have to redefine the ordering process:

1) eternal life
2) follow Him

(instead of the natural occurrence of "hear my voice", "follow me", "eternal life).

Why? Because their theology excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ in obtaining life. Then--they follow that up with--"do you follow the commandments perfectly"? (as if that precludes acts of obedience to Jesus Christ, as necessary to receive of His grace unto life).
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Texts occur in contexts (biblical theology). The Bible has an overall coherent way it fits together (systematic theology).

I agree.

So--how do Lutherans fit the Biblical testimony with their theology?

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Say I park myself at 1 Cor 6:11 and apply the "order of salvation" construct, that order becomes entirely past tense: you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified.

A forest has many trees. If you focus on one tree and claim "that's the whole forest," you'll fail the "What's a forest?" test.

No one has claimed it's the "whole forest"--but it does constitute trees in the forest. So--how does eliminating those trees somehow pass the "What's a forest" test?

1 Cor. 6:11 is a different tree in the same forest of Paul's writings.

Then why do the Lutherans feel a need to exclude those trees?

If God is the ultimate author of the Bible, it should have a coherent systematic message. The forest will have a diverse set of aspects supporting each other into a coherent unity.

I agree. Then how do the Lutherans join the scripture here with their theology?

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
 

Tertiumquid

Member
I agree.

So--how do Lutherans fit the Biblical testimony with their theology?

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.



No one has claimed it's the "whole forest"--but it does constitute trees in the forest. So--how does eliminating those trees somehow pass the "What's a forest" test?



Then why do the Lutherans feel a need to exclude those trees?



I agree. Then how do the Lutherans join the scripture here with their theology?

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
You ask a lot of "why" and "how" questions of things that have been already explained to you already over the years.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
So you're making up your own theological terms about what you think someone 'might make" ?? Wow. The dberrie pinball machine has tilted.

How is John10:27-28, or that Lutherans rearrange the order of it-- associated with "my own theological terms"?

For example:

John 10:27-28---King James Version
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

That has this order:

1) hear voice
2) follow Him
3) eternal life

The Lutherans have to redefine the ordering process:

1) eternal life
2) follow Him

(instead of the natural occurrence of "hear my voice", "follow me", "eternal life).

Why? Because their theology excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ in obtaining life. Then--they follow that up with--"do you follow the commandments perfectly"? (as if that precludes acts of obedience to Jesus Christ, as necessary to receive of His grace unto life).

Care to engage that point?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You ask a lot of "why" and "how" questions of things that have been already explained to you already over the years.
And answered with the same retort--"I already answered that".

Care to actually engage the scriptures--and explain how the Lutherans comport their theology to the scriptural witness?

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

That defies Lutheran theology.
 

Tertiumquid

Member
Care to engage that point?

Sure. It's very simple actually. I've noticed you tend to treat biblical sanctification passages as justification passages, as well as passages that are descriptive, you treat as prescriptive. I suspect you'll keep posting all your sanctification / descriptive passages. The Holy Spirit though clearly refutes you:

Romans 4:7-8
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

God counts righteousness apart from works... all works. God said it, I believe it, that settles it. Let the Mormon, Roman Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, or any schwärmer bring forth their theological poison, I've been inoculated with the antidote.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Sure. It's very simple actually. I've noticed you tend to treat biblical sanctification passages as justification passages, as well as passages that are descriptive, you treat as prescriptive. I suspect you'll keep posting all your sanctification / descriptive passages. The Holy Spirit though clearly refutes you:
This Holy Spirit?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Romans 4:7-8
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
That's a reference to the works of the Mosaic Law--as Abraham didn't live under the works of the law.

Romans 4:10-16---King James Version
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

The point is--the contrast between "father Abraham" which lived under the gospel--verses the Mosaic Law--not of obedience verses non obedience to the gospel.

So--could you explain for us why Paul would connect our works and eternal life--just two chapters earlier--and comport that to your interpretation of Romans4?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

How do you bring that together with your interpretation?

God counts righteousness apart from works... all works.

And this is the proof?

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Could you explain to us how you comport that testimony with your claim above?

Could you also hitch your idea about Romans 4--with the testimony of Jesus?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Because if you can't do anything but pit scriptures against one another--then the Bible becomes a very unreliable source of truth.

So--how do you comport them together? My explanation is found above.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Sure. It's very simple actually. I've noticed you tend to treat biblical sanctification passages as justification passages, as well as passages that are descriptive, you treat as prescriptive. I suspect you'll keep posting all your sanctification / descriptive passages. The Holy Spirit though clearly refutes you:

Romans 4:7-8
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

God counts righteousness apart from works... all works. God said it, I believe it, that settles it. Let the Mormon, Roman Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, or any schwärmer bring forth their theological poison, I've been inoculated with the antidote.
As have I. Nothing inoculates like the true word of God rightly divided, does it? :)

What those in works-righteous, Christ dishonoring pseudo-Christian cults do not understand is what it means to be a NEW creation in Christ Jesus, and what it does in the life of the believer. For such enables us to bear good fruit for God, but we do so IN salvation, not FOR salvation. Doing it FOR salvation would be doing it "all for me" and that is selfish, as that sermon I posted points out.

But the bottom line is-such folk do not trust in Jesus Christ to do the job of salvation completely. They do not. It is...scary to let go and let Jesus do it all, because it takes salvation entirely out of our control and it is scary to lose control. Yet, Who better to put our salvation into the hands of? Who better to trust to save us and save us completely? Can anyone do anything better than Jesus Christ?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
As have I. Nothing inoculates like the true word of God rightly divided, does it?

What those in works-righteous, Christ dishonoring pseudo-Christian cults do not understand is what it means ...

That amounts to little less than trash talk, if you cannot explain to us why this isn't the "true word of God"--or how you comport it to your theology:

1 John 2:3-4 ---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

1 John 3:7---King James Version

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Those are just some of the scriptures I posted on this page alone--and it defies Lutheran theology--and you, nor anyone else, have attempted to extricate yourself from the implications of it's testimony. In fact--I don't believe it's possible, and possibly, neither do you, as it has not been touched, save it be the Taint so!!! responses, IE--"I already answered that"---"out of context"--yada, yada, yada.

Care to engage those scriptures--and explain how you correlate your theology--with the Biblical testimony above?
 

Tertiumquid

Member
That's a reference to the works of the Mosaic Law--as Abraham didn't live under the works of the law.


The point is--the contrast between "father Abraham" which lived under the gospel--verses the Mosaic Law--not of obedience verses non obedience to the gospel.
Paul is the infallible interpreter of the Old Testament, not dberrie. In Romans 4 Paul uses Abraham and David: two people from different periods of time, both saying the same thing: to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

God counts righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6b). Use your verse spamming and the word "comport" all you want, but the word of God stands, and you are clearly in error.
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Paul is the infallible interpreter of the Old Testament, not dberrie. In Romans 4 Paul uses Abraham and David: two people from different periods of time, both saying the same thing: to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

God counts righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6b).

God counts righteousness apart from the works of the Law--but neither Paul nor God counts righteousness apart from fruits:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Matthew 7:19-21----King James Version

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So--how do you harmonize your claim--with the testimony of the above scriptures?

Tertiumquid--God did justify the ungodly, as He died for the sins of the whole world, and justified all men of life--as a free gift:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Paul wasn't claiming all men obtain life---only that all men--including the ungodly--are justified unto life, IE--have the opportunity to inherit eternal life--because God absolved all men of the condemnation of the Fall--through His Atonement and resurrection (death and hell--as an automatic consequence of the Fall)--as a free gift to all men.

To actually inherit eternal life---as a personal reception--one has to meet the conditions of the Redeemer:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

There is a difference between one being brought to the gates of life--and one entering in. Eternal life--as an opportunity--was purchased for all men (ungodly included) through the Blood and resurrection of Christ--free gift. Christ alone. Christ plus nothing of yours or mine. Free. Absolutely free. One is brought to the gates there, ungodly and else. All redeemed from the Fall--and now answers for their own choices, and not Adam's.

Lutherans have a confused theology, which cannot be comported to the Biblical testimony.
 
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