Making God the author of sin

Dizerner

Well-known member
Civic, Chalcedon it seems is getting a vacation almost every other day

but you got 2 months for saying someone was not acting in love?

I joined the internet around 1999.

In all that time I have never seen a forum or online place as abusive with banning as this one.

Civic is maybe starting a forum and I'm definitely not staying on this one.

I will probably be banned next time you respond to this.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It's not "just a question."

It would be like me saying "Would your wife consider you abusive?" as just a question—the question has implications.

There's no other reason to ask the question unless you thought my post did something wrong, and I was perfectly polite in it.
Your Post did nothing wrong...
 

Tercon

Well-known member
The Word Brings Salvation
Rom. 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”…

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
(Romans 1:20 NIV)



So, what reveals "God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature" and makes them "clearly seen" and "understood from what has been made" known to believers, so that men are without excuse"?
 

Predestined

Well-known member
So, what reveals "God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature" and makes them "clearly seen" and "understood from what has been made" known to believers, so that men are without excuse"?
God given intuitiveness or understanding.

Job 32:8
“But it is a spirit in man. And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.

2 Timothy 2:7
Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

Proverbs 28:5
Evil men do not understand justice,
But those who seek the Lord understand all things.

Psalm 111:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom;
A good understanding have all those who do His commandments;
His praise endures forever.

Psalm 119:144
Your testimonies are righteous forever;
Give me understanding that I may live.

Psalm 119:104
From Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.

Psalm 119:130
The unfolding of Your words gives light;
It gives understanding to the simple.

Daniel 1:20
As for every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king consulted them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and conjurers who were in all his realm.

Daniel 5:11
There is a man in your kingdom in whom is a spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of your father, illumination, insight and wisdom like the wisdom of the gods were found in him. And King Nebuchadnezzar, your father, your father the king, appointed him chief of the magicians, conjurers, Chaldeans and diviners.

Daniel 2:30
But as for me, this mystery has not been revealed to me for any wisdom residing in me more than in any other living man, but for the purpose of making the interpretation known to the king, and that you may understand the thoughts of your mind.

Daniel 9:22
He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. 1 Corinthians 2:12
Verse Concepts
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,


Colossians 1:9
For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

Psalm 119:99
I have more insight than all my teachers,
For Your testimonies are my meditation.

Psalm 119:100
I understand more than the aged,
Because I have observed Your precepts.


 

Tercon

Well-known member
God given intuitiveness or understanding.

Job 32:8
“But it is a spirit in man. And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.

2 Timothy 2:7
Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

Proverbs 28:5
Evil men do not understand justice,
But those who seek the Lord understand all things.

Psalm 111:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom;
A good understanding have all those who do His commandments;
His praise endures forever.

Psalm 119:144
Your testimonies are righteous forever;
Give me understanding that I may live.

Psalm 119:104
From Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.

Psalm 119:130
The unfolding of Your words gives light;
It gives understanding to the simple.

Daniel 1:20
As for every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king consulted them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and conjurers who were in all his realm.

Daniel 5:11
There is a man in your kingdom in whom is a spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of your father, illumination, insight and wisdom like the wisdom of the gods were found in him. And King Nebuchadnezzar, your father, your father the king, appointed him chief of the magicians, conjurers, Chaldeans and diviners.

Daniel 2:30
But as for me, this mystery has not been revealed to me for any wisdom residing in me more than in any other living man, but for the purpose of making the interpretation known to the king, and that you may understand the thoughts of your mind.

Daniel 9:22
He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. 1 Corinthians 2:12
Verse Concepts
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,


Colossians 1:9
For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

Psalm 119:99
I have more insight than all my teachers,
For Your testimonies are my meditation.

Psalm 119:100
I understand more than the aged,
Because I have observed Your precepts.


Can you know God without believing Him?
 

Predestined

Well-known member
Can you know God without believing Him?
Well lets see.

Romans 1:21, NLT: Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

Looks like you can.

God’s “invisible attributes”—they are “clearly seen” or known by the things that God has created.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Well lets see.

Romans 1:21, NLT: Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

Looks like you can.

God’s “invisible attributes”—they are “clearly seen” or known by the things that God has created.

Sorry rephrase, I wasn't referring to unbelievers. Can you have a relationship with Him and be a child of God without believing Him?
 

Predestined

Well-known member
Sorry rephrase, I wasn't referring to unbelievers. Can you have a relationship with Him and be a child of God without believing Him?
Interesting question and after thinking it over in order to give it an answer I would need to know what God is saying or doing that would make one not believe Him. The Key is... do you want a good relationship with your Heavenly Father or a bad one? Firsthand experience for me is it's Always better to do it God's way.

Genesis 2:16-17 records God’s words to Adam. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17

Adam had a relationship with Him and was a child of God (His creation) and yet in this case seems not to have believed Him. There are always consequences for not believing and obeying God.

For the people of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, until all the nation, the men of war who came out of Egypt, perished, because they did not obey the voice of the LORD; the LORD swore to them that he would not let them see the land that the LORD had sworn to their fathers to give to us, a land flowing with milk and honey. Josua5:6

A journey that only took 11 days turned into 40 years.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Interesting question and after thinking it over in order to give it an answer I would need to know what God is saying or doing that would make one not believe Him.

Well if you "would need to know what God is saying or doing", in other words you would have to have some knowledge of God. And if all knowledge requires belief, then you would have to believe Him rather than "not believe Him".

The Key is... do you want a good relationship with your Heavenly Father or a bad one? Firsthand experience for me is it's Always better to do it God's way.

I think there is only one kind of relationship with God and that's a good one.
A bad relationship requires unbelief and separation from God, which entails no knowledge of God, nor relationship with Him.

Genesis 2:16-17 records God’s words to Adam. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17

Adam had a relationship with Him and was a child of God (His creation) and yet in this case seems not to have believed Him.

Actually Adam did have "a relationship with Him and was a child of God (His creation)". However it was Eve "in this case seems not to have believed Him".

There are always consequences for not believing and obeying God.

For the people of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, until all the nation, the men of war who came out of Egypt, perished, because they did not obey the voice of the LORD; the LORD swore to them that he would not let them see the land that the LORD had sworn to their fathers to give to us, a land flowing with milk and honey. Josua5:6

A journey that only took 11 days turned into 40 years.

Again, I am not referring to anyone only believers, those who have a relationship with God.

Remember, they left many dead unbelievers in the desert.

if according to the death of all men these die -- or the charge of all men is charged upon them -- Jehovah hath not sent me; and if a strange thing Jehovah do, and the ground hath opened her mouth and swallowed them, and all that they have, and they have gone down alive to Sheol -- then ye have known that these men have despised Jehovah.' Numbers 16:29-30
 

Predestined

Well-known member
Well if you "would need to know what God is saying or doing", in other words you would have to have some knowledge of God. And if all knowledge requires belief, then you would have to believe Him rather than "not believe Him".



I think there is only one kind of relationship with God and that's a good one.
A bad relationship requires unbelief and separation from God, which entails no knowledge of God, nor relationship with Him.



Actually Adam did have "a relationship with Him and was a child of God (His creation)". However it was Eve "in this case seems not to have believed Him".



Again, I am not referring to anyone only believers, those who have a relationship with God.

Remember, they left many dead unbelievers in the desert.

if according to the death of all men these die -- or the charge of all men is charged upon them -- Jehovah hath not sent me; and if a strange thing Jehovah do, and the ground hath opened her mouth and swallowed them, and all that they have, and they have gone down alive to Sheol -- then ye have known that these men have despised Jehovah.' Numbers 16:29-30
There you go, you got it.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

. If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

They deny that it is ever said in distinct terms, God decreed that Adam should perish by his revolt,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert?

John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,

Evil and sin only occurs in the deceived minds of unbelievers. And not in the mind of God.

Evil and sin have no place in the truth and reality, but evil and sin is a the domain of the unbelieving deluded mind.

And just how does God establish or "permit" evil and sin when He destroys it? And to suggest that God has anything to do with sin other than destroy it is illogical to say the least.
 
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fltom

Well-known member
Evil and sin only occurs in the deceived minds of unbelievers. And not in the mind of God.

Evil and sin have no place in the truth and reality, but evil and sin is a the domain of the unbelieving deluded mind.

And just how does God establish or "permit" evil and sin when He destroys it? And to suggest that God has anything to do with sin other than destroy it is illogical to say the least.
Nothing biblical there
 

fltom

Well-known member
So, how does the written or spoken words by apostles or prophets make God known to us?
reading and understanding

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

2 Timothy 3:15 (ESV) — 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4 (ESV) — 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Nothing biblical there

Evasion. And what I said is true in reality, and because it is true, then you can't refute it.

Here it is again:

Evil and sin only occurs in the deceived minds of unbelievers. And not in the mind of God. Is this true or not?

Evil and sin have no place in the truth and reality of God, but evil and sin is a the domain of the unbelieving deluded mind. Is this true or not?

And just how does God establish or "permit" evil and sin when He destroys evil and sin? And to suggest that God has anything to do with sin other than destroy it is illogical to say the least. Is this true or not?

reading and understanding

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

2 Timothy 3:15 (ESV) — 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4 (ESV) — 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, (not without believing it you can't.)

You can't have any "understanding" of what the Bible means without believing it first.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Evasion. And what I said is true in reality, and because it is true, then you can't refute it.

Here it is again:

Evil and sin only occurs in the deceived minds of unbelievers. And not in the mind of God. Is this true or not?

Evil and sin have no place in the truth and reality of God, but evil and sin is a the domain of the unbelieving deluded mind. Is this true or not?
no evil and sin exist
 

Tercon

Well-known member
no evil and sin exist

I know.

And if evil and sin doesn't exist, then how is God responsible for establishing or "permitting" evil and sin? And God destroys evil and sin by establishing His truth and reality in the minds of believers.
 

fltom

Well-known member
I know.

And if evil and sin doesn't exist, then how is God responsible for establishing or "permitting" evil and sin? And God destroys evil and sin by establishing His truth and reality in the minds of believers.
no that is

No. Evil and sin exist.
 
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