Making the Case for Belief

Nouveau

Well-known member
Very very simple. But first, do you know why the Egyptians honored a corpse so much that they tried to preserve them as mummies? To Egyptians the cosmos was the corpse of a divine entity and they expected it would be reborn as something new. A new creation. So they cared for the corpse of their king knowing that the corpse is sacred.

Therefore, if the cosmos was lifeless before it produced life in us, then our souls are the cosmos living again. What is the resurrection but a dead body rising from its grave? The myths of resurrection reflect an underlying truth about us and our reality. So you guys expect evidence for the myth being an historical event (which will never happen) all the while missing the extradorinaiy event occurring all around you,— the actual resurrection of souls within a dead body, the universal corpse comprised of matter. “The Logos became flesh” says scripture.

God sees it, the sages saw it, the mystics saw it, the apostles saw it, and the authors of the Gospels saw it before they wrote about it in scriptural fiction, whereas, everyone else thinks it is common for souls to arise from non life in a visible universe 38 billion light years across. When actually, our existence is a miracle from a cosmic perspective.
Thanks for the explanation. It seems though that "the resurrection" as you define it - as parts of the universe becoming sentient - isn't really relevant to the disagreements between Christians and atheists. When we ask for evidence it is because most Christians have a very different conception of the resurrection in mind, and it is one that Christians and atheists actually disagree about.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Thanks for the explanation. It seems though that "the resurrection" as you define it - as parts of the universe becoming sentient - isn't really relevant to the disagreements between Christians and atheists. When we ask for evidence it is because most Christians have a very different conception of the resurrection in mind, and it is one that Christians and atheists actually disagree about.
I know you guys are disagreeing over something irrelevant and I sit here on the sidelines shaking my head knowing what resurrection actually means and the evidence for it which everyone sees with their eyes but does not perceive in understanding.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I know you guys are disagreeing over something irrelevant and I sit here on the sidelines shaking my head knowing what resurrection actually means and the evidence for it which everyone sees with their eyes but does not perceive in understanding.
It's not irrelevant though. It's what we actually disagree about. And your alternate usage isn't what the term 'actually means' - it's just how you are using the term. Actual meaning is a function of actual usage.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Maybe God told them. I don’t know.
But you said "So you guys expect evidence for the myth being an historical event (which will never happen) all the while missing the extradorinaiy event occurring all around you,— the actual resurrection of souls within a dead body, the universal corpse comprised of matter."

You wrote above as if you believe this. You don't know why?
 

docphin5

Well-known member
But you said "So you guys expect evidence for the myth being an historical event (which will never happen) all the while missing the extradorinaiy event occurring all around you,— the actual resurrection of souls within a dead body, the universal corpse comprised of matter."

You wrote above as if you believe this. You don't know why?
Yes I believe our lives are extraordinary and I will give you four guesses why?

1) God told me where we came from and who we actually are to him
2) I don’t actually believe it but enjoy pulling your chain.
3) I ate too much one night causing a wild idea to form in my head.
4) I just make this up as I go.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
It's not irrelevant though. It's what we actually disagree about. And your alternate usage isn't what the term 'actually means' - it's just how you are using the term. Actual meaning is a function of actual usage.
Ok I will just sit here and go, “But...”, “but...”, “but...” as I usually do, hoping someday everyone will see the extraordinary life they have been given, and hoping they appreciate their opportunity to bring honor to our noble heritage, to our home and to our birthright from God.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Ok I will just sit here and go, “But...”, “but...”, “but...” as I usually do, hoping someday everyone will see the extraordinary life they have been given, and hoping they appreciate their opportunity to bring honor to our noble heritage, to our home and to our birthright from God.
I'm happy to agree with you on life being extraordinary. The God but is where we differ, but I'm glad you're here to share your perspective. Cheers.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
I'm happy to agree with you on life being extraordinary. The God but is where we differ, but I'm glad you're here to share your perspective. Cheers.
But if your life is extraordinary why not explore that further? Instead you will go right back to trying to disprove any divine entity having anything to do with you. You presume to be a cosmic accident rather than part of a master plan. Why do we have such low expectations for ourselves?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
But if your life is extraordinary why not explore that further?
I do. Through science, philosophy, and reason.

Instead you will go right back to trying to disprove any divine entity having anything to do with you.
I'm right here, availing myself of any evidence one might have for a divine entity.

You presume to be a cosmic accident rather than part of a master plan. Why do we have such low expectations for ourselves?
I don't think I have low expectations. I just follow the evidence, and I don't see any for a divine plan.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
I do. Through science, philosophy, and reason.
As do I
I'm right here, availing myself of any evidence one might have for a divine entity.
What if you are that evidence
I don't think I have low expectations. I just follow the evidence, and I don't see any for a divine plan.
You don’t see evidence for it because you are part of it. You are trying to look at it objectively but you cannot because you are an actor in the drama unfolding all around you.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Yes I believe our lives are extraordinary and I will give you four guesses why?

1) God told me where we came from and who we actually are to him
Nope.
2) I don’t actually believe it but enjoy pulling your chain.
Nope.
3) I ate too much one night causing a wild idea to form in my head.
Nope.
4) I just make this up as I go.
Nope.
.
So what do you believe about this? I get that you think we are extraordinary, like billions of bacteria coming alive in the carcass of a dead deity, but do you believe we are animations inside a dead deity or that we are supernatural in any sense of the word?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Conversations/debate between theists and atheists routinely hit limits and brick walls, as if the two parties are talking different languages. In a way, this is exactly what is happening. And while it might be entertaining for a moment to circle around speaking in terms and sentences that mean completely different things to each other, the entertainment value starts to decline rather rapidly and often into a negative, ad hominem riddled exchange until it ends only to be rekindled in another thread.

Here's a (hopefully not entirely fruitless) attempt at making the position from where myself and likely most atheists here at least relatable. Its not an attempt to make any comparison, it is an attempt to provide an explanatory example of why we atheists reject personal testimony and passages and quotes from scripture.

If you would, put yourself in the non-believer's shoes for a moment and think about what kind of evidence would be required for you to be convinced that Spider-Man is real and that Spider-Man stories have an important message for you. I'm willing to bet it would require more than my say-so and it would require more than me quoting characters in the story and it would take more than me telling you to test it by going to New York City and seeing for yourself that the city actually exists. It would take something extraordinary, wouldn't it?
To take the atheist position would be to lack belief.


The point here is to not make a case for the existence of Spider-man nor to parody belief; rather the point is to put the (an?) atheist position into relatable terms and see where the conversation leads.

Extra ordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Or:
With great claims comes great responsibility (to support those claims).

Cheers,
-BT
You are conflating belief and unbelief. YOU have to be honest enough admit that if belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then you have to put forward something you believe to be true in reality against what we believe about Christianity.
 

5wize

Well-known member
You are conflating belief and unbelief. YOU have to be honest enough admit that if belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then you have to put forward something you believe to be true in reality against what we believe about Christianity.
We believe that existence is natural and self contained.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Thanks. So this belief "that existence is natural and self contained", in what way or means is it made known to YOU or "self contained" in and by?
 

docphin5

Well-known member
So what do you believe about this? I get that you think we are extraordinary, like billions of bacteria coming alive in the carcass of a dead deity, but do you believe we are animations inside a dead deity or that we are supernatural in any sense of the word?
Let me ask you something before I answer your question. If the singularity from which "all things" arose was intelligent in addition to being extremely ordered and powerful would you call it a "supernatural" entity or just a "natural" entity?

In anticipation that you will say that an intelligent singularity is not possible, let me remind you that the best science in the world acknowledges the singularity from which "all things" come from was extremely ordered and powerful. I propose from science itself (and not necessarily religion) that the singularity was also intelligent, for in our universe, intelligence and cognitive capacity correlate with complexity.

So tell me, presuming our origins came from this powerful, extremely ordered, plausibly intelligent entity, which scientists call the "singularity" at the beginning of our cosmos, what would YOU describe it as, "supernatural" or "natural"?

It really makes no difference to me what label you choose as long as WE agree on what WE are talking about. Labels, titles, and names carry baggage, negative or positive connotations, and people react to names and titles before they even understand what they mean.

So far our discussion is based solely on the empirical evidence, science, facts, and reason. I have not suggested anything, yet, that is a theological proposition. Would any a-theist, scientist, or educated person reject the notion that "all things" came from a single, complex, powerful, plausibly, intelligent thing?

Now, to answer your question.

Yes, I accept the evidence in front of us, that the origination of our souls in a lifeless universe made such lifeless universe alive again which can be characterized as a "resurrection". It matters not to me whether you call it a "supernatural" or "natural" process.

From Merriam Webster
Resurrection -- : the state of one risen from the dead

Obviously, the weakness in my proposition is that the whole body remains as a corpse, nevertheless, alive, --in us. Which means that for the aliveness in us to continue, the whole body must also be returned to perfection, ordered, and whole. And that is exactly one evidence-based theory for the end of our universe.

The point here is that the theological idea of "resurrection" can be correlated with natural processes. Taken as a whole, the life of the universe (from "beginning" to "end", from "first" to "last"), its "body" (or corpse), soul(s) (us), and spirit (virtues: love, good, truth, etc.) could arguably be characterized as "supernatural" and part of a Master Plan.

What plan would that be? (Here it becomes theological). For God to return a good life to his Son (creation) in us, and save us to become his family for eternity. We truly are the sons and daughters of God which makes us extraordinary!! We are his handwriting in the universe.
 
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