The only reason someone would want another sure pledge is because they do not trust the first sure pledge. Surely it indicates a lack of trust in the One making the pledge, but trust in the second pledge-maker. ?
--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
Marian Prayers--Catholics try to tell us that prayers to Mary are asking her to intercede for us
- Thread starter Bonnie
- Start date
--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
pilgrim
Well-known member
Since when is "a" a Biblical word?Go to M-W to define biblical words. Thats gonna work well.
One of the verses in question;
2Cor 1:22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
A.T. Robertson- Word Pictures in the New Testament;
"The earnest of the Spirit (τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος). . In N.T. only here; 2Cor 5:5; Eph 1:14. It is part payment on the total obligation and we use the very expression today, "earnest money." It is God, says Paul, who has done all this for us and God is Paul's pledge that he is sincere. He will come to Corinth in due time. This earnest of the Spirit in our hearts is the witness of the Spirit that we are God's."
Some translations say pledge, some say earnest others say guarantee. Its a partial payment to be paid in full when our redemption is complete. When you put down earnest money on a house, the house is yours but you don't live in it yet. One day you will. Same thing. We are Gods possession now because we have been ransomed, bought with a price. This is what it means. Mary being a sure pledge is simply blasphemy. One more way catholicism steals the glory from God.
A new day
Super Member
Word salad.
Nondenom40
Well-known member
You were arguing for the pledge in general being an open ended thing. Could refer to anyone. Its not what the verse means. Mary is not our pledge. You got the entire context wrong.
Bonnie
Super Member
This is the inescapable conclusion. They must want another pledge, just in case the HS isn't enough. Or somehow, doesn't work out, eh?
pilgrim
Well-known member
I was arguing a poster's use of "a" and "the".
"The" is exclusive.
"A" is one of many.
She was confusing the two.
organgrinder
Well-known member
The point is why were you nitpicking. Must have been a reason.
Bonnie
Super Member
It is called a "diversionary tactic"--something you and I are all too familiar with, in our years on the Mormon board!
organgrinder
Well-known member
Yup!It is called a "diversionary tactic"--something you and I are all too familiar with, in our years on the Mormon board!
pilgrim
Well-known member
No, it is called someone changing the meaning of words in order to make a (invalid) point.It is called a "diversionary tactic"--something you and I are all too familiar with, in our years on the Mormon board!
And then when caught call it "diversion".
organgrinder
Well-known member
You diverted from actually dealing with the point of the post. You do this nearly every time.
Bonnie
Super Member
No one changed the meaning of anything. And what we have written here ARE valid points. But what you did IS a diversionary tactic.
Now, how many "sure pledges" do we need to have from God? Can anyone top God Himself, the Holy Spirit, as a "sure pledge"? Does Scripture tell us of a second "sure pledge"?
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pilgrim
Well-known member
It is not diversion to point out a relevant fact.
organgrinder
Well-known member
A miniscule fact I guess is more important to you in diverting than actually addressing the point Bonnie was making. Who knew?!!!
pilgrim
Well-known member
Where in that prayer did it say "sure deposit of faith"?
I read it. It doesn't.
Bonnie
Super Member
I goofed; I meant a sure pledge of our salvation. I was thinking of that other thread and conflated "deposit of faith" with "sure pledge." I will change my post on this one. Thanks for pointing out my error. The two words are similar in meaning though, in this context.
Bonnie
Super Member
But how many "pledges" of our salvation do we need? HOW can a mere human like Mary be a "pledge" of our salvation? HOW can anyone top GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF as a pledge of our salvation?
Bonnie
Super Member
It isn't relevant. HOW many pledges for our salvation do we need? Can anyone be a better pledge of our salvation than GOD HIMSELF, the HOLY SPIRIT? Is Mary mightier than God? Can she do what God cannot? IF you say "no" to the last two questions, then we don't need Mary to be a pledge of our salvation--do we? NOT when we have God HIMSELF as that pledge!
Nondenom40
Well-known member
Especially since the pledge spoken of in the n.t. is a down payment for something purchased. A guarantee by God that what he has purchased will one day be delivered. Our final glorification in heaven. Can Mary pledge that? If catholics think she can then she is god. Or a goddess.
Bonnie
Super Member
Good point! God purchased us by the blood of His one and Only Son. We get the "down payment" so to speak, on that purchase that guarantees us eternal life in heaven after death with the indwelling HS. Can Mary deliver on that guarantee?