Majority of scholars? Who, and where?

[The Pixie]

I'm not sure if atheists believe that brain fizz (thoughts, reasoning, ideas, beliefs, etc) equate to immaterial products of the brain.

As I understand it "fizz" references emergence. Either flat drink plus carbon dioxide gives as a fizzy drink; or the fizz seems to emerge from the drink when you open the cap. Either it, it fails to really capture the idea of emergence with respect to consciousness, as it fails to address complexity.

Emergence: the remarkable simplicity of complexity

From the fractal patterns of snowflakes to cellular lifeforms, our universe is full of complex phenomena – but how does this complexity arise? “Emergence” describes the ability of individual components…

theconversation.com

 

[The Pixie]

It actually starts in Genesis 1:1

So let us see what you found in the Bible about the doctrine of the trinity, as opposed to the existence of three things.

In the beginning, God.....

In the Hebrew,
Bereshith bara elohim.

The -im suffix in the Hebrew is a pluralization of the word.

El is the word, God.
Elohim is the word Gods.

Thus from the very first sentence, God is showing himself as more than an absolute Singularity.

So two things. Likely El and his consort Asherah, as it happens, because the passage dates back to Israel's polytheistic roots.

But either way nothing about the doctrine, just that there is more than one. FAILED.

I've previously showed that God's Spirit hovered on the surface of the deep, in Genesis 1:2.

In Genesis 1:26, God says,
Let us make man in our image and likeness....
In Genesis 11:7, God again says
Let us....

Same again. Two things, but no doctrine of the trinity. FAILED.

In Deuteronomy 6:4, the great confession of all Jewish people who believe in YHVH,

Shma Yisrael
YHVH elohenu
YHVH echad

There are two words for the number one in Hebrew.

Echad
Yachid

Both exist in the Bible.

I have no idea what your point here, but certainly no doctrine of the trinity here. FAILED.

Echad is used in Genesis 2, where the man and the woman shall be one flesh.

It's used in Genesis 11, where it says that the people building the tower of Babel are as one people.

3 articles that describe the concept of echad.

https://www.chaimbentorah.com/2017/01/word-study-one-echad-or-yachid/

https://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-yachid-vs-echad.htm

https://jroeloffs.weebly.com/blog/yachid-vs-echad-a-battle-for-the-trinity

Yachid is an absolute Singularity.
One. There's one pencil, one penny, one sun, one moon. If you're in the room by yourself, then you are yachid in that room.

The concept of a pluralized unity is found everywhere in life.

Right. And I am sure you do not believe all those examples of "pluralized unity is found everywhere in life" are similar in nature to the trinity, as per Christian doctrine.

The holy trinity is not just a group of three things analogous to a set of triplets.

The doctrine is far more than that, and so what you say here cannot be that doctrine. FAILED.

I have an apple tree. It has dozens of apples on it. It's one apple tree.

My wife and I are one family. There's my wife and I.

Are either of those analogous to the trinity, as per Christian doctrine?

No.

The doctrine is far more than that, and so what you say here cannot be that doctrine. FAILED.

We learn in the new testament by Jesus himself that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Ah, now we are getting somewhere. So, where in the NT does it make that clear?

Notice in Matthew 28:18-20, he doesn't say,

Baptizing them in the names (plural) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

He says

Baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

At last, an actual Bible verse.

And, well, here is the thing. Their names are one thing they do not share. This is certainly not the Christian doctrine of the trinity. FAILED.

As you have several websites that detail the Triune nature of YHVH, I won't bother rehashing clearly described ideas, and verses.

There are no such verses Steve.

YHVH is
Father
Son
Holy Spirit.

The Father is not the Son, nor is he the Holy Spirit.
The Son, Jesus, is not the Father, nor is he the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor is he the Son.

The Father is God.
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are YHVH.

As described in the various articles, each have their own respective duties, responsibilities, activities.

You just said you would not "bother rehashing clearly described ideas" and then did exactly that!

And none of it helps you because nothing you say is is supported by verses in the Bible.

One description states...

The Father Calls/Draws John 6:44
The Son Saves John 6:37
The Holy Spirit regenerates Titus 3:5

They never act at odds against each other.
They never haggle with each other. They never contradict each other, regardless of what someone says.

This is really clutching at straws. You are pulling verses from three different books and mashing them together, and still you cannot squeeze out the Christian doctrine of the trinity, can you? FAILED.

Everything that Jesus taught, came directly from the Father,

Joh 5:19 WEB Jesus therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.

Joh 12:49-50 WEB 49 For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me gave me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak.”

That would be equally true of all the OT prophets. FAILED.

And everything that Jesus has given us, The Holy Spirit will teach us and remind us.

Joh 16:13-15 WEB 13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said that he takes of mine and will declare it to you.

Still not the doctrine of the trinity, though. FAILED.

so, when the term,
Trinity
Is discussed amongst Jesus followers, we're talking about something quite simple, yet infinitely beyond the comprehension of the human race.

So utterly unlike your apple tree analogy. Thanks for making that clear.

And since you're consistently, and repeatedly rejecting the gospel of Jesus, I have to say...

The gospel that fails to mention the trinity, that one, right?

what makes you think you can understand eternal things, when you can't understand natural things?

Ah, so it is an "emperor's new clothes" deal. You have to think you are clever enough to see it.

In reality, I can see he is naked.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

FAILED.........................FAILED...........................FAILED.........................FAILED........................FAILED........................FAILED...............................FAILED.......................FAILED.........................FAILED......................FAILED

The only thing Steve has failed at is kowtowing to your asinine demand that he provide you, an atheist, with a verse that mentions the Trinity by name. What you cannot deny is that the Bible teaches the reality of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now not even an edit atheist such as yourself would deny that the Father is taught to be God. And we know from John 1:1 and I John 1:1, read together, that the Son is the Word and the Word is God, meaning Jesus is God. And we know from the Holy Spirit being referred to as the Spirit of God, that He is God since we cannot detach one from his spirit. VOILA: "God in three Persons, Blessed Trinity!"

Incidentally, you seem as obsessed over this subject as you are over chattel slavery. WHY? What in the world is it to YOU? Why do you obsess over a doctrine of Christianity? I certainly don't obsess over doctrines of Hinduism. Why does Christianity haunt you? You need to. seriously as yourself that question.

 

[SteveB]

So let us see what you found in the Bible about the doctrine of the trinity, as opposed to the existence of three things.


So two things. Likely El and his consort Asherah, as it happens, because the passage dates back to Israel's polytheistic roots.

......... FAILED.


........ FAILED.

Sounds like you're describing your own biases and preconceptions.

I have no idea what your point here, but certainly no doctrine of the trinity here. FAILED.

So, because you don't actually know how to reason clearly, I failed? ????

How far did you say you went in school?

Right. And I am sure you do not believe all those examples of "pluralized unity is found everywhere in life" are similar in nature to the trinity, as per Christian doctrine.

The holy trinity is not just a group of three things analogous to a set of triplets.

........FAILED.


Are either of those analogous to the trinity, as per Christian doctrine?

No.

........ FAILED.


Ah, now we are getting somewhere. So, where in the NT does it make that clear?


At last, an actual Bible verse.

...........FAILED.


There are no such verses Steve.


You just said you would not "bother rehashing clearly described ideas" and then did exactly that!

And none of it helps you because nothing you say is is supported by verses in the Bible.


........ FAILED.


........ FAILED.


........ FAILED.


So utterly unlike your apple tree analogy. Thanks for making that clear.


The gospel that fails to mention the trinity, that one, right?


Ah, so it is an "emperor's new clothes" deal. You have to think you are clever enough to see it.

In reality, I can see he is naked.

I see you failing to learn.
Rather curious thing about bias and preconceptions.
You're so afraid of learning, that you failed at each opportunity.

No matter.
It is your eternity.

Thankfully, YHVH doesn't require your permission to be who he is.

You can explain it to him when you stand before him and give an account for your life.
Only because you refuse to engage him for yourself now.

 

[Whatsisface]

Sounds like you're describing your own biases and preconceptions.




So, because you don't actually know how to reason clearly, I failed? ????

How far did you say you went in school?

I see you failing to learn.
Rather curious thing about bias and preconceptions.
You're so afraid of learning, that you failed at each opportunity.

No matter.
It is your eternity.

Thankfully, YHVH doesn't require your permission to be who he is.

You can explain it to him when you stand before him and give an account for your life.
Only because you refuse to engage him for yourself now.

LOL, this is contentless. You haven't attempted to rebut the poster's points at all. It's all ad hominems.

It's baffling that you would post this, as if everyone can't see your utter failure.

 

[SteveB]

LOL, this is contentless.

looks like you're just whining.

You haven't attempted to rebut the poster's points at all. It's all ad hominems.

Contentlessness epitomized.

It's baffling that you would post this, as if everyone can't see your utter failure.

It's baffling that you would post this, as if you haven't utterly failed to say anything remotely approaching the realm of content.

Oh.... wait!
I get it.
You're just whining because you don't actually believe that Pixie is capable of handling it himself and needs you to bail him out of his utter failure to engage in reasoning on topics that he clearly doesn't understand.

 

[Whatsisface]

looks like you're just whining.

Contentlessness epitomized.


It's baffling that you would post this, as if you haven't utterly failed to say anything remotely approaching the realm of content.

Oh.... wait!
I get it.
You're just whining because you don't actually believe that Pixie is capable of handling it himself and needs you to bail him out of his utter failure to engage in reasoning on topics that he clearly doesn't understand.

You're not very good at this reasonable discussion thing are you.

 

[SteveB]

You're not very good at this reasonable discussion thing are you.

I'm not the one having a problem explaining biblical concepts, and narratives.

Especially as I explained the trinity as a biblical Christianity matter, that is only capable of being understood by spiritual means.

So, I'm thinking that what both Paul and Jesus said is accurately stated.

1- if you don't understand earthly things that are explained, how could you understand heavenly things?

2- those things which are spiritual, cannot be clearly understood by the natural man. They are only understood by those who are spiritually regenerated by the Spirit of God, who dwells in those who are made alive through faith in Jesus.

I provided several natural examples.
They were rejected by a human being who has repeatedly stated that they will never follow Jesus.

Their unwillingness to engage in learning the truth is on them, not me, or others who take the time to explain it to them in simple, coherent terms.

So... I'm not the one having a problem with reasonable discussion.

 

[Whatsisface]

I'm not the one having a problem explaining biblical concepts, and narratives.

No, you're the one having trouble responding in a reasonable manner to points made.

 

[SteveB]

No, you're the one having trouble responding in a reasonable manner to points made.

The points made are based on faulty premise, due to the ongoing, repeated refusal to learn.

If this was only the first of a handful of bad set of connections, you'd be right.

But it's not.

It's well over a decade of repeated, ongoing, deliberately chosen, focused rejection of Biblical Christianity, while justifying their rejection using false ideas, false statements, and refusal to acknowledge that their ideas are false.

So....
No!

This is one of those reasons why I bring the point to bear...

It's your eternity. If you don't care, you will after it's too late to do anything about it.

At some point, you will be responsible for your choices.

As Jesus said,

Mat 12:35-37 WEB 35 The good man out of his good treasure brings out good things, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings out evil things. 36 I tell you that every idle word that men speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

you, and Pixie both, along with several other people here keep bringing out the evil things.

you refuse to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus. Because of this, you will one day be condemned by your own words.

not those of others, but your very own words.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Over the past several years, it's been a common practice for certain atheists to claim that there are a majority of scholars who claim that the Bible isn't actually a reliable document.

"Scholars" (Biblical or otherwise), just parrot what their Schools/Seminaries taught 'em. A "Scholar/Expert" after all, is anybody who has an opinion, and is more than 50 miles from home.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

That's probably because biblical scholarship for the purpose of becoming "scholarly" is an impediment to belief.

wise in their own eyes

We must enter the Kingdom as a child, not as a scholar. Some rural uneducated toothless backwoods Kentucky 85 year old woman with her hair done up in a pentecostal bun, sitting quietly in a church pew is likely to have a closer acquaintance with our Lord than a "Bible Scholar" having done his PHD dissertation on comparisons of speculative datings of ancient biblical manuscripts.

20 scholars with a PhD in theology can't refute the testimony of a teenager/new saint in her church.

 

[Whatsisface]

"Scholars" (Biblical or otherwise), just parrot what their Schools/Seminaries taught 'em. A "Scholar/Expert" after all, is anybody who has an opinion, and is more than 50 miles from home.

This is somewhat ill thought out. On the one hand you claim scholars just parrot what they're taught, and on the other say they have opinions which by definition are their own. It can't be both.

 

[The Pixie]

Sounds like you're describing your own biases and preconceptions.

And yet you cannot produce anything in the Bible that explains the doctrine of the trinity.

Hmm, almost as though my biases and preconceptions are right. And yours are wrong.

So, because you don't actually know how to reason clearly, I failed? ????

Well the fact that you are unwilling to explain would seem to suggest you recognise the failing in the reasoning as well as I do.

How far did you say you went in school?

I did not say, but further than you. I know positrons do not bounce off electrons....

I see you failing to learn.

I see you failing to support your claims. If you did, I might learn, but if there is nothing to learn...

Nothing in this post even tries to support your claim. It is like you know you have lost.

Rather curious thing about bias and preconceptions.
You're so afraid of learning, that you failed at each opportunity.

Sounds like projection to me.

Where are your verses that explain the doctrine of the trinity? There are none. You seem to now realise that. Are you capable of learning? Or do your bias and preconceptions make you afraid to do so?

No matter.
It is your eternity.

Whenever you lose an argument, rather than admit it, you fall back to veiled threats about eternity in hell. It would be so refreshing if one day you could just admit you are wrong.

Thankfully, YHVH doesn't require your permission to be who he is.

Again, nothing to do with Bible verses supporting the trinity. Just trying to derail the discussion to hide your embarrassment as losing. Kind of pathetic really.

 

[SteveB]

And yet you cannot produce anything in the Bible that explains the doctrine of the trinity.

Actually I did.
It appears pretty clear that you're not actually interested in learning and thinking on biblical terms.
It's true that the word trinity doesn't exist in the Bible.
Quite frankly, I've never once ever heard anyone say that it did, and I've been reading and studying the Bible for 46 years now.
So, that you're playing games with this demonstrates that you're not actually interested in understanding.

Hmm, almost as though my biases and preconceptions are right. And yours are wrong.

To those who are ignorant and perishing, I'd agree.

Well the fact that you are unwilling to explain would seem to suggest you recognise the failing in the reasoning as well as I do.

You had the Don Stewart article that details the Triune nature of YHVH. Apparently you've decided to reject it.
This tells me a few things.
Perhaps you simply didn't bother reading it.
Looking at the Desiring God, Gospel Coalition sites, I find myself wondering if you ever bothered actually reading them.

There's nothing in them that would contradict the biblical description of what and who YHVH is.

here's another article that is far more detailed in breaking down who YHVH is.

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr.

Robert Bowman, Jr. :: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity

www.blueletterbible.org

I did not say, but further than you. I know positrons do not bounce off electrons....

ah. And we're back to this, because you're clearly too frightened to learn.
well, you go ahead.
you are after all, clearly committing yourself to your own destruction.

I see you failing to support your claims. If you did, I might learn, but if there is nothing to learn...

I see you dedicating yourself to your destruction. I can only guess that you actually want to spend your eternity in the lake of fire, even though it's repeatedly described to you.

Nothing in this post even tries to support your claim. It is like you know you have lost.

well, considering that nothing you've previously provided shows that truth actually matters to you, I'm thinking that the only thing you want is to win arguments, so you can boast about spending your eternity in misery, agony, anguish and torment.

so, you go right ahead.

Sounds like projection to me.

of course it does.
it's all you have to justify yourself.
it's actually quite sad.
Ever notice that even though the gospel of Jesus has been repeatedly explained to you that it is not a philosophical construct, you continue to treat it as such?
Ever notice that in spite of the fact that the gospel of Jesus has been repeatedly explained to be a matter of restoration, reconciliation of the broken relationship between you and YHVH, you only want it to be a philosophical construct, so you can disregard and dismiss it?

So... you want it to be a projection..... you go right ahead. You enjoy your self-destructive dedication to your own misery, agony, anguish and torment.

Where are your verses that explain the doctrine of the trinity?

you provided them in post # 74.

Post in thread 'Majority of scholars? Who, and where?' https://forums.carm.org/threads/majority-of-scholars-who-and-where.14828/post-1174266

this one gives even greater detail, in outline format.

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr.

Robert Bowman, Jr. :: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity

www.blueletterbible.org

So, if you're looking for a single verse that states- this is the biblical description of the Trinity.... nobody ever said there was one.

the Triune nature of YHVH is described throughout the entire Bible.
This of course means that you actually have to read, learn and understand.

apart from being a family member of the family of YHVH, you're in for a humongous struggle.

There are none. You seem to now realise that. Are you capable of learning? Or do your bias and preconceptions make you afraid to do so?

I'm not the one who believes that he's achieved full knowledge of God and somehow disproven Him.

Whenever you lose an argument, rather than admit it, you fall back to veiled threats about eternity in hell. It would be so refreshing if one day you could just admit you are wrong.

no threat about it.
It's a simple matter of fact.

It's like my warning you that you're driving into a wall at 100 mph, and unless you stop, and turn away, it's going to destroy you.

If you actually view that as threatening you, then you're not actually as bright as you portray yourself.
As stupid as you believe me to be, I at least recognize that.

Again, nothing to do with Bible verses supporting the trinity. Just trying to derail the discussion to hide your embarrassment as losing. Kind of pathetic really.

I do indeed believe that your entire belief system is pathetic.
It's genuinely sad to see a human being so completely dedicated to their own destruction.

 

[SteveB]

I was raised in the Church, my father was a pastor, so I guess I just believed it, I thought everyone believed and never had any doubt that it was the truth.

Ah.
PK.
ok. This helps me better understand.

Later I drifted away from the church I was no longer in that bubble.

Since you were a PK, I'll assume you have read Hebrews, especially chapter 2.
drifting away is a common malady.
so much so that it received an entire book in the Bible describing the problem of drifting away.

This is incredibly important. A lack of diligence in maintaining our relationship with God and Jesus, not thinking its all that important, as Jesus describes in the parable of the sower, in Matthew 13, this life simply becomes more important than the next life.

I met people who didn't have the same beliefs.

It's a curious thing...
i met all kinds of people who had all kinds of beliefs, before I met Jesus.

In my later teens I reconnected with my church and started going to bible study and investigating what I had believed trying to regain that feeling of certitude and as in 1 Peter 3:15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But the more I looked the more I found reasons to doubt.

Paul tells us in Romans 1:28, there are some people who simply don't want to retain the knowledge of God in their lives.

Jesus warned us of this too...

Joh 3:19-20 WEB 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed.

I.e., sin is a powerful delusion. It hardens hearts, dulls the mind, deceives, and deludes.


If that's what you actually want, it's your eternity.

There are 3 very fundamental and primal things that you absolutely need in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

A righteousness which exceeds mere outward morality. Matthew 5:18.

You must become like a little child. Matthew 18:3.

You must be born spiritually. John 3:3-5.

Without these, you cannot enter God's Kingdom.

Thankfully , God provides these things to us.

You have to decide for yourself what you want for yourself. Nobody else can make that choice for you.

Seeing PK's wander off isn't a big surprise. It's been happening for ages.

The best man in my wedding, we've been friends for 35 years now, he returned to Jesus before we met. He was a PK.

 

[The Pixie]

Actually I did.

No you did not. You presented verses that, if you really strain, could possibly be interpreted to support the doctrine.

The first verse you citeds was Genesis 1:1 ("It actually starts in Genesis 1:1").

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

Nothing about the trinity at all. And yet this was what you led with?

It appears pretty clear that you're not actually interested in learning and thinking on biblical terms.

No, Steve. It is clear you are utterly unable to support your claim that the nature of the trinity is explained in the Bible.

It's true that the word trinity doesn't exist in the Bible.

And yet you want to pretend that the Bible explains the nature of the trinity!

Quite frankly, I've never once ever heard anyone say that it did, and I've been reading and studying the Bible for 46 years now.
So, that you're playing games with this demonstrates that you're not actually interested in understanding.

You just admitted the Bible does does include the word "trinity". I am not the one playing games here.

Hmm, almost as though my biases and preconceptions are right. And yours are wrong.

To those who are ignorant and perishing, I'd agree.

You think the truth of a claim depends on who you are talking too?

No, Steve. You are wrong to Christians and atheists alike.

You had the Don Stewart article that details the Triune nature of YHVH. Apparently you've decided to reject it.

Because it does not say where in the Bible the nature of the trinity is explained.

This is not about what the doctrine of the trinity is. This is about whether the doctrine is made clear in the Bible. Whether the doctrine is Biblical, or was made up later.

This tells me a few things.
Perhaps you simply didn't bother reading it.
Looking at the Desiring God, Gospel Coalition sites, I find myself wondering if you ever bothered actually reading them.

I did. This is why I am confident saying that the nature of the trinity is not explained in the Bible.

Did you read them? Can you quote the bit where they show the nature of the trinity is explained in the Bible?

There's nothing in them that would contradict the biblical description of what and who YHVH is.

Sure.

And nothing in them that supports your claim that the nature of the trinity is explained in the Bible.

here's another article that is far more detailed in breaking down who YHVH is.

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr.

Robert Bowman, Jr. :: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity

www.blueletterbible.org

But all it does is pull together verses from random books.

The Jews believe there is only one God - and Jesus is not a part of that - so naturally there are verses saying there is one God throughout the OT.

On the other hand, Christians came to think of Jesus as God in some way, so naturally there are verses in the NT that support that view. And many of the earliest Christians did not believe that, and your article has to seriously twist the text to make it fit with their biases and preconceptions.

You have read the article, right? Tell me the scripture passage that best explains the nature of the trinity.

I am going to skip the self-righteous threats of hellfire as they are not relevant to the discussion.

Ever notice that even though the gospel of Jesus has been repeatedly explained to you that it is not a philosophical construct, you continue to treat it as such?

I am not sure what your point is here. What do you mean by "philosophical construct"? Are you saying that the gospels are not a guide to the fundamental nature of reality? That they are not a moral or ethical guide?

Ever notice that in spite of the fact that the gospel of Jesus has been repeatedly explained to be a matter of restoration, reconciliation of the broken relationship between you and YHVH, you only want it to be a philosophical construct, so you can disregard and dismiss it?

The issue is whether the gospels are true.

If they are, then you are right that they a matter of restoration, reconciliation of the broken relationship between us and YHVH. But if they are not true, then they are merely a historical curiousity.

So determining whether they are true would seem to be paramount.

You assume they are because you were conditioned to as a kid. That is fine - it works for you. I was not conditioned to think that, so I need evidence they are true. And if Christianity is asserting the trinity despite it being non-Biblical, that would indicate to me that the trinity was invented by man, which in turn would make me question the rest of Christianity, including the gospels.

So... you want it to be a projection..... you go right ahead. You enjoy your self-destructive dedication to your own misery, agony, anguish and torment.

Back to the threats of hellfire.

So, if you're looking for a single verse that states- this is the biblical description of the Trinity.... nobody ever said there was one.

But you did say "40 different authors, over the course of 1600 years. It's quite interesting that they have a single coherent message from YHVH." Why does that coherent message from YHVH not include the trinity, if Christianity is right about it?

And indeed you claim the nature of the trinity is describe throughout the Bible in your next sentence.

the Triune nature of YHVH is described throughout the entire Bible.

So quote the verses.

That you cannot, after several posts, shows you cannot.

This of course means that you actually have to read, learn and understand.

No, Steve. It means the nature of the trinity is not in the Bible.

I'm not the one who believes that he's achieved full knowledge of God and somehow disproven Him.

And nor am I. So what is your point?

It's like my warning you that you're driving into a wall at 100 mph, and unless you stop, and turn away, it's going to destroy you.

No, Steve.

It is like I am driving down the road and someone else in the car who is have a drug flashback, and sees a brick wall across the road. There is no brick wall, it is just a delusion, but he is utterly convinced it is there. I am trying to point out the stupidity of his claim - like why would someone build a wall across the road, why is it not in the news, how come other cars go straight through it - but he keeps insisting, and every time his argument fails, rather than admit it, he just keeps ranting about how I will die when I hit this imaginary wall.

Oh, and he loves and worships the guy who built the wall that he assures me will kill so many people.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

No, Steve. It means the nature of the trinity is not in the Bible.

WRONG! Only a fool would claim that the Bible does not teach that the FATHER is God. And we know that by combining John 1:1 and I John 1:1, that since Jesus is the Son AND the Word, and that "the Word is God," that therefore the the Bible teaches that the SON is God. And since we cannot detach the spirit of a person from the person, the Spirit of God, i.e. the HOLY SPIRIT is God.

Ergo: God in three Persons, blessed Trinity! The "nature of the Trinity" is indeed in the Bible. You stand corrected.

 

[SteveB]

No you did not. You presented verses that, if you really strain, could possibly be interpreted to support the doctrine.

The first verse you citeds was Genesis 1:1 ("It actually starts in Genesis 1:1").

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

Nothing about the trinity at all. And yet this was what you led with?

Sounds yet again that you lack the ability to comprehend what you have been given.
Elohim, in the Hebrew is Gods.
Deuteronomy 6:4 states there is echad God.

No, Steve. It is clear you are utterly unable to support your claim that the nature of the trinity is explained in the Bible.

I'm not the one who continues to trip over their bias, ignorance and preconceptions.

And yet you want to pretend that the Bible explains the nature of the trinity!

no pretending necessary.

You just admitted the Bible does does include the word "trinity". I am not the one playing games here.

I never said the word trinity is in there.
No Bible readers will. That you think it should be shows the magnitude of your biases and preconceptions.

You think the truth of a claim depends on who you are talking too?

nope. You however appear to.

No, Steve. You are wrong to Christians and atheists alike.

then you have exactly what you want.

Because it does not say where in the Bible the nature of the trinity is explained.

This is not about what the doctrine of the trinity is. This is about whether the doctrine is made clear in the Bible. Whether the doctrine is Biblical, or was made up later.

?

I did. This is why I am confident saying that the nature of the trinity is not explained in the Bible.

then you have really poor reading comprehension skills.
Because if that's nit actually the case, you have really bad reasoning skills.

Did you read them?

yep.

Can you quote the bit where they show the nature of the trinity is explained in the Bible?

How many of them do you want?

From the Desiring God article.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. The Bible speaks of the Father as God (Philippians 1:2), Jesus as God (Titus 2:13), and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts 5:3–4). Are these just three different ways of looking at God, or simply ways of referring to three different roles that God plays? The answer must be no, because the Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons.

From the Gospel Coalition article.
Second, where is the doctrine of the Trinity found in the Bible?

Although the word “Trinity” is famously absent from Scripture, the theology behind the word can be found in a surprising number of verses. For starters there are verses that speak of God’s oneness
(Deut. 6:4, Isa. 44:6, 1 Tim. 1:17). Then there are the myriad of passages which demonstrate that God is Father (e.g.,
John 6:27, Titus 1:4). Next, we have the scores of texts which prove the deity of Jesus Christ, the Son—passages like
John 1 (“the word was God”),
John 8:58 (“before Abraham was born, I am”),
Col. 2:9 (“in Christ all the fullness of Deity lives in bodily form”),
Heb. 1:3 (“The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact imprint of his being”),

Tit. 2:13 (“our great God and Savior Jesus Christ”)-not to mention the explicit worship Christ willingly received from his disciples

(Luke 24:52 John 20:28 ) and the charges of blasphemy leveled against him for making himself equal with God (Mark 2:7).

Then we have similar texts which assume the deity of the Holy Spirit, calling Him an “eternal Spirit” (Heb. 9:14) and using “God” interchangeably with the “Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 3:16 and 1 Cor. 6:19, Acts 5:3-4) without a second thought.
The shape of Trinitarian orthodoxy is finally rounded off by texts that hint at the plurality of persons in the Godhead (Gen. 1:1-3, 26, Psalm 2:7, Dan. 7), texts like 1 Cor. 8:6 which place Jesus Christ as Lord right in the middle of Jewish Shema, and dozens of texts that speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the same breath, equating the three in rank, while assuming distinction of personhood
(Matt. 28:19
Gal. 4:6;
1 Cor.12:4-6
1 Peter 1:1-2
2 Cor. 2:21-22
13:14; Eph. 1:13-14; 2:18, 20-22; 3:14-17; 4:4-6; 5:18-20; 6:10-18).

from the Blue Letter Bible article.



4. The Three Persons Are The One God (The Trinity)

The conclusion to the above facts is as follows: if only one God exists, and if there are three distinct persons who are all called God, then the three persons must be the one God. This is the doctrine of the Trinity

 

[Tiburon]

Ah.
PK.
ok. This helps me better understand.

You mean pigeon hole, don't you?

Since you were a PK, I'll assume you have read Hebrews, especially chapter 2.
drifting away is a common malady.
so much so that it received an entire book in the Bible describing the problem of drifting away.

This is incredibly important. A lack of diligence in maintaining our relationship with God and Jesus, not thinking its all that important, as Jesus describes in the parable of the sower, in Matthew 13, this life simply becomes more important than the next life.

I too thought of it as a malady. I no longer see it that way.
I did think my relationship with God and Jesus was important, that is why I sought to reverse my drifting away.

It's a curious thing...
i met all kinds of people who had all kinds of beliefs, before I met Jesus.

I don't find that a curious thing.

Paul tells us in Romans 1:28, there are some people who simply don't want to retain the knowledge of God in their lives.

Jesus warned us of this too...

Joh 3:19-20 WEB 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed.

I.e., sin is a powerful delusion. It hardens hearts, dulls the mind, deceives, and deludes.


If that's what you actually want, it's your eternity.

There are 3 very fundamental and primal things that you absolutely need in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

A righteousness which exceeds mere outward morality. Matthew 5:18.

You must become like a little child. Matthew 18:3.

You must be born spiritually. John 3:3-5.

Without these, you cannot enter God's Kingdom.

Thankfully , God provides these things to us.

You have to decide for yourself what you want for yourself. Nobody else can make that choice for you.

Seeing PK's wander off isn't a big surprise. It's been happening for ages.

The best man in my wedding, we've been friends for 35 years now, he returned to Jesus before we met. He was a PK.

I did want to retain the knowledge of God. But you can't make yourself believe.