Lutheran theology

Bonnie

Super Member
That amounts to little less than trash talk, if you cannot explain to us why this isn't the "true word of God"--or how you comport it to your theology:

1 John 2:3-4 ---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

1 John 3:7---King James Version

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Those are just some of the scriptures I posted on this page alone--and it defies Lutheran theology--and you, nor anyone else, have attempted to extricate yourself from the implications of it's testimony. In fact--I don't believe it's possible, and possibly, neither do you, as it has not been touched, save it be the Taint so!!! responses, IE--"I already answered that"---"out of context"--yada, yada, yada.

Care to engage those scriptures--and explain how you correlate your theology--with the Biblical testimony above?
Care to explain why you won't answer our questions but keep repeating yourself, even after we have answered you? And care to explain why you never seem to remember the following, that I have put down on here before?

The Obedience Which Is Faith — Romans 1:5 and 16:26 – Grace Evangelical Society (faithalone.org)

Saving faith is obedience

Commenting on our expression in Rom 1:5, Anders Nygren writes,

One receives in faith that which God proffers us through Christ. This is “the obedience of faith.” (Romans, p. 55)
Here is a fair treatment of the text. Paul is simply speaking of the obedience which is faith.

It is biblically correct to speak of faith as an act of obedience. After all, God commands us to believe the Gospel (e.g., Acts 16:31).

Support for this view is seen in many passages. Acts 6:7 says that “many of the priests were obedient to the faith.” Romans 10:16 and 2 Thess 1:8 speak of obeying or disobeying the Gospel. See also, John 3:36; 6:28-29; 1 Pet 1:2, 22; 2:7-8; and Acts 5:32.

CONCLUSION​

Jesus called for people to believe in Him. Thus whenever anyone believes in Him, he is obeying Him. Saving faith is an act of obedience.

So, you should not be bothered by the idea of faith as an act of obedience.

The obedience of faith spoken of in Rom 1:5 and 16:26 does not refer to obeying all that God has commanded. No one but the Lord Jesus has done that. Rather, it refers specifically to obeying the command to believe the Gospel. If you’ve done that, you’ve exercised the obedience of faith.

When are you going to address what this says?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You ask a lot of "why" and "how" questions of things that have been already explained to you already over the years.
Thank you for that witness. It validates what I have been writing on here for years--that we HAVE answered the posters questions on several subjects--James 2:24, Matt. 19, etc.--many times over the years on here, and on the Mormon board.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Care to explain why you won't answer our questions but keep repeating yourself, even after we have answered you? And care to explain why you never seem to remember the following, that I have put down on here before?

The Obedience Which Is Faith — Romans 1:5 and 16:26 – Grace Evangelical Society (faithalone.org)

For this simple reason:

Any attempt to eliminate keeping the commandments from His grace unto life--is pre-empted by the testimony of the Biblical NT writers:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Before Lutherans can ask anyone to answer to your posted article---they might want to explain why the testimony of the scriptures connects keeping the commandments with eternal life. That defies Lutheran theology--period.

I'm here to compare the testimony of the Biblical scriptures --to Lutheran theology. The Biblical testimonies above--are neither narrow--nor do they conform to Lutheran theology. Quite to the contrary--it grinds Lutheran theology to powder--and in no uncertain way. Your question above does nothing to stop that damaging progression.

Care to engage the scriptures themselves--and explain to us why they defy Lutheran theology?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
For this simple reason:

Any attempt to eliminate keeping the commandments from His grace unto life--is pre-empted by the testimony of the Biblical NT writers:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Before Lutherans can ask anyone to answer to your posted article---they might want to explain why the testimony of the scriptures connects keeping the commandments with eternal life. That defies Lutheran theology--period.

I'm here to compare the testimony of the Biblical scriptures --to Lutheran theology. The Biblical testimonies above--are neither narrow--nor do they conform to Lutheran theology. Quite to the contrary--it grinds Lutheran theology to powder--and in no uncertain way. Your question above does nothing to stop that damaging progression.

Care to engage the scriptures themselves--and explain to us why they defy Lutheran theology?
Did you read what was in the link? Yes or no? if you did, did you understand what it said? Did you understand what is in the snippet from it that I posted? Yes or no?

Remember this: "Your faith has saved you; go in Peace." (Luke 7:50)

What did Jesus say actually SAVED the woman, dberrie? What word did He actually use? Did He add anything to that word as to what saved her? Yes or no?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Remember this: "Your faith has saved you; go in Peace." (Luke 7:50)

What did Jesus say actually SAVED the woman, dberrie? What word did He actually use? Did He add anything to that word as to what saved her? Yes or no?

You keep posting that scripture--and I keep asking you--how do you feel that scripture pre-empts or precludes these scriptures?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

So--is it Luke7:50 PLUS all the rest of the scriptures--or minus all the rest?

If it's plus--then one has to add them all together--and that puts the Lutheran theology back in deep waters--and I believe your point is brought to naught, as a single point of salvation, excluding all the rest.

If it's minus--then you have a selective theology.

I add them all together--as all being integral to one another--and fitting as one whole.

How do you fit the above scriptures to Lutheran theology?
 

Tertiumquid

Member
Tertiumquid--God did justify the ungodly, as He died for the sins of the whole world, and justified all men of life--as a free gift:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
The confused theology is yours, especially your understanding of the key systematic presentation of justification presented in Romans. Romans 9 echoes back to Paul's earlier points: the gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained righteousness by faith. Israel, who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed. Why? because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.

Moses writes about basing righteousness on law: the person who does the commandments will live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
 
Last edited:

Tertiumquid

Member
You keep posting that scripture--and I keep asking you--how do you feel that scripture pre-empts or precludes these scriptures?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

So--is it Luke7:50 PLUS all the rest of the scriptures--or minus all the rest?

If it's plus--then one has to add them all together--and that puts the Lutheran theology back in deep waters--and I believe your point is brought to naught, as a single point of salvation, excluding all the rest.

If it's minus--then you have a selective theology.

I add them all together--as all being integral to one another--and fitting as one whole.

How do you fit the above scriptures to Lutheran theology?
This spam-texting of Scripture that you've done here on the Lutheran CARM forum for years demonstrates you're either trolling or simply not "hearing" what the Lutherans have been responding back to you. I suspect it's more the former, but my hope for you is that it's the later, because faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. It may be that you simply can't hear.

It is certainly true that if one keeps the commandments, one will live. For instance, "do not lie" can be a meritorious work that one should "do" in order to achieve salvation. The Bible certainly teaches that. Or: "do not lie" can be a way to please God in response to the gift of the righteousness of God. "Do not lie" can be prescriptive or descriptive.

The Lutherans have been telling you for years that those with the gift of the righteousness of Christ see the law as the descriptive characteristics of a Christian. On the other hand, when you ignore the entire book of Romans you turn keeping the commandments into a meritorious work.

So: here's my question for you: Do you understand what the Lutherans have said to you for years, and if so, why are you trolling them? If you're trolling, it's a total violation of the law of God (not loving your neighbor as yourself). It demonstrates you're not keeping the commandments and it demonstrates a heart not seeking to please God (hence, a total failure of both a prescriptive and descriptive understanding of the law).
 

Bonnie

Super Member
This spam-texting of Scripture that you've done here on the Lutheran CARM forum for years demonstrates you're either trolling or simply not "hearing" what the Lutherans have been responding back to you. I suspect it's more the former, but my hope for you is that it's the later, because faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. It may be that you simply can't hear.

It is certainly true that if one keeps the commandments, one will live. For instance, "do not lie" can be a meritorious work that one should "do" in order to achieve salvation. The Bible certainly teaches that. Or: "do not lie" can be a way to please God in response to the gift of the righteousness of God. "Do not lie" can be prescriptive or descriptive.

The Lutherans have been telling you for years that those with the gift of the righteousness of Christ see the law as the descriptive characteristics of a Christian. On the other hand, when you ignore the entire book of Romans you turn keeping the commandments into a meritorious work.

So: here's my question for you: Do you understand what the Lutherans have said to you for years, and if so, why are you trolling them? If you're trolling, it's a total violation of the law of God (not loving your neighbor as yourself). It demonstrates you're not keeping the commandments and it demonstrates a heart not seeking to please God (hence, a total failure of both a prescriptive and descriptive understanding of the law).
Thanks for your words, Tertium. I wonder what is so all-fired difficult to understand that yes, we should keep the commandments, but that the ONLY way for us to do so is vicariously by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior, BECAUSE THEN HIS perfect keeping of the commandments is then CREDITED TO US AS OUR OWN...what part of this do cultists NOT UNDERSTAND? But as you have written before on here, unbelievers can understand intellectually what we mean, but NOT spiritually--it sound like foolishness to them--ridiculous! They have Teflon hearts that cannot understand the spiritual things of God, because they don't have the HS to enable them to understand on a spiritual level--so, our Bible verses and points just "slide" off their "hearts."
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The confused theology is yours, especially your understanding of the key systematic presentation of justification presented in Romans. Romans 9 echoes back to Paul's earlier points: the gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained righteousness by faith. Israel, who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed. Why? because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.

And what is your evidence it's not based on a faith with works?

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

IOW--why is a works without faith any different than a faith without works?

Moses writes about basing righteousness on law: the person who does the commandments will live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

So--shall we introduce this testimony here?

Luke 6:46---King James Version
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Are you claiming those who confess and believe--but don't do what He says--are still saved?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So--how are those who confess, independent of bringing forth fruits--prevented from being cast into the fire? Enter into the kingdom of heaven? Is it confession, belief, plus doing the will of God--or confession minus doing the will of God?

A faith with works--or a faith without works?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Thanks for your words, Tertium. I wonder what is so all-fired difficult to understand that yes, we should keep the commandments, but that the ONLY way for us to do so is vicariously by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior, BECAUSE THEN HIS perfect keeping of the commandments is then CREDITED TO US AS OUR OWN..

Again--if "His perfect keeping of the commandments is then CREDITED TO US AS OUR OWN"--then why are all men judged according to their own works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
 

Tertiumquid

Member
And what is your evidence it's not based on a faith with works?

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

IOW--why is a works without faith any different than a faith without works?



So--shall we introduce this testimony here?

Luke 6:46---King James Version
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Are you claiming those who confess and believe--but don't do what He says--are still saved?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So--how are those who confess, independent of bringing forth fruits--prevented from being cast into the fire? Enter into the kingdom of heaven? Is it confession, belief, plus doing the will of God--or confession minus doing the will of God?

A faith with works--or a faith without works?
Are you trolling? If so... you're breaking the commandments. In fact, based on your repeated posts of the same questions, I don't see any evidence that you actually care about the commandments or works. You certainly violate love your neighbor as yourself every time you ignore what's been said and then go on to ask the same questions over and over again.

I could troll you with the same stuff over and over, but I'm actually intimidated by a Holy God and using His word in a disrespectful way.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Are you trolling? If so... you're breaking the commandments. In fact, based on your repeated posts of the same questions, I don't see any evidence that you actually care about the commandments or works. You certainly violate love your neighbor as yourself every time you ignore what's been said and then go on to ask the same questions over and over again.

I could troll you with the same stuff over and over, but I'm actually intimidated by a Holy God and using His word in a disrespectful way.

You might want to relay that to the Lutheran on the Mormonism board--who has been there for years, attacking everything LDS--with the same rhetoric, over and over. I can't discuss Lutheranism in depth there--so I thought I would come here to discuss it.

Meanwhile--the Savior did care about keeping the commandments--so much so--He connected keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How does one connect that with Lutheran theology?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
1 John 2:2---King James Version
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
does the definition of propitiation include the appeasement of the wrath of God?
Will there be people that end up in Hell?
Are those in Hell under the wrath of God?

if the answer to all those questions is "yes"
then by definition; propitiation was not made for those who end up in Hell;
therefore, propitiation was not made for all
 

Tertiumquid

Member
You might want to relay that to the Lutheran on the Mormonism board--who has been there for years, attacking everything LDS--with the same rhetoric, over and over. I can't discuss Lutheranism in depth there--so I thought I would come here to discuss it.

Meanwhile--the Savior did care about keeping the commandments--so much so--He connected keeping the commandments with eternal life:
The trolling question was addressed to you. If your motivation is revenge posting against the Lutherans, then you know nothing about the holy law of God or keeping the commandments.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The trolling question was addressed to you. If your motivation is revenge posting against the Lutherans, then you know nothing about the holy law of God or keeping the commandments.

Again--you might want to rely that to the person who has spent years on the Mormonism forum--attacking everything LDS--with the same arguments--over and over.

Bellyaching over why the Lutherans are called to answer for their theology is of little consequence to me.

So--is the ole adage one reaps what they sow--a true principle?

Time for the Lutherans to answer why they can't comport their theology to the Biblical witness:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 

Tertiumquid

Member
Again--you might want to rely that to the person who has spent years on the Mormonism forum--attacking everything LDS--with the same arguments--over and over.
Again: the trolling question was directed at you.

I can do the spam repeat myself thing also. Keep it up. I've had a lot of coffee.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Again: the trolling question was directed at you.

I can do the spam repeat myself thing also. Keep it up. I've had a lot of coffee.

I'm convinced coffee can't help one collate the Savior's testimony with Lutheran theology:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Care to engage that testimony?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
does the definition of propitiation include the appeasement of the wrath of God?

It does when it come to the absolvement of all mankind from the condemnation brought to all men due to the Fall:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


IOW--death and hell is conquered for all men--as it relates to the Fall.(o death, where is thy sting, o grave, where is thy victory?)

Will there be people that end up in Hell?

Yes--but not because of the Fall. All were released from the condemnation of the Fall through the Atonement(propitiation for all men) and resurrection of Jesus Christ.(death and hell--as it relates to the Fall).

All now answer for their own choices:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

IOW--only the "second death" occurs for those who refuse to obey God(refuse to meet the Redeemer's conditions)--the "first death" has been Atoned for--as a free gift to all men. All men absolved of the condemnation of the Fall, and are now brought to the doors of eternal life(justification of life)--as an opportunity.

Are those in Hell under the wrath of God?

if the answer to all those questions is "yes"
then by definition; propitiation was not made for those who end up in Hell;
therefore, propitiation was not made for all

The propitiation didn't forgive personal sins--it justified all of life, IE--it opened the door of eternal life for all men, by releasing them from the condemnation of the Fall(death and hell--as an automatic consequence of the Fall).

To obtain the forgiveness of personal sins:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
It does when it come to the absolvement of all mankind from the condemnation brought to all men due to the Fall:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


IOW--death and hell is conquered for all men--as it relates to the Fall.(o death, where is thy sting, o grave, where is thy victory?)



Yes--but not because of the Fall. All were released from the condemnation of the Fall through the Atonement(propitiation for all men) and resurrection of Jesus Christ.(death and hell--as it relates to the Fall).

All now answer for their own choices:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

IOW--only the "second death" occurs for those who refuse to obey God(refuse to meet the Redeemer's conditions)--the "first death" has been Atoned for--as a free gift to all men. All men absolved of the condemnation of the Fall, and are now brought to the doors of eternal life(justification of life)--as an opportunity.



The propitiation didn't forgive personal sins--it justified all of life, IE--it opened the door of eternal life for all men, by releasing them from the condemnation of the Fall(death and hell--as an automatic consequence of the Fall).

To obtain the forgiveness of personal sins:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Are those in Hell under the wrath of God?
was propitiation made for those who are in Hell under the wrath of God?
 

Tertiumquid

Member
I'm convinced coffee can't help one collate the Savior's testimony with Lutheran theology:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Care to engage that testimony?
"Collate" and "comport." Whenever I see those two words, I think of you. Care to engage why you ask questions but won't directly answer anything without spam-quoting "works" passages?
 
Top