Majority of scholars? Who, and where?

[The Pixie]

Sounds yet again that you lack the ability to comprehend what you have been given.
Elohim, in the Hebrew is Gods.
Deuteronomy 6:4 states there is echad God.

None of which explains the nature of the trinity.

This is where you are failing again and again. I am not saying there are not verses that could be understood as indicating the trinity. Sure there are. But there is no passage that explains it nature.

I strongly suspect you know that, hence you are desperately clutching at straws.

And, by the way, Elohim is the plural because the Hebrews were originally polytheists, not because the text is referring to the trinity.

I'm not the one who continues to trip over their bias, ignorance and preconceptions.

I think you are. I think you approach the Bible already convinced it explains the trinity, and so are trying to force every verse you can conform to that preconception.

no pretending necessary.

And yet the best you can find in the way of Biblical passages that explains the nature of the trinity is one that uses the plural for god!

I never said the word trinity is in there.
No Bible readers will. That you think it should be shows the magnitude of your biases and preconceptions.

So what are you claiming?

I challenged you to find a passage that explains the nature of the trinity. You freely admit the word itself is not there.

then you have really poor reading comprehension skills.
Because if that's nit actually the case, you have really bad reasoning skills.

And yet still you can find no passage that explains the nature of the trinity.

How many of them do you want?

From the Desiring God article.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. The Bible speaks of the Father as God (Philippians 1:2), Jesus as God (Titus 2:13), and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts 5:3–4). Are these just three different ways of looking at God, or simply ways of referring to three different roles that God plays? The answer must be no, because the Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons.

So which of those on its own explains the nature of the trinity? Can you pick one?

What I see here is disparate authors making disparate claims, and later Christians making the trinity up from verses that say nothing of the sort.

The Philippians verse is perfectly consistent with Judaism, as we would expect from Paul, a devout Jew.

The Titus verse (probably written well after Paul's death and not by Paul), could be understood to be talking about the glory of God, and also the glory of our human saviour Jesus, two distinct entities, only one of which is a god. Or it could be talking about Jesus as god, but a separate and distinct god to Yahweh. The fact that it could be understood in various ways proves that it certainly does not explain the nature of the trinity.

Acts uses Holy Spirit to indicate the manifestation of God on earth, and again is perfectly consistent with Judaism.

From the Gospel Coalition article.
Second, where is the doctrine of the Trinity found in the Bible?

Although the word “Trinity” is famously absent from Scripture, the theology behind the word can be found in a surprising number of verses. For starters there are verses that speak of God’s oneness
(Deut. 6:4, Isa. 44:6, 1 Tim. 1:17). Then there are the myriad of passages which demonstrate that God is Father (e.g.,
John 6:27, Titus 1:4). Next, we have the scores of texts which prove the deity of Jesus Christ, the Son—passages like
John 1 (“the word was God”),
John 8:58 (“before Abraham was born, I am”),
Col. 2:9 (“in Christ all the fullness of Deity lives in bodily form”),
Heb. 1:3 (“The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact imprint of his being”),

As I said, that God is the father is perfectly consistent with Judaism, so does not help at all.

Passages that state that Jesus is God are few and far between. Some they cite can all be understood to mean Jesus was chosen by God, and so divine (in a sense) because he has God's favour (the fullness of Deity lives in him). These text can be interpreted in different ways. If you approach them with the preconception that the trinity is there, sure, you will see the trinity. But it is very unlikely the author had any clue about the concept.

And certainly none of those passages explain the nature of the trinity.

(Luke 24:52 John 20:28 ) and the charges of blasphemy leveled against him for making himself equal with God (Mark 2:7).

This was because he forgave people for their sins. He was level with God in this one regard only.

Then we have similar texts which assume the deity of the Holy Spirit, calling Him an “eternal Spirit” (Heb. 9:14) and using “God” interchangeably with the “Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 3:16 and 1 Cor. 6:19, Acts 5:3-4) without a second thought.

How do they know this was done "without a second thought"? The answer, of course, is wishful thinking. They want to believe it, so they create a narrative in their heads that the authors wrote that "without a second thought" because it feels comforting to think so. There is no way we can know if the author wrote it "without a second thought", but like so much of Christianity, it is more reassuring to pretend it.

The Holy Spirit, the breath of God, was how God was understood to manifest on earth. The Holy Spirit was not understood to be separate in the way Jesus is; it was part of God in the same way your face is part of you. This is perfectly consistent with Judaism, and in no way explains the nature of the trinity.

The shape of Trinitarian orthodoxy is finally rounded off by texts that hint at t...

I am going to stop there. The article fully admits those passages merely hint at the plurality of God. Clearly they do not explain the nature of the trinity.

4. The Three Persons Are The One God (The Trinity)

The conclusion to the above facts is as follows: if only one God exists, and if there are three distinct persons who are all called God, then the three persons must be the one God. This is the doctrine of the Trinity

But look at what the article had to do. It had to draw on numerous verses scattered across several books of the Bible to arrive at this conclusion.

What it could not do is point to a single passage, and say, look this explain the nature of the trinity. Because there is no such passage. It is something Christians made up later.

 

[The Pixie]

As an addendum to me comment to @SteveB, more about Jesus as the "Son".

Jesus is often called the Son of Man.

Mark 2:10 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” —He *said to the paralyzed man,​

​

Mark 10:33 saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles.​

​

Acts 7:56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”​

Why would they do that if they believed he was actually the Son of God?

Also, all the kings of the Jews were considered to be the sons of God.

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, ​

​

Psalm 2:7 I will tell of the decree:​

The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;​

today I have begotten you.​

Jesus was thought to be the messiah, the new king of the Jews. His early followers understood him to be the adopted son of God, just the same as the earlier kings. Considering Jesus to be the Son of God is perfectly consistent with the Jewish religion, once you se Jesus as the messiah. Paul did not give up his Jewish faith; he just came to believe Jesus was the long-awaited messiah - and hence the adopted son of God.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

he just came to believe Jesus was the long-awaited messiah - and hence the adopted son of God.

Anyone even half way familiar with Paul's epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians knows that Paul considered Jesus to be the Creator of all that is, was or ever will be. Paul knew His deity preceded His Incarnation. Paul did not believe that God adopted Jesus of Nazareth as His son. Like John he knew that Christ was the preeminent Son.

 

[SteveB]

Sure.

And nothing in them that supports your claim that the nature of the trinity is explained in the Bible.

Sounds like you're stuck in your biases and preconceptions.
Ignoring the fact that this is a family matter, and because you're choosing to remain outside of the family, you're excluding yourself from being able to understand. Which was exactly what I stated previously.

But all it does is pull together verses from random books.

?
Demonstrating that you have completely missed what I previously stated...
66 books, over 40 different authors across the span of 1600 years....
i suppose i should add that it included 3 different continents.
noryh Africa, Western Asia and the south Eastern European countries.

to you, The books are random. But they are a coherent message to everyone who comes to Jesus.

The Jews believe there is only one God - and Jesus is not a part of that - so naturally there are verses saying there is one God throughout the OT.

So?
does their lack of awareness mean that Jesus is not in fact YHVH the Son?
or does it in fact expose their lack of knowledge, understanding and awareness?

Jesus does in fact explain it to them, and they try killing him for blasphemy.


Mat 26:63-66 WEB
63 But Jesus stayed silent. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.” 65 Then the high priest tore his clothing, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy. 66 What do you think?” They answered, “He is worthy of death!”


Luk 22:67-71 WEB
67 “If you are the Christ, tell us.” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you won’t believe, 68 and if I ask, you will in no way answer me or let me go. 69 From now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” 70 They all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” He said to them, “You say it, because I am.” 71 They said, “Why do we need any more witness? For we ourselves have heard from his own mouth!”


Joh 10:24-42 WEB
24 The Jews therefore came around him and said to him, “How long will you hold us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you don’t believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name, these testify about me. 26 But you don’t believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father who has given them to me is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” 31 Therefore the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’ 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken), 36 do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’ 37 If I don’t do the works of my Father, don’t believe me. 38 But if I do them, though you don’t believe me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 They sought again to seize him, and he went out of their hand. 40 He went away again beyond the Jordan into the place where John was baptizing at first, and he stayed there. 41 Many came to him. They said, “John indeed did no sign, but everything that John said about this man is true.” 42 Many believed in him there.

On the other hand, Christians came to think of Jesus as God in some way, so naturally there are verses in the NT that support that view. And many of the earliest Christians did not believe that, and your article has to seriously twist the text to make it fit with their biases and preconceptions.

So, Jewish people who came to believe in Jesus, the Messiah of Israel are biased, and full of preconceptions....

And Paul, who was schooled in the Jewish laws, history and culture, who upon receiving the witness of Jesus, became a follower of Jesus, is full of preconceptions and bias...

What was their preconception?
That YHVH himself says that he will give us a savior, be our savior, and pay for our sin, dying, and then rising from the dead, to make us right with Him?

You have read the article, right? Tell me the scripture passage that best explains the nature of the trinity.

Read the articles.
This time, dump the bias and preconceptions that make you believe that they're random passages, from random books.

It's a single coherent message from YHVH to the human race.

I am going to skip the self-righteous threats of hellfire as they are not relevant to the discussion.

Well, you're the one who needs to believe that the truth is a threat.

Sounds like you should turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ.

I am not sure what your point is here.

Of course not. This is because you're desperately clinging to your sin and death, being enslaved by your sin.

What do you mean by "philosophical construct"?

It's quite simple.
Perhaps you should learn to use a dictionary.

Construct (philosophy) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Are you saying that the gospels are not a guide to the fundamental nature of reality? That they are not a moral or ethical guide?

That's the example of a philosophical construct, based on your own belief.

The gospel of Jesus is the message by which he is officially offering the human race the opportunity to be reconciled with YHVH and upon death, spending your eternity in a paradise designed explicitly with you in mind.

The issue is whether the gospels are true.

Yep.
i and hundreds of millions, if not billions of people have found that they are true.

The problem is that actually knowing, by firsthand experience, that the gospel is true, requires obedience to the gospel of Jesus.

in this, YHVH himself demonstrates himself true, and exactly what he says in the Bible.

If they are, then you are right that they a matter of restoration, reconciliation of the broken relationship between us and YHVH. But if they are not true, then they are merely a historical curiousity.

each person must choose to learn for themselves.
The gospel of Jesus is about reconciliation with YHVH.

So determining whether they are true would seem to be paramount.

Indeed.
You can read plenty of materials which corroborate the veracity of the Gospel, and indeed the Bible.
But the only way to actually know.... is by obedience to the gospel of Jesus.
Through obedience to the gospel, the level of "proof" exceeds anything that reading thousands of books would achieve.

Jesus said in rather simple terms that he and His Father would come and make their home with you.

Quite frankly I can't think of a more effective and accurate way to get firsthand knowledge and awareness of the reality of YHVH.

Everything that is described in the NT regarding the knowledge of God is by firsthand experience.

So.... you can indeed continue with the path you're on.
I've found out the hard way that YHVH's Word is truth, and have been taking the past 46 years learning to follow Jesus.

First, because he promises to make sure we get to heaven, and eternity on the best side.

second, he's never lied to me or anyone I've met/known.

You assume they are because you were conditioned to as a kid.

Nope. Yet another philosophical construct.
i left the church around 11-12 years of age.
after meandering around for a few years i began to meet people of different religious beliefs.
some beliefs were pretty clearly goofball beliefs. Islam gave me the heeby-jeebies.
I had a buddy who was a Buddhist. We'd sit around getting high, and talk about Buddhism.
While I wasn't entirely aware of it, most of the beliefs of the day in my area were reincarnation ideas.
if you happen to be good enough, you can achieve nirvana. I actually bought into it for a while.

That is fine - it works for you.

if it did, it never worked for me. I quit church at 11-12 years of age. That was 51-52 years ago.

 

[SteveB]

I was not conditioned to think that, so I need evidence they are true.

then do what Jesus says.
sitting around reading dozens, indeed thousands of books is only going to give you the perspectives of the authors.
while many are good, some are not helpful. They just give you permission to believe what you already want to believe. I.e., you're already conditioned to think that atheism is right.

And if Christianity is asserting the trinity despite it being non-Biblical, that would indicate to me that the trinity was invented by man, which in turn would make me question the rest of Christianity, including the gospels.

and if atheism tells you to believe that there is no God, and when you die, you'll just be worm food, and your life means nothing, then you will learn the hard way that you screwed yourself.

Back to the threats of hellfire.

The facts of hell, and the lake of fire have existed for millennia.
I'm simply letting you know the end result of your dedication to your deliberate and willful ignorance.

But you did say "40 different authors, over the course of 1600 years. It's quite interesting that they have a single coherent message from YHVH." Why does that coherent message from YHVH not include the trinity, if Christianity is right about it?

More of your to to your deliberate and willful ignorance.
It's all there. You can indeed continue with your ignorance.
Or, you can take the time to engage YHVH on his terms.

And indeed you claim the nature of the trinity is describe throughout the Bible in your next sentence.

That's what the Bible says.

So quote the verses.

Already have.
Perhaps the problem is that you're not a family member, and this is a family matter. Until you become a family member, you're not going to understand it.
It is written
in psalm 25:14 that those who fear God, he gives his friendship.
In psalm 147:11, those who fear God and hope in his mercy, he delights in.
and in psalm 111:10, those who fear God and do his will have good understanding.
seems like if you're going to argue about family issues, you'd first do well to become a family member.
YHVH adopts those who place their trust in Jesus.

That you cannot, after several posts, shows you cannot.

it's been done repeatedly.
I am however reminded that there are people who are constantly learning but never able to understand the truth.
You may very well be among those.
And if that is indeed the case then this is on you.

No, Steve. It means the nature of the trinity is not in the Bible.

actually it means that your beliefs about the trinity aren't in the Bible.
The trinity is scattered throughout the Bible and has been for 3500 years.

And nor am I. So what is your point?

It's pretty simply stated.
What part aren't you understanding?

No, Steve.

It is like I am driving down the road and someone else in the car who is have a drug flashback, and sees a brick wall across the road. There is no brick wall, it is just a delusion, but he is utterly convinced it is there. I am trying to point out the stupidity of his claim - like why would someone build a wall across the road, why is it not in the news, how come other cars go straight through it - but he keeps insisting, and every time his argument fails, rather than admit it, he just keeps ranting about how I will die when I hit this imaginary wall.

Oh, and he loves and worships the guy who built the wall that he assures me will kill so many people.

Sounds like you're stuck with your sin and have no interest being freed from your enslavement.

 

[The Pixie]

Sounds like you're stuck in your biases and preconceptions.

You keep saying that. And then you confirm that those supposed biases and preconceptions are right by your on-going failure to find a single Bible passage that explains the nature of the trinity.

Ignoring the fact that this is a family matter, and because you're choosing to remain outside of the family, you're excluding yourself from being able to understand. Which was exactly what I stated previously.

Sure you stated that. Claiming your opponent does not understand is easy, whether you are wrong or right.

But the fact remains; you have failed to find a single Bible passage that explains the nature of the trinity.

Demonstrating that you have completely missed what I previously stated...
66 books, over 40 different authors across the span of 1600 years....
i suppose i should add that it included 3 different continents.
noryh Africa, Western Asia and the south Eastern European countries.

to you, The books are random. But they are a coherent message to everyone who comes to Jesus.

But they are not coherent. That was the original point.

You are "supporting" your position by quote-mining different authors with different beliefs. The Genesis 1:1 verse is because the author believed El was head of a pantheon that included Yahweh! But you ignore that and convince yourself it supports the trinity.

So?
does their lack of awareness mean that Jesus is not in fact YHVH the Son?
or does it in fact expose their lack of knowledge, understanding and awareness?

It means the passage they wrote does not explain the nature of the trinity.

Hence, your failure to find a single Bible passage that explains the nature of the trinity.

Jesus does in fact explain it to them, and they try killing him for blasphemy.

Mat 26:63-66 WEB
63 But Jesus stayed silent. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.” 65 Then the high priest tore his clothing, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy. 66 What do you think?” They answered, “He is worthy of death!”

This is hilarious!

You are actually quoting a verse that says Jesus said nothing to support your claim that Jesus explain it.

It is not actually my birthday, but I appreciate the gesture, Steve.

Luk 22:67-71 WEB
67 “If you are the Christ, tell us.” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you won’t believe, 68 and if I ask, you will in no way answer me or let me go. 69 From now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” 70 They all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” He said to them, “You say it, because I am.” 71 They said, “Why do we need any more witness? For we ourselves have heard from his own mouth!”

The messiah - the king of the Jews - was the son of God. This was true of all the Jewish kings. Does not make them all gods.

Joh 10:24-42 WEB
24 The Jews therefore came around him and said to him, “How long will you hold us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you don’t believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name, these testify about me. 26 But you don’t believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father who has given them to me is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” 31 Therefore the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’ 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken), 36 do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’ 37 If I don’t do the works of my Father, don’t believe me. 38 But if I do them, though you don’t believe me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 They sought again to seize him, and he went out of their hand. 40 He went away again beyond the Jordan into the place where John was baptizing at first, and he stayed there. 41 Many came to him. They said, “John indeed did no sign, but everything that John said about this man is true.” 42 Many believed in him there.

Written some time later, by a gentile in my opinion, so quite a different view of Jesus, but still Jesus is very much subordinate to God. This is a long way from the trinity, even if it is a stepping stone towards that.

For one thing there is no mention of the Holy Spirit. A passage that explains the nature of the trinity has at least to mention all three components!

So, Jewish people who came to believe in Jesus, the Messiah of Israel are biased, and full of preconceptions....

I was talking about the later Christians, the gentiles in the second and third century who developed the idea of the trinity, and then had to twist the Bible to fit that.

And Paul, who was schooled in the Jewish laws, history and culture, who upon receiving the witness of Jesus, became a follower of Jesus, is full of preconceptions and bias...

I very much doubt Paul believed in the trinity - or had even heard of it.

I am sure he had his own biases and preconceptions - it is bizarre you think being "schooled in the Jewish laws, history and culture" would make him immune to that.

What was their preconception?
That YHVH himself says that he will give us a savior, be our savior, and pay for our sin, dying, and then rising from the dead, to make us right with Him?

Paul and the other earliest Christians, due to their own biases and preconceptions, believed that, and believed Jesus was that saviour.

But they did not believe Jesus was part of the trinity - that was invented later.

Read the articles.
This time, dump the bias and preconceptions that make you believe that they're random passages, from random books.

I have read them, and I have confirmed that no single passage explains the nature of the trinity.

Have you read them? If so, you know that is true.

It's a single coherent message from YHVH to the human race.

And yet it omits explaining the nature of the trinity, a fundamental part of Christianity!

The gospel of Jesus is the message by which he is officially offering the human race the opportunity to be reconciled with YHVH and upon death, spending your eternity in a paradise designed explicitly with you in mind.

Or it is the mistaken and delusional ranting of religious cultists.

How do we tell which? You were conditioned as a small child to think it is a message from God, so it is decided for you. You KNOW the trinity is true, so you see it in every verse. That does not apply to me. I am still looking for that passage that explains the nature of the trinity.

So far... nothing.

Yep.
i and hundreds of millions, if not billions of people have found that they are true.

No, billion think it is true.

But more do not think it is true.

The problem is that actually knowing, by firsthand experience, that the gospel is true, requires obedience to the gospel of Jesus.

The problem is that to know the gospel is true, you have to first be sure the gospel is true.

You got that drummed into you as a kid. I did not.

 

[SteveB]

You mean pigeon hole, don't you?

Only if context has no meaning to you.
Context means a lot in the world I live on.
I wouldn't talk Jehovahs witness to a Mormon or a Muslim, or even a Buddhist.
So, you being a PK has great context. The same as a JW, a Mormon, a Muslim, etc....
That you find it bothersome, I find curious. You sound terrified that you should be understood.

I too thought of it as a malady. I no longer see it that way.
I did think my relationship with God and Jesus was important, that is why I sought to reverse my drifting away.

Reversing our drift is simply a matter of daily engagement with God, the Bible, fellowship with others who are engaging him on his terms.

Peter tells us in the first chapter of his 2nd letter to give all diligence to add to our faith, virtue; to your virtue, knowledge; to your knowledge, self-control; to your self-control, perseverance; to your perseverance, brotherly kindness; to your brotherly kindness, love. For if these things are in you and abound, they shall make you neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of God and Jesus.

As diligence has never really been a quality I've possessed, I just keep going, each day, a bit at a time.
And I've recently been coming to realize that diligence is as much just taking one step after another, and not quitting, as it can be running full throttle.
It's written in Proverbs,

Pro 24:16 WEB for a righteous man falls seven times and rises up again, but the wicked are overthrown by calamity.

So, getting up when you fall is as much to diligence as continuing on.

Something else I've come to understand lately, God is the God of encouragement, hope and perseverance.

Rom 15:4-6 WEB 4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through perseverance and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now the God of perseverance and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, 6 that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I was astonished to come to the realization that he's actually got a vested interest in making sure that we make it all the way to heaven upon our death.
He's not going to berate, demean, mock or shame us when we fall and stumble.
He'll pick us back up, dust us off and encourage us to keep going.

I don't find that a curious thing.

Perhaps. I wasn't saying you had to.
I do.
especially since several atheists have commented in what appears as a derogatory manner that i just believed what i was told, and never actually learned truth.

I did want to retain the knowledge of God. But you can't make yourself believe.

Then you don't actually know what biblical belief is.

It's not an emotion.
At most, emotion results from our thinking.

If we focus our thinking on certain things, we're going to have an emotional response. But emotion is a result of, not the cause or source of....

Biblical belief is God making a promise to us, and then our believing that promise.

Abraham was perhaps the first clearly stated example of a man who believed God's word to him.
Gen 15:1-7 WEB 1 After these things Yahweh’s word came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Don’t be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.” 2 Abram said, “Lord Yahweh, what will you give me, since I go childless, and he who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Abram said, “Behold, you have given no children to me: and, behold, one born in my house is my heir.” 4 Behold, Yahweh’s word came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir, but he who will come out of your own body will be your heir.” 5 Yahweh brought him outside, and said, “Look now toward the sky, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” He said to Abram, “So your offspring will be.” 6 He believed in Yahweh, who credited it to him for righteousness. 7 He said to Abram, “I am Yahweh who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give you this land to inherit it.”

The entire Bible is about the promise of God to restore everyone who comes to Jesus.

He tells us as much in several places throughout the Bible.

Heb 7:25 WEB Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them.

2Co 5:17-21 WEB 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new. 18 But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

You can be reconciled to Jesus.

 

[SteveB]

None of which explains the nature of the trinity.

Why would it?
You're clearly refusing to read, learn, and as a result, unable to understand.
Exactly what Paul warned Timothy about in his letter.

2Ti 3:7 WEB always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This is a you thing. Nobody can force you to learn and understand.
Since you've dedicated yourself to deliberate and willful ignorance, I'd say you have a far more serious problem.

This is where you are failing again and again.
I am not saying there are not verses that could be understood as indicating the trinity. Sure there are. But there is no passage that explains it nature.

then you should pay closer attention.
The only thing you're showing here is that you have dedicated yourself to deliberate and willful ignorance, choosing your biases and preconceptions over the truth.

I strongly suspect you know that, hence you are desperately clutching at straws.

Yet, you continue to dedicate yourself to your deliberate and willful destruction.
The straws here are that.

And, by the way, Elohim is the plural because the Hebrews were originally polytheists, not because the text is referring to the trinity.

I never said anything about that passage being the sole source.
I said that the concept of the trinity started at Genesis 1:1.
and Moses was not a polytheist.

I think you are. I think you approach the Bible already convinced it explains the trinity, and so are trying to force every verse you can conform to that preconception.

of course you think...
those thoughts you're thinking are what's known as preconceptions and bias.
that speaks more to your deliberate and willful ignorance than what I actually do.

Where I come from, we actually read for the purpose of learning, understanding and awareness. Thankfully, we can engage YHVH in prayer, and as the Bible teaches, YHVH teaches us.

I encourage you to do likewise. It's quite an awesome experience.

And yet the best you can find in the way of Biblical passages that explains the nature of the trinity is one that uses the plural for god!

Why wouldn't I present the Bible as the basis for a biblical theme?

So what are you claiming?

Try reading what I stated.

I challenged you to find a passage that explains the nature of the trinity. You freely admit the word itself is not there.

And?
Your name isn't there either!
Does this mean that you don't actually exist?
At least my name is in the Bible.
So, you're going to have to show more intelligence than you are.

And yet still you can find no passage that explains the nature of the trinity.

Actually, you presented 3 articles, I presented other articles, and they do a rather excellent job of gathering the information that details the nature of the Triune God, YHVH.

So which of those on its own explains the nature of the trinity? Can you pick one?

why would you continue to choose to remain dedicated to your deliberate and willful ignorance when clarity of truth is already given to you?
This is showing that you're playing games with your eternity, and the only thing you're achieving is demonstrating that you are completely dedicated to your deliberate and willful ignorance.
It's quite sad to observe.

What I see here is disparate authors making disparate claims, and later Christians making the trinity up from verses that say nothing of the sort.

What you see...
Sounds like a philosophical construct.
Just as long as you don't see what actually is, that's all you want.
what you see... this is what's known as bias and preconception.

The Philippians verse is perfectly consistent with Judaism, as we would expect from Paul, a devout Jew.

Ah, so as long as you can cherry pick verses to confirm your biases and preconceptions, you'll take it.
It's a good thing that Paul's devotion is to Jesus the Messiah. Something he repeatedly described in the letter to the Philippians.

Phi 1:2 WEB Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Titus verse (probably written well after Paul's death and not by Paul), could be understood to be talking about the glory of God, and also the glory of our human saviour Jesus, two distinct entities, only one of which is a god. Or it could be talking about Jesus as god, but a separate and distinct god to Yahweh. The fact that it could be understood in various ways proves that it certainly does not explain the nature of the trinity.

Probably, could be.....

Wow. Talking about preconceptions and biases.
OK.
Let's walk this dog.

the Pixie probably exists. We have no reason to believe something extraordinary like this. After all, pixies are fairies and fantasy creatures from the minds of twilight fans.
so, it could be understood that the creature I'm posting back and forth with is actually a demon, dedicated to destroying as many humans as possible, so they can torment their victims in hell following their death.

Yep! Could be!
it likely is the case.
could be...

or, the Pixie is nothing but a poorly programmed AI, stuck in its early stages, playing mind games to learn to generate fallacious ideas, and philosophical constructs.

yep.... could be. Far more probable than a human being who actually wants to spend their eternity in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur forever.

 

[SteveB]

Acts uses Holy Spirit to indicate the manifestation of God on earth, and again is perfectly consistent with Judaism.

Never said it wasn't.
Even YHVH makes a distinction between God, and His Spirit throughout the OT. Starting in Genesis 1:2.
Something that you apparently never understood...

Biblical Christianity is based entirely on biblical Judaism.

As Jesus said in Luke 24
Luk 24:13-53 WEB 13 Behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was sixty stadia from Jerusalem. 14 They talked with each other about all of these things which had happened. 15 While they talked and questioned together, Jesus himself came near, and went with them. 16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17 He said to them, “What are you talking about as you walk, and are sad?” 18 One of them, named Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only stranger in Jerusalem who doesn’t know the things which have happened there in these days?” 19 He said to them, “What things?” They said to him, “The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people; 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21 But we were hoping that it was he who would redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22 Also, certain women of our company amazed us, having arrived early at the tomb; 23 and when they didn’t find his body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of us went to the tomb and found it just like the women had said, but they didn’t see him.” 25 He said to them, “Foolish people, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Didn’t the Christ have to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?” 27 Beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he explained to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. 28 They came near to the village where they were going, and he acted like he would go further. 29 They urged him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is almost evening, and the day is almost over.” He went in to stay with them. 30 When he had sat down at the table with them, he took the bread and gave thanks. Breaking it, he gave it to them. 31 Their eyes were opened and they recognized him; then he vanished out of their sight. 32 They said to one another, “Weren’t our hearts burning within us while he spoke to us along the way, and while he opened the Scriptures to us?” 33 They rose up that very hour, returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and those who were with them, 34 saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” 35 They related the things that happened along the way, and how he was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread. 36 As they said these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were terrified and filled with fear, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled? Why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. Touch me and see, for a spirit doesn’t have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.” 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 While they still didn’t believe for joy, and wondered, he said to them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 He took them, and ate in front of them. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you, that all things which are written in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms concerning me must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds, that they might understand the Scriptures. 46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send out the promise of my Father on you. But wait in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high.” 50 He led them out as far as Bethany, and he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he blessed them, he withdrew from them and was carried up into heaven. 52 They worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Everything Jesus taught is based in the law and prophets.

everything Paul, James, John, Peter, Jude, Matthew, Mark, and Luke taught in their writings are based on the law and prophets.

As I said, that God is the father is perfectly consistent with Judaism, so does not help at all.

it doesn't help you.
It only helps you when it agrees with your bias and preconceptions.
YHVH being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit helps we who are being saved from our sin and trespasses immediately and immensely!

Perhaps this is why you are choosing to perish, and remain outside the family of YHVH.
you don't want to actually know the truth.

Passages that state that Jesus is God are few and far between.

???‍
You're not very educated are you!
God being referred to as Father in the old testament is very rare, far and few between...
he's referred to as Father, Husband, farmer, Creator,...

Some they cite can all be understood to mean Jesus was chosen by God, and so divine (in a sense) because he has God's favour (the fullness of Deity lives in him). These text can be interpreted in different ways. If you approach them with the preconception that the trinity is there, sure, you will see the trinity. But it is very unlikely the author had any clue about the concept.

You're batting yourself into stupidity Pixie.
remember.... you are a fictional character in children's books.
the fact that the writer of the letters wrote what they did, demonstrates that they understood enough to write it.
they after all were family members of the family of God in Christ.
the same Holy Spirit who inhabits the followers of Jesus today, inhabited them when they wrote.

And certainly none of those passages explain the nature of the trinity.

actually, all those passages, together, develop the description of the nature of the Triune God.
As Jesus said in John 5, and is stated in psalm 40, and Hebrews 10...
Joh 5:39 WEB “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.

This was because he forgave people for their sins. He was level with God in this one regard only.

???‍
You clearly don't recognize biblical Judaism.
There's only one who can forgive sin....
His name is YHVH.

How do they know this was done "without a second thought"? The answer, of course, is wishful thinking.

Yet another philosophical construct that is based entirely on your biases and preconceptions.
you're quite impressive for someone who keeps claiming that other people shouldn't
engage in such biased activities.

They want to believe it, so they create a narrative in their heads that the authors wrote that "without a second thought" because it feels comforting to think so. There is no way we can know if the author wrote it "without a second thought", but like so much of Christianity, it is more reassuring to pretend it.

Considering that we observe you doing this constantly, I'm thinking that you are projecting your beliefs on others.

The Holy Spirit, the breath of God, was how God was understood to manifest on earth.

and?

The Holy Spirit was not understood to be separate in the way Jesus is; it was part of God in the same way your face is part of you.

Further demonstrating your biases and preconceptions.
The Holy Spirit is not an it. He is a person.
It's not possible to lie to, or grieve an it.
This is described in Acts 5 and Ephesians 4.

This is perfectly consistent with Judaism, and in no way explains the nature of the trinity.

For someone who keeps referencing Judaism, you sure do a great job of failing to grasp the basics of Biblical Judaism.
Biblical Christianity is based entirely on biblical Judaism.

 

[SteveB]

I am going to stop there. The article fully admits those passages merely hint at the plurality of God. Clearly they do not explain the nature of the trinity.

this is quite amusing.
YHVH's nature is described throughout the Bible, from Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21.

As YHVH is Triune, and his nature is described throughout the Bible, the nature of the Trinity is described throughout the Bible.

As stated in the letter to the Colossians:

Col 1:15-19 WEB 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, visible things and invisible things, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things are held together. 18 He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in him,


And in Hebrews 1
Heb 1:3 WEB His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, who, when he had by himself purified us of our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Jesus is the express image of the Father.
This is why Jesus told Philip in John 14,

Joh 14:8-12 WEB 8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, ‘Show us the Father?’ 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me; or else believe me for the very works’ sake. 12 Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to my Father.

And as Jesus said regarding the Holy Spirit in John 16,

Joh 16:13-15 WEB 13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take from what is mine and will declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are mine; therefore I said that he takes of mine and will declare it to you.

Whatever things the Father gave to Jesus, Jesus himself gives the Spirit to give to those who are family members of the family of YHVH in Christ.

But look at what the article had to do. It had to draw on numerous verses scattered across several books of the Bible to arrive at this conclusion.

And?
As it's written in psalm 40,
Psa 40:7-8 WEB 7 Then I said, “Behold, I have come. It is written about me in the book in the scroll. 8 I delight to do your will, my God. Yes, your law is within my heart.”

And Jesus said in John 5.

Joh 5:39 WEB “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.

The entire Bible

What it could not do is point to a single passage, and say, look this explain the nature of the trinity. Because there is no such passage. It is something Christians made up later.

There is no single passage.

It's a coherent whole message, throughout the entire Bible. All 31,102 verses.

 

[SteveB]

As an addendum to me comment to @SteveB, more about Jesus as the "Son".

Jesus is often called the Son of Man.

Mark 2:10 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” —He *said to the paralyzed man,​

​

Mark 10:33 saying, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles.​

​

Acts 7:56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”​

Why would they do that if they believed he was actually the Son of God?

Read Daniel 7:13-14

Dan 7:13-14 KJV 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The Son of Man is a clear reference back to this passage.

 

[SteveB]

Also, all the kings of the Jews were considered to be the sons of God.

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, ​

​

Psalm 2:7 I will tell of the decree:​

The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;​

today I have begotten you.​

Jesus was thought to be the messiah, the new king of the Jews. His early followers understood him to be the adopted son of God, just the same as the earlier kings. Considering Jesus to be the Son of God is perfectly consistent with the Jewish religion, once you se Jesus as the messiah. Paul did not give up his Jewish faith; he just came to believe Jesus was the long-awaited messiah - and hence the adopted son of God.

I never said anything about Paul giving up his Jewish faith.

He was pretty clear about this in his interactions with the high council in Acts, as well as Ephesians, and Colossians.

Acts 24:1-27 NKJV — Now after five days Ananias the high priest came down with the elders and a certain orator named Tertullus. These gave evidence to the governor against Paul. And when he was called upon, Tertullus began his accusation, saying: “Seeing that through you we enjoy great peace, and prosperity is being brought to this nation by your foresight, “we accept it always and in all places, most noble Felix, with all thankfulness. “Nevertheless, not to be tedious to you any further, I beg you to hear, by your courtesy, a few words from us. “For we have found this man a plague, a creator of dissension among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. “He even tried to profane the temple, and we seized him, and wanted to judge him according to our law. “But the commander Lysias came by and with great violence took him out of our hands, “commanding his accusers to come to you. By examining him yourself you may ascertain all these things of which we accuse him.” And the Jews also assented, maintaining that these things were so. Then Paul, after the governor had nodded to him to speak, answered: “Inasmuch as I know that you have been for many years a judge of this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself, “because you may ascertain that it is no more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. “And they neither found me in the temple disputing with anyone nor inciting the crowd, either in the synagogues or in the city. “Nor can they prove the things of which they now accuse me. “But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. “I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. “This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men. “Now after many years I came to bring alms and offerings to my nation, “in the midst of which some Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with a mob nor with tumult. “They ought to have been here before you to object if they had anything against me. “Or else let those who are here themselves say if they found any wrongdoing in me while I stood before the council, “unless it is for this one statement which I cried out, standing among them, ‘Concerning the resurrection of the dead I am being judged by you this day.’ ” But when Felix heard these things, having more accurate knowledge of the Way, he adjourned the proceedings and said, “When Lysias the commander comes down, I will make a decision on your case.” So he commanded the centurion to keep Paul and to let him have liberty, and told him not to forbid any of his friends to provide for or visit him. And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and answered, “Go away for now; when I have a convenient time I will call for you.” Meanwhile he also hoped that money would be given him by Paul, that he might release him. Therefore he sent for him more often and conversed with him. But after two years Porcius Festus succeeded Felix; and Felix, wanting to do the Jews a favor, left Paul bound.

Ephesians 2:11-22 NKJV — Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Colossians 2:1-23 NKJV — For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ. As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Paul didn't abandon his Jewish faith.
We non-Jewish people (aka, gentiles) have been brought into the household of God through Jesus Christ.

 

[SteveB]

You keep saying that.

perhaps you should start wondering why, and when you're told that, go back and read what i actually state, and verify what the Bible states, instead of sticking to your guns, as it were, spewing falsehoods.

And then you confirm that those supposed biases and preconceptions are right by your on-going failure to find a single Bible passage that explains the nature of the trinity.

The Triune God, YHVH's Word describes his nature.
You're trying to cherry pick a single passage, and it's not going to happen.
YHVH has expressed his nature in the Bible.
So, as YHVH is Triune and the Bible has described his nature, the nature of the trinity is explained in the Bible.

Sure you stated that. Claiming your opponent does not understand is easy, whether you are wrong or right.

then that that you actually understand.
Because so far, you keep saying that you don't.

But the fact remains; you have failed to find a single Bible passage that explains the nature of the trinity.

I never said that there was a single verse that explains the trinity.
You keep wanting something that doesn't exist. I've repeatedly explained that, but you keep pushing a fallacious theme, claiming that's definitive proof that it's not in the Bible.

But they are not coherent. That was the original point.

not for non-family members, whose sole goal is to destroy the Bible, and the lives of people who are inexperienced in their faith.

You are "supporting" your position by quote-mining different authors with different beliefs.

I asked you to explain what you think the trinity is, but instead of doing that, you quote mined 3 articles that describe the biblical description of the trinity.
so, I'm not the one quote-mining here. you failed to actually answer my question.

The Genesis 1:1 verse is because the author believed El was head of a pantheon that included Yahweh! But you ignore that and convince yourself it supports the trinity.

so, you've had a sit down with Moses, and the Holy Spirit?

Because unless you have Sar down and spoken with them, you have absolutely no idea what they believed.
As Moses spent 80 days talking with YHVH about this, and the Holy Spirit instructed Moses to use the words he did, I'd say that you have presented one more bias, and preconception, based entirely on your own ignorance.

As it's written,

2Ti 3:16-17 WEB 16 Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, 17 that each person who belongs to God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

It means the passage they wrote does not explain the nature of the trinity.

no. It that you have chosen to destroy yourself.

Hence, your failure to find a single Bible passage that explains the nature of the trinity.

I never claimed to have a single scripture.
You kept demanding that which has never existed.

I was very clear that the entire Bible is a coherent document, written by over 40 different authors, over the course of 1600 years, and spanning 3 different continents.

This is hilarious!

Of course it is.
I however think that it's incredibly sad that you have refused to pay any attention, and then blamed others for your own ineptitude and dedication to deliberate and willful ignorance.

You are actually quoting a verse that says Jesus said nothing to support your claim that Jesus explain it.

That sounds like you're committing yourself to deliberate and willful ignorance.

It is not actually my birthday, but I appreciate the gesture, Steve.

The messiah - the king of the Jews - was the son of God. This was true of all the Jewish kings. Does not make them all gods.

The messiah is indeed YHVH's anointed.
Several kings were referred to as anointed by YHVH.

This doesn't mean that Jesus is not YHVH's anointed, and the one described in the law and prophets.

Written some time later, by a gentile in my opinion, so quite a different view of Jesus, but still Jesus is very much subordinate to God. This is a long way from the trinity, even if it is a stepping stone towards that.

Oh, well! Since it's YOUR opinion, I guess you're the final authority!

I'm confident that YHVH himself will congratulate you on so decisive a claim.
It'd be a pity after all if YHVH didn't have such a good advisor as you around to clear up such obvious problems as this.

Oh.... wait.... I forgot!

He previously mentioned this issue... about 2800 years ago actually.

Isa 40:13-15 WEB 13 Who has directed Yahweh’s Spirit, or has taught him as his counselor? 14 Who did he take counsel with, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding? 15 Behold, the nations are like a drop in a bucket, and are regarded as a speck of dust on a balance. Behold, he lifts up the islands like a very little thing.

so, if i were you.... I'd check that ego. It's not an intelligent thing to do.

For one thing there is no mention of the Holy Spirit. A passage that explains the nature of the trinity has at least to mention all three components!

And?
your point is?
oh, that's right! I forgot. You're YHVH's advisor!

I was talking about the later Christians, the gentiles in the second and third century who developed the idea of the trinity, and then had to twist the Bible to fit that.

well, it's a good thing i was focused on the first century Jesus people. There were plenty of problems that arose in later centuries.

Aside from a couple of writers, I have a tendency to disregard a lot of later authors.

I very much doubt Paul believed in the trinity - or had even heard of it.

Oh, well.... just as long as you doubt it! The truth is clearly irrelevant.
Thank you for letting us know your uneducated opinion.
I'm thinking that Paul really appreciates non-family members speaking on his behalf.

it is after all really important for those who dedicate themselves to their own destruction to make sure they can bring as many people as possible to join them in their destruction.

what's really sad is.... those same people who feel like they need to save others from following Jesus... there's a special judgment that awaits them.

I am sure he had his own biases and preconceptions - it is bizarre you think being "schooled in the Jewish laws, history and culture" would make him immune to that.

it's even more bizarre that you think you're a trustworthy authority on biblical matters.

 

[SteveB]

Paul and the other earliest Christians, due to their own biases and preconceptions, believed that, and believed Jesus was that saviour.

Perhaps the scariest thing of all.
can you imagine that people would be convinced that God would send his only begotten son that whosoever will believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life!
and to top it off, he even raised him from the dead, in order to demonstrate, once and for all his power and authority over life and death.
what an utterly astonishing thing!

well, it is after all, your eternity we're talking about.
If you don't care, i suppose you'll get exactly what you want.

But they did not believe Jesus was part of the trinity - that was invented later.

yeah. I'd heard about this.
not entirely convincing.
they only thing they did was to recognize biblical text that shows a clear Triune God.
the Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
the Son is not the Father nor is he the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Son, nor is he the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor is he the Son.
the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are YHVH, the one God.
anyone who can read, and understand can plainly see this.

I have read them, and I have confirmed that no single passage explains the nature of the trinity.

your brilliance is astounding!
you actually surmised that did you....
pity you're not actually able or willing to show where YHVH is yachid, and not echad.
Anti-trinitarians have been trying since Ahrius, but cannot.
Which is pretty much why nicea was called in the first place.
Ahrius had some seriously erroneous ideas, but wouldn't recognize their problems. So, the council helped clarify them, and then codified the ideas in the Bible.

Have you read them? If so, you know that is true.

?
I think the problem here isn't that I haven't read. But that i am not you. I don't think like you, nor believe what you want me to blindly accept as truth.

And yet it omits explaining the nature of the trinity, a fundamental part of Christianity!

Pity you keep missing the point that YHVH's nature is described throughout the entire Bible, and as he is the Triune God the nature of the Triune God is contained within the pages of the Bible.
thus, the nature of the trinity is explained in the Bible.

Or it is the mistaken and delusional ranting of religious cultists.

just because the only way for you to make any sense of your being outside the family of YHVH is for us to be delusional, mistaken, religious cultists.
Well, the good thing about this is that when you die, you will never ever have to worry about us bothering you again.
You'll get exactly what you want... to be separated from YHVH for all eternity.
That should make you absolutely ecstatic.

How do we tell which?

Already explained. But apparently you lack the mental faculty to reason clearly.
otherwise you would have previously taken the time to engage YHVH on his terms.

You were conditioned as a small child to think it is a message from God, so it is decided for you.

Not true. But since this has been repeatedly explained to you, I'll enjoy my eternal life, and when you face your judgment, you can try deluding YHVH with this one.
It's actually quite interesting how extensive his record keeping system is.
Every thought, every word, every action, every single human being from Adam and Eve, to the very last human being to die, throughout all human history.
the word on the street is that there have been upwards of 105 billion people who have lived, just so far.
and he knows every single one.
in fact, Hebrews 4:13 says that we're naked before God and he knows everything about us....

You KNOW the trinity is true, so you see it in every verse.

i actually see it in the complete Bible. As it's written,
in the volume of the book it is written of me.

That does not apply to me.

I can see that. Pity you exclude yourself from the family.

I am still looking for that passage that explains the nature of the trinity.

While laudable, you actually have to read for the purpose of understanding and learning.
Furthermore, obedience is a requirement.

So far... nothing.

That's because you don't actually want to engage YHVH on his terms.

No, billion think it is true.

Experience is a curious thing.
too bad you're not experienced! It's a necessity!

But more do not think it is true.

Not my concern.
It's more important to engage YHVH on his terms and then once inside the family, the understanding of the trinity is more clearly understood.
So, you've simply gone about this backwards.
You have tried wrapping your head around a topic that is only understood by the heart, and only by members of the family of YHVH.

It is what he said he would do for us.
Psalm 111:10 NKJV — The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;
A good understanding have all those who do His commandments.
His praise endures forever

Psalm 147:11 NKJV — The LORD takes pleasure in those who fear Him,
In those who hope in His mercy.

You're welcome to come and see for yourself.
Engage YHVH on his terms and you'll find exactly what your heart longs for.

The problem is that to know the gospel is true, you have to first be sure the gospel is true.

It's been true since Jesus rose from the dead.

You got that drummed into you as a kid. I did not.

You keep telling yourself that.
Quite frankly, I'm thinking that this is your mantra to justify your ongoing dedication to deliberate and willful ignorance.

 

[Tiburon]

Only if context has no meaning to you.
Context means a lot in the world I live on.
I wouldn't talk Jehovahs witness to a Mormon or a Muslim, or even a Buddhist.
So, you being a PK has great context. The same as a JW, a Mormon, a Muslim, etc....
That you find it bothersome, I find curious. You sound terrified that you should be understood.

Is every PK the same? What does knowing that I am a PK tell you about me?
What I'm "terrified" of is the cliched BS that you'll trot out in response to that nugget of information.

Reversing our drift is simply a matter of daily engagement with God, the Bible, fellowship with others who are engaging him on his terms.

And why would someone bother to engage with something they didn't believe in?
Do you engage daily with fairies or goblins?

Peter tells us in the first chapter of his 2nd letter to give all diligence to add to our faith, virtue; to your virtue, knowledge; to your knowledge, self-control; to your self-control, perseverance; to your perseverance, brotherly kindness; to your brotherly kindness, love. For if these things are in you and abound, they shall make you neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of God and Jesus.

As diligence has never really been a quality I've possessed, I just keep going, each day, a bit at a time.
And I've recently been coming to realize that diligence is as much just taking one step after another, and not quitting, as it can be running full throttle.
It's written in Proverbs,

Pro 24:16 WEB for a righteous man falls seven times and rises up again, but the wicked are overthrown by calamity.

So, getting up when you fall is as much to diligence as continuing on.

Something else I've come to understand lately, God is the God of encouragement, hope and perseverance.

Rom 15:4-6 WEB 4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through perseverance and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now the God of perseverance and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, 6 that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I was astonished to come to the realization that he's actually got a vested interest in making sure that we make it all the way to heaven upon our death.
He's not going to berate, demean, mock or shame us when we fall and stumble.
He'll pick us back up, dust us off and encourage us to keep going.

I don't find it surprising at all that something, I believe is a product of the human mind, would have a vested interest in said human.
I'd find it more astonishing if the opposite were true.

Perhaps. I wasn't saying you had to.
I do.
especially since several atheists have commented in what appears as a derogatory manner that i just believed what i was told, and never actually learned truth.

That you "met all kinds of people who had all kinds of beliefs, before you met Jesus". Does nothing to counter that claim.

Then you don't actually know what biblical belief is.

Then perhaps you could enlighten me?

It's not an emotion.
At most, emotion results from our thinking.

It is definitely based upon emotion.

If we focus our thinking on certain things, we're going to have an emotional response. But emotion is a result of, not the cause or source of....

Biblical belief is God making a promise to us, and then our believing that promise.

And believing that promise produces an emotional payoff. That is the result of your thinking. It doesn't verify the truth of that belief.

Abraham was perhaps the first clearly stated example of a man who believed God's word to him.

The entire Bible is about the promise of God to restore everyone who comes to Jesus.
You can be reconciled to Jesus.

It's a story that many people find appealing. Nothing shows that promise to be anything more than words.
If you don't buy into the premise behind it, that man has a fallen nature and needs redeeming, there is no reason to believe it.

 

[Manfred]

then there's obviously something lacking in the "Word of God".

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
1Co 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
1Co 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
1Co 1:27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
1Co 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

 

[5wize]

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
1Co 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
1Co 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
1Co 1:27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
1Co 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

All a lame apologetic required as a result of Christian beliefs stressing and exercising natural intellect beyond reason and common recognition all together. Paul was the first apologist, and it seems the word of God required much apology throughout the centuries as it encountered its own internal difficulties. As you note above, it went beyond merely attempting to logically answer the problems of Christian thinking, it ended up just having to abandon the requirement of thinking at all.

Not a good way to live your life.

 

[SteveB]

Is every PK the same?

did i say they were?

What does knowing that I am a PK tell you about me?

PK's are a group of people whose fathers are or were pastors, priests, ministers, reverends in religious service.
they experience a closeness to the pulpit, and see behind the scenes that nobody else can see, except for the wives of those men.

They get to see, and experience something that others long to see, but are more aware at a deeper level than outsiders could ever imagine.

they're held to a higher standard by their fathers, and are under a greater scrutiny by outsiders. When they cast off the standards they were raised with, the level of disappointment by others is greater, deeper, and more profound, as well as more deeply and profoundly felt by the PK.
They often feel like they have to live beyond their own interests for their own lives, interests, and goals.

They are a community of people who often feel isolated from others, and often they "just want to be like everyone else."

I personally think it'd be a great thing for PK's to be able to create a fellowship for each other, so they can learn to understand they are not alone in their lives, and experiences.

What I'm "terrified" of is the cliched BS that you'll trot out in response to that nugget of information.

yep.

And why would someone bother to engage with something they didn't believe in?

which just tells me that you were a PK, who never actually met Jesus.

Do you engage daily with fairies or goblins?

nope.

Welk, i take that back. ?
there's a Pixie on this forum i interact with, so... yes actually. There is one fairy i interact with.
??

I don't find it surprising at all that something, I believe is a product of the human mind, would have a vested interest in said human.

so, just as long as you believe it, it's necessarily, and objectively true?
seems a rather dangerous place to live.

I'd find it more astonishing if the opposite were true.

that's the great thing about reality.
YHVH said that he would give us a heart to know him.
Jesus said that if we keep his teachings, we would be loved by God and both Jesus and his Father will come and make their home with us.
the reality of the gospel of Jesus is that we can be fully reconciled with YHVH.

That you "met all kinds of people who had all kinds of beliefs, before you met Jesus". Does nothing to counter that claim.

None of them had what I wanted.

Then perhaps you could enlighten me?

I already did.

It is definitely based upon emotion.

nope. Emotion is a result, an outcome of out thinking. Not a cause.
Emotional response can indeed drive future thinking, but the initial element is not emotion.

And believing that promise produces an emotional payoff.

yes it does.
is that a problem?
is enjoying Peace, contentment, satisfaction, love, calmness of being wrong?
is it wrong to experience rest in your inner being? The life of the soul is the way humans are designed.

That is the result of your thinking. It doesn't verify the truth of that belief.

and what do you base your belief about this on?

My grandfather taught me from my early teen years that experience is the best teacher.
Truth has a rather curious element inherent to it that it's only known through hands on practical application.
we used to refer to it as street smarts.
people who start off in a given profession are required to gain experience with their profession because they were only educated in the theoretical and lack the practical experience.
engineers must serve a 4 year internship under a licensed professional engineer before they can become a licensed professional engineer.
Medical doctors must serve a 4 year rotation internship under board certified doctors before they can become board certified doctors.
Various professions require a similar type of post-education training by experienced professionals, before they are allowed to practice professionally in their respective areas of training.

In like manner, one can read books all day long, but never apply the information read, in real life, so they have no idea about the real world applications of their reading.

My application of the biblical teaching in my everyday life will bear out the truthfulness of the biblical narrative.

This is why Jesus told us,

If you continue in my teaching, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

just reading won't accomplish anything with regards to knowing truth. Acting on what Jesus says will bear out the veracity of his words.

It's a story that many people find appealing. Nothing shows that promise to be anything more than words.

it won't for those who never do what Jesus says.
Only those who obey him will know the truth.

If you don't buy into the premise behind it, that man has a fallen nature and needs redeeming, there is no reason to believe it.

The consequence of ignoring the reality of man's fallen nature is an eternal problem.

But, tell me... you think murder, theft, robbery, greed, avarice, cheating on one's spouse, fraud, deceit, etc... are all good things?
Do you think that alcoholism, drug abuse, etc... are good things?

 

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

In my experience, the question of the reliability of the bible as a whole usually comes up in apologetics contexts, not scholarly contexts. The bible, after all, is a collection of different historical texts, from widely different historical settings. Just to give one obvious example, the books of Kings are typically considered far more accurate historically than the book of Joshua. Or to give another example: the Gospel of Mark is probably more accurate in its depiction of Jesus than the Gospel of John.

The bible also contains several theological treatises. Take the epistle to the Romans, for example. In what sense can historians or biblical scholars call this text "reliable"? I suppose it makes occasional historical references, which might be considered true or not. But most of it is about God-stuff that can't possibly be verified by academic scholarship.

As for the people on the list in your link, I don't know how many of them are active scholars in the field. At least a few of them are dead. Some of them, while conservative relative to the prevailing scholarly views, still hold views that many Christians-in-the-pew would probably consider scandalous. For example, Donald Hagner is listed as a "conservative" scholar, but rejects the authenticity of the Gospel of Matthew and 2 Peter.



I don't "disregard" the bible. I treat the biblical texts like all other ancient texts, evaluating them according to their contents, contexts, etc.

As for making lists, that seems to me a kinda silly exercise.

There have also been academics who do have a faith but are able to be objective.

S G F Brandon was an Anglican vicar. Mark Goodacre is an Anglican. Geza Vermes was a Jew. John D Crossan still has his own beliefs. Stanley Porter does, I understand, have some belief, as did [again so I understand] E P Sanders. Likewise John Meier.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Again, for the record, this is from the OP's link to an article ...

List of Atheist And Progressive New Testament Scholars​

1. Bart Ehrman, Wheaton College
2. Mitchell G. Reddish, Southern Seminary
3. Marcus Borg, Union Theological Seminary
4. Robert Price, Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary.
5. Robert Funk, Vanderbilt University
6. John Dominic Crossan, Patrick’s College, Maynooth
7. Burton Mack, Claremont School of Theology
8. Barbara Thiering
9. Harold Attridge
10. Lloyd Geering
11. Stephen Harris
12. Karen King
13. James F. McGrath

This supports my point that there are those who study greek and the Bible and yet come to the conclusion that the Bible isn't historically reliable.

That the author of "Why I trust the Bible", William Mounce, studied greek and the Bible was the OP's criteria for the Bible being trustworthy, ....



.... when there are those who also study the same, but come to the opposite conclusion.

Cheap reaching for the appeal to popularity fallacy.
Flat earthers 100% totally rejected science.