Making God the author of sin

fltom

Well-known member
I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

. If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

They deny that it is ever said in distinct terms, God decreed that Adam should perish by his revolt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert?

John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

. If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

They deny that it is ever said in distinct terms, God decreed that Adam should perish by his revolt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert?

John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,
The Title of the Thread involves a Category Mistake; a Bait and Switch...

Your quotes do not mention the word Sin but one time mentions God Authoring Evil. God is not the Author of Sin, but the Bible says God does Create Evil. Posters need to pay attention to the OP's Shell Game of using the word Sin in the Title but using different words in the Quotes...

The Categories of Sin and Evil do not Conflate. I say this just as an influence for anyone else who may want to Post here. This is THE answer, but if you want to feed him; Y'all have fun...
 
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Chalcedon

Well-known member
I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

. If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

They deny that it is ever said in distinct terms, God decreed that Adam should perish by his revolt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert?

John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,
Its the logical and natural and conclusion with the doctrines of determinism, double predestination and the calvinists view of sovereignty. Cause equals culpability. If I caused my neighbors house to catch I'm guilty of arson. if I caused my neighbors death I'm guilty of murder, if I caused the accident I'm guilty.

There is no way around it and that is just the facts and the predicament calvinism causes with God and evil. Their doctrines if examined with scrutiny and objectivity cannot stand up under such examination. The cistern is full of holes.

Thank the Good Lord He has delivered a few of us like Joe and Predestined and a couple others un named from its grip and has set us free.

The more this is discussed, the more will be set free indeed. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. Amen.

hope this helps !!!
 

fltom

Well-known member
Its the logical and natural and conclusion with the doctrines of determinism, double predestination and the calvinists view of sovereignty. Cause equals culpability. If I caused my neighbors house to catch I'm guilty of arson. if I caused my neighbors death I'm guilty of murder, if I caused the accident I'm guilty.

There is no way around it and that is just the facts and the predicament calvinism causes with God and evil. Their doctrines if examined with scrutiny and objectivity cannot stand up under such examination. The cistern is full of holes.

Thank the Good Lord He has delivered a few of us like Joe and Predestined and a couple others un named from its grip and has set us free.

The more this is discussed, the more will be set free indeed. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. Amen.

hope this helps !!!
Yes determinism has some very negative results for the holiness, love and justice of God. It also makes some of his his actions less than rational
 

fltom

Well-known member
The Title of the Thread involves a Category Mistake; a Bait and Switch...

Your quotes do not mention the word Sin but one time mentions God Authoring Evil. God is not the Author of Sin, but the Bible says God does Create Evil. Posters need to pay attention to the OP's Shell Game of using the word Sin in the Title but using different words in the Quotes...

The Categories of Sin and Evil do not Conflate. I say this just as an influence for anyone else who may want to Post here. This is THE answer, but if you want to feed him; Y'all have fun...
Adam's fall involved sin

How is it you missed the obvious

What would you call revolt against God

and what do you imagine the evil to be that Calvin says God works into the heart of the wicked

'No there was no bait and switch

You simply were not being very perceptive here
 

Bocco

Active member
I read a book awhile ago titled What About Evil?: A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory
Publisher: P & R Publishing
Publication Date: November 2020
ISBN: 9781629955353

The forward is by D. A. Carson. It's around $30 now, but I got it a lot cheaper by ordering it as a pre-pub offer.

“Why is there evil in the world? Scott Christensen shows that this difficult question is bound up with two larger questions: ‘Why did God make the world?’ and ‘Why did God the Son become a man and suffer evil?’ Scripture gives the ultimate answer: to manifest the glory of God. Christensen’s articulate, inspiring, and gospel-driven presentation of the ‘greater-glory’ theodicy explores a significant way that God’s Word addresses the problem of evil to strengthen our faith and evoke our worship.”
Joel R. Beeke
President, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, Grand Rapids, Michigan


“This is the most Bible-saturated, ‘logic-sensical,’ and God-honoring answer to the so-called problem of evil in our generation. Gifted writer and thinker Scott Christensen has produced in What about Evil? an invaluable resource for both the inquisitive believer and the inquiring skeptic alike. I heartily recommend it to everyone wrestling with the reality of a good and sovereign God and the fact that evil still remains in this world.”

Grant R. Castleberry​

Executive Director, Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood


“Scott Christensen has a real gift for answering difficult theological questions plainly, thoroughly, and above all biblically—with colorful, engaging writing that readers at practically any level can easily comprehend and learn from. If you’re troubled by the question of why a good and omnipotent God would create a universe that includes evil—or if you are a Christian struggling to explain the problem of evil to someone else—you will greatly benefit from this book.”

John MacArthur​

Pastor-Teacher, Grace Community Church, Sun Valley, California; Chancellor Emeritus, The Master’s University and Seminary
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I read a book awhile ago titled What About Evil?: A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory
Publisher: P & R Publishing
Publication Date: November 2020
ISBN: 9781629955353

The forward is by D. A. Carson. It's around $30 now, but I got it a lot cheaper by ordering it as a pre-pub offer.

“Why is there evil in the world? Scott Christensen shows that this difficult question is bound up with two larger questions: ‘Why did God make the world?’ and ‘Why did God the Son become a man and suffer evil?’ Scripture gives the ultimate answer: to manifest the glory of God. Christensen’s articulate, inspiring, and gospel-driven presentation of the ‘greater-glory’ theodicy explores a significant way that God’s Word addresses the problem of evil to strengthen our faith and evoke our worship.”
Joel R. Beeke
President, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, Grand Rapids, Michigan


“This is the most Bible-saturated, ‘logic-sensical,’ and God-honoring answer to the so-called problem of evil in our generation. Gifted writer and thinker Scott Christensen has produced in What about Evil? an invaluable resource for both the inquisitive believer and the inquiring skeptic alike. I heartily recommend it to everyone wrestling with the reality of a good and sovereign God and the fact that evil still remains in this world.”

Grant R. Castleberry​

Executive Director, Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood


“Scott Christensen has a real gift for answering difficult theological questions plainly, thoroughly, and above all biblically—with colorful, engaging writing that readers at practically any level can easily comprehend and learn from. If you’re troubled by the question of why a good and omnipotent God would create a universe that includes evil—or if you are a Christian struggling to explain the problem of evil to someone else—you will greatly benefit from this book.”

John MacArthur​

Pastor-Teacher, Grace Community Church, Sun Valley, California; Chancellor Emeritus, The Master’s University and Seminary
It's an interesting response to raise "The Problem of Evil"; it is the Atheist's number one objection to Christianity. There is no reason for a Christian to distance themselves from the problem of evil regarding the God of the Bible; it has to be addressed in order to get through to an Atheist. They will not let you tell them that God has nothing to do with Evil...

'The Problem of Evil' is not "The Problem of Sin" though; they are two different Categories. The Bible expressly says that God doesn't Cause Sin, but it does expressly say God creates Evil. For the Christian, a distinction with a difference must be drawn; or a Contradiction DOES exist in the Bible if Sin and Evil are the same thing...
 

fltom

Well-known member
It's an interesting response to raise "The Problem of Evil"; it is the Atheist's number one objection to Christianity. There is no reason for a Christian to distance themselves from the problem of evil regarding the God of the Bible; it has to be addressed in order to get through to an Atheist. They will not let you tell them that God has nothing to do with Evil...

'The Problem of Evil' is not "The Problem of Sin" though; they are two different Categories. The Bible expressly says that God doesn't Cause Sin, but it does expressly say God creates Evil. For the Christian, a distinction with a difference must be drawn; or a Contradiction DOES exist in the Bible if Sin and Evil are the same thing...
Except Calvin and most of the Calvinists here have been arguing he determined it and being the ultimate cause of all things how can he not be the cause of it

You can't have you cake and eat it too
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Except Calvin and most of the Calvinists here have been arguing he determined it and being the ultimate cause of all things how can he not be the cause of it

You can't have you cake and eat it too
Who are they that said God Determines, or as your OP says, Authors Sin?

I thought your OP was about Quotes from Calvin affirming it...
 

Bocco

Active member
'The Problem of Evil' is not "The Problem of Sin" though; they are two different Categories. The Bible expressly says that God doesn't Cause Sin, but it does expressly say God creates Evil. For the Christian, a distinction with a difference must be drawn; or a Contradiction DOES exist in the Bible if Sin and Evil are the same thing...
I will say that sin is something that a human or an angel does. A rational being sins by disobeying God.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
2Sa 24:2 So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.”
2Sa 24:3 But Joab said to the king, “May the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times as many as they are, while the eyes of my lord the king still see it, but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?”

Yes, I know:
1Ch 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.

But if you have read the book of Job you know that Satan can do nothing that God does not allow him to do. So, God allowed Satan to move David to do something that was apparently sin.

1Ch 21:7 But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel.
1Ch 21:8 And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.”

So, it looks to this Bible believing Christian that God allowed Satan to move David to sin. But I believe that God always has a good and holy reason for whatever he permits.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I will say that sin is something that a human or an angel does. A rational being sins by disobeying God.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
2Sa 24:2 So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.”
2Sa 24:3 But Joab said to the king, “May the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times as many as they are, while the eyes of my lord the king still see it, but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?”

Yes, I know:
1Ch 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.

But if you have read the book of Job you know that Satan can do nothing that God does not allow him to do. So, God allowed Satan to move David to do something that was apparently sin.

1Ch 21:7 But God was displeased with this thing, and he struck Israel.
1Ch 21:8 And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have acted very foolishly.”

So, it looks to this Bible believing Christian that God allowed Satan to move David to sin. But I believe that God always has a good and holy reason for whatever he permits.
Do you think that applying the difference between God creating Evil but not Authoring Sin could answer this?
 

Bocco

Active member
Do you think that applying the difference between God creating Evil but not Authoring Sin could answer this?

I don't see a difference between creating and authoring whether it is evil or sin.

Create: to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes.

Author: the maker of anything; creator; originator
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Logically, if God decrees all things he is necessarily the direct author of sin by virtue of the decree, no way around it.

Now to some people, they see no real difference between allowing sin and decreeing sin; they think allowing sin is just as evil.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

. If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

They deny that it is ever said in distinct terms, God decreed that Adam should perish by his revolt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert?

John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,
Good stuff.
 
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