Making God the author of sin

You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, are you aware that "tempt" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?
(Apparently not.)

Exactly, “tempt” is NOT the same as “determining that something be tempted”.

And just to bring up a few distinctions with a difference…


“Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.” (Mat 4:1)

“Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven… lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” (Mat 6:9-13)


Why pray for God to not do what fltom falsely assume God never does?

 
I do not see how they can escape it

or how they cannot see how determinism impacts negatively on the love, justice and the holiness of God
Yes it does impact negatively on the love, justice and the holiness of God.

Imagine a little girl being kidnapped by a vile sex maniac who places her in his car and drives from her neighborhood to an isolated forest alongside a river. In spite of her crying and protesting, he takes her down to the riverbank where he rapes her, strangles her, and throws her body in the river. This is not merely imaginary; it is based on a true story.

Calvin offers us the case of a merchant who foolishly wanders away from his companions and comes upon a thieves’ den and is robbed and murdered. As earlier quoted, he says this event, like all events, was not only foreseen and allowed by God but actually caused and governed by God’s secret plan. Nowhere does he suggest or allow that this is an exception to God’s sovereignty; rather, he makes clear it is an illustration of how God works all things that are always being “directed by God’s ever-present hand.”

We read about the foolish merchant or a similar event today and shake our heads and say, “Yup; I can see God foreordaining that. What a stupid man. And God could easily have a good reason for causing that to happen.” But if Calvin is right it is not only the foolish merchant whose death is rendered certain by God; it is also the kidnap, rape, and murder of the little girl that was “directed by God’s ever-present hand.” Notice that this event was not a freak disaster of nature or the result of someone’s stupidity. It was pure evil. But whether we take Calvin’s illustration of the murdered merchant or the very real illustration of the little girl, according to Calvinism’s view of God’s sovereignty both are identical in that God planned, ordained, governed, and rendered them certain. That makes God and his secret counsel “the determined architect of evil.”


INSTITUTES of THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION BY JOHN CALVIN
CHAPTER XVI the world, created by God, still cherished and protected by him. each and all of its parts governed by his providence
2. That this distinction may be the more manifest, we must consider that the Providence of God, as taught in Scripture, is opposed to fortune and fortuitous causes. By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day, viz., that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried.

If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death—all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whoso has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered, (Matth. 10:30,) will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects, again, we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. Hence they are merely instruments, into which God constantly infuses what energy he sees meet, and turns and converts to any purpose at his pleasure
 
Yes it does impact negatively on the love, justice and the holiness of God.

Imagine a little girl being kidnapped by a vile sex maniac who places her in his car and drives from her neighborhood to an isolated forest alongside a river. In spite of her crying and protesting, he takes her down to the riverbank where he rapes her, strangles her, and throws her body in the river. This is not merely imaginary; it is based on a true story.

So you think God is a man, of the same level as His creation,
and that sinners are in fact innocent victims?

Is that what you're trying to say?

You're appealing to emotionalism instead of the Bible.
You defend sinners and try to condemn God.

Calvin offers us the case of ...

Maybe you should stop obsessing about "Calvin", and instead try to make a BIBLICAL argument.
 
Yes it does impact negatively on the love, justice and the holiness of God.

Imagine a little girl being kidnapped by a vile sex maniac who places her in his car and drives from her neighborhood to an isolated forest alongside a river. In spite of her crying and protesting, he takes her down to the riverbank where he rapes her, strangles her, and throws her body in the river. This is not merely imaginary; it is based on a true story.

Calvin offers us the case of a merchant who foolishly wanders away from his companions and comes upon a thieves’ den and is robbed and murdered. As earlier quoted, he says this event, like all events, was not only foreseen and allowed by God but actually caused and governed by God’s secret plan. Nowhere does he suggest or allow that this is an exception to God’s sovereignty; rather, he makes clear it is an illustration of how God works all things that are always being “directed by God’s ever-present hand.”

We read about the foolish merchant or a similar event today and shake our heads and say, “Yup; I can see God foreordaining that. What a stupid man. And God could easily have a good reason for causing that to happen.” But if Calvin is right it is not only the foolish merchant whose death is rendered certain by God; it is also the kidnap, rape, and murder of the little girl that was “directed by God’s ever-present hand.” Notice that this event was not a freak disaster of nature or the result of someone’s stupidity. It was pure evil. But whether we take Calvin’s illustration of the murdered merchant or the very real illustration of the little girl, according to Calvinism’s view of God’s sovereignty both are identical in that God planned, ordained, governed, and rendered them certain. That makes God and his secret counsel “the determined architect of evil.”


INSTITUTES of THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION BY JOHN CALVIN
CHAPTER XVI the world, created by God, still cherished and protected by him. each and all of its parts governed by his providence
2. That this distinction may be the more manifest, we must consider that the Providence of God, as taught in Scripture, is opposed to fortune and fortuitous causes. By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day, viz., that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried.

If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death—all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whoso has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered, (Matth. 10:30,) will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects, again, we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. Hence they are merely instruments, into which God constantly infuses what energy he sees meet, and turns and converts to any purpose at his pleasure
Incredible
 
Yes it does impact negatively on the love, justice and the holiness of God.

Imagine a little girl being kidnapped by a vile sex maniac who places her in his car and drives from her neighborhood to an isolated forest alongside a river. In spite of her crying and protesting, he takes her down to the riverbank where he rapes her, strangles her, and throws her body in the river. This is not merely imaginary; it is based on a true story.

…”was not only foreseen and allowed by God…”

Since you believe that God not only “foresees“ but also “allows” the raping of the little girl and the throwing her body in the river…

Is it that God “allows” EVERY rape of a little girl…

…or is it that God only Determines to “allow” the rapings of little girls he “wants” to come to pass… and the rest he does not “allow”?

Why would God, in your view, prefer the will of the ripest over the will of the little girl being raped?

Could you imagine allowing someone to rape a little girl when you have the power to stop it before it happens?

 
Yes it does impact negatively on the love, justice and the holiness of God.

Imagine a little girl being kidnapped by a vile sex maniac who places her in his car and drives from her neighborhood to an isolated forest alongside a river. In spite of her crying and protesting, he takes her down to the riverbank where he rapes her, strangles her, and throws her body in the river. This is not merely imaginary; it is based on a true story.

Calvin offers us the case of a merchant who foolishly wanders away from his companions and comes upon a thieves’ den and is robbed and murdered. As earlier quoted, he says this event, like all events, was not only foreseen and allowed by God but actually caused and governed by God’s secret plan. Nowhere does he suggest or allow that this is an exception to God’s sovereignty; rather, he makes clear it is an illustration of how God works all things that are always being “directed by God’s ever-present hand.”

We read about the foolish merchant or a similar event today and shake our heads and say, “Yup; I can see God foreordaining that. What a stupid man. And God could easily have a good reason for causing that to happen.” But if Calvin is right it is not only the foolish merchant whose death is rendered certain by God; it is also the kidnap, rape, and murder of the little girl that was “directed by God’s ever-present hand.” Notice that this event was not a freak disaster of nature or the result of someone’s stupidity. It was pure evil. But whether we take Calvin’s illustration of the murdered merchant or the very real illustration of the little girl, according to Calvinism’s view of God’s sovereignty both are identical in that God planned, ordained, governed, and rendered them certain. That makes God and his secret counsel “the determined architect of evil.”


INSTITUTES of THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION BY JOHN CALVIN
CHAPTER XVI the world, created by God, still cherished and protected by him. each and all of its parts governed by his providence
2. That this distinction may be the more manifest, we must consider that the Providence of God, as taught in Scripture, is opposed to fortune and fortuitous causes. By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day, viz., that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried.

If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death—all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whoso has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered, (Matth. 10:30,) will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects, again, we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. Hence they are merely instruments, into which God constantly infuses what energy he sees meet, and turns and converts to any purpose at his pleasure
I know you’ve got me on ignore but I’m posting this for others to see. If God did not decree these in the above post, then they served Him no purpose. That’s what we mean by God’s decrees, that that which He decrees serve a purpose for Him. So, these things that happened, God just set there and let it occur, knowing He could have stopped it but didn’t. These ppl were done horribly wrong, God just sat there and didn’t stop it, all the while these things happened while serving Him no purpose at all. Ummmm, that deism Brother. Who serves a cruel god now?
 
fltom said:
You did not address the verses which show God did not determine everything
Theo
Why should we believe they "show" any such thing?

Maybe you might want to believe truth for a change?

fltom said:
God does not determine all sin

James 1:13 (AV) — 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Theo
You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

LOL

How much exegesis do you need?

Temptation to evil happens God does not do it

Had he determined it then it would tempt to evil

Theo
Also, are you aware that "tempt" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?
(Apparently not.)

No but it is something God does not determine

God is not disengenous as to say he does not tempt while he actually determines it

It is rather amazing you imagine God acts in an underhanded manner



fltom said:
1 John 2:16 (AV) — 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Theo
You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Typical Theo you are not interrested in actually dealing with anything you can just offer denial for

Those things happen but it is not of the Father

If he determined it, then it would be of him



fltom said:
Jeremiah 32:35 (AV) — 35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Theo
You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Because it does not take much thinking to know that if it did not come into his mind that they should do this he could not have determined it

Theo does not interact with the text but attempts to stonewall that which is contrary to his doctrine



fltom said:
Isaiah 30:1 (AV) — 1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:


Theo
You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, are you aware that "counsel" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?
(Apparently not.)


Theo continues his stonewalling

Have you forgotten your doctrine claims God determines all things

Council would be included in that

If God determined that they should have taken that council then it was of him

You are simply ignoring the point


fltom said:
Galatians 5:7–8 (AV) — 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Theo
You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, are you aware that "persuade" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?
(Apparently not.)

More stonewalling Theo

The persausion was not of God. Had God determined it then it would be of God

fltom said:
1 Corinthians 14:33 (AV) — 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Theo
You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, are you aware that "confuse" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?
(Apparently not.)

Confusion happens Theo

It is not of God

had God determined it then it would be of god

Hello

Maybe instead of stonewalling and ignoring the argument you should actually death with it

fltom said:
1 Corinthians 10:13 (AV) — 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Theo
You have provided no exegesis for this, so why should anyone be convinced that this allegedly goes against God determining things?

Also, are you aware that "tempt" is NOT the same thing as "determine"?

More of Theos failure to actually deal with a text

Had god determined your sin it would not be true he provided a means of avoiding it

Hello

you have not dealt with te verse

you are sidestepping and stonewalling

Theo
A big fat goose egg.
Or rather SEVEN big fat goose eggs.
You've "proved" nothing.

Give it up Theo

all you did is say no exegesuis why should we believe it

It was nothing but effort at stonewalling the truth so you would not have to deal with it

and you did not
 
Since you believe that God not only “foresees“ but also “allows” the raping of the little girl and the throwing her body in the river…

Is it that God “allows” EVERY rape of a little girl…

…or is it that God only Determines to “allow” the rapings of little girls he “wants” to come to pass… and the rest he does not “allow”?

Why would God, in your view, prefer the will of the ripest over the will of the little girl being raped?

Could you imagine allowing someone to rape a little girl when you have the power to stop it before it happens?

Deflection does not cover the fact your theology makes God the cause of it
 
Truly

How can anyone actually believe this stuff?
Tip of the iceberg...

Here is one of a long List:


John Calvin’s Reign of Terror:

  • He had Servetus burned at the stake on October 27, 1553,
  • Gentile beheaded in 1566,
  • 34 women burned at the stake after accusing them of being witches who caused a plague that had swept through Geneva in 1545,
  • “Freckles” Dunant dies under torture in February 1545 without admitting to the crime of spreading the plague,
  • Several men and women are apprehended including a barber and a hospital supervisor who had “made a pact with the devil” in 1545,
  • 2 women executed by burning at the stake for sorcery by spreading the plague in March 7, 1545,
  • Belot (an Anabaptist) chained and tortured – against infant baptism in 1545,
  • 7 men executed concerning the plague outbreak in May 16, 1545,
  • a child was whipped publicly for calling his mother a thief,
  • a girl who struck her parents was beheaded,
  • Jacques Gruet accused of writing a poster against Calvin, was arrested, tortured, then executed in July 1546,
  • and the list goes on, his victims ranging in age from 16-80.
If John Calvin was Elect, then so was Hitler! 58 murders is as good as 6 million.
 
Deflection does not cover the fact your theology makes God the cause of it

So you don’t deny that you believe God not only “foresees“ but also “allows” the raping of the little girl and the throwing her body in the river…

So can fltom answer… Is it that God “allows” EVERY rape of a little girl…

…or is it that God only Determines to “allow” the rapings of little girls he “wants” to come to pass… and the rest he does not “allow”?

Why would God, in your view, prefer the will of the rapest over the will of the little girl being raped?

Could you imagine allowing someone to rape a little girl when you have the power to stop it before it happens?
 
Truly

How can anyone actually believe this stuff?

By “this stuff” do you mean your belief that God “forseeing” the raping of a little girl and instead of preventing it determines to “allow” it?

 
You can not escape even the mere fact that God created knowing that “all sin” would be the result of his own action. God determining to take that action is what ultimately determined the known results of that action.

Heb1:3 is simply proof that God is also necessary for all action, described as sin, after his act of creation.

Your pointing to Storyline level outplay of the very things that can not come to pass apart from God choosing to exert the power to bring them to pass in the first place does not even touch the issue.



Yet you will not even touch my post to address anything I said so as to demonstrate how anything I stated is in error because you can not… here again for your convenience…
Er you never addressed a single verse

Why is that?

Why do you attempt to avoid rather than discover what the bible teaches?
 
You're going off on bunny trails that look like they're evading the question.

There is only two answers to the question, does God create ALL evil or SOME evil?

Is it ALL?

Or is it SOME?
I just woke up. I went home from work sick today. So I don't really feel like saying much...

The Bible says that God create evil. I would say this means that God create all evil. I would compare this to God Creating all Acts yet not Authoring Sin. What makes an act a sin, is the meaning of the person in the act. So I would say that God create evil, but his meaning isn't sinful. The one verse a poster quoted the other day is that Israel sin caught the attention of God, so God decreed something evil as punishment. I don't feel good, so my memory is not precise. But it was a punishment, and God's punishments are not sinful even if God uses evil as a punishment..
 
By “this stuff” do you mean your belief that God “forseeing” the raping of a little girl and instead of preventing it determines to “allow” it?

No I mean the belief that God decreed each and every rape, murder , genocide, child molestation and then work to cause it
 
I just woke up. I went home from work sick today. So I don't really feel like saying much...

The Bible says that God create evil. I would say this means that God create all evil. I would compare this to God Creating all Acts yet not Authoring Sin. What makes an act a sin, is the meaning of the person in the act. So I would say that God create evil, but his meaning isn't sinful. The one verse a poster quoted the other day is that Israel sin caught the attention of God, so God decreed something evil as punishment. I don't feel good, so my memory is not precise. But it was a punishment, and God's punishments are not sinful even if God uses evil as a punishment..
How is decreeing all sin and then taking steps to make it happen not being the author of it
 
No I mean the belief that God decreed each and every rape, murder , genocide, child molestation

God Determining to “allow” is no less Determinative of something coming to pass…

You have been corrected on your misuse of the word “decree” many times now…
Decree and Determined are not the same thing…

 
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