Mary as Aeiparthenos; why?

Why is it extraordinary? Because you say so? The HS can come to someone whenever and however He pleases--before or after water Baptism. Water Baptism was certainly not a moral or physical impossibility for them, since they were water baptized after the HS came to them.

My point is that Baptism is not the only way to come to faith--Cornelius et. al. shows us this--but it also comes through the hearing--or reading--of the word of Christ, which is the Gospel message. Again, this is how Cornelius came to faith in Jesus Christ--through hearing the Gospel message from Peter.
that is only my way of describing it because is it not ordinary (water and spirit). one can also say 'exemptional' which is what happened to cornelius and household. they received the holy spirit, thus were saved, before the reception of the sacrament. since water is available, i am quite sure that if offered the sacrament of baptism before the holy spirit descended on them, cornelius and household would without question undergo the reception of the sacrament. I am not saying the Holy Spirit will not descend on anybody without the reception of the sacrament, but in many instances, the standard pattern is the sacrament of baptism for the reception of the holy spirit.
 
yes, I can - it's not a biblical fact. there are others - you should have searched for yourself.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.


eph 5.26 kjv - That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

what is the Living Water?
i did not see that. thanks for mentioning 1 Peter 1: 23.

The verse in 1 peter and the verse in John 3 complement each other. the proof is in the second verse you mentioned, eph 5:26. we are sanctified and cleanse of water (sacrament of baptism) by the word (seed of God, gen3:15). would we agree that the new birth is the word being implanted earlier before the reception of the sacrament?
 
that is only my way of describing it because is it not ordinary (water and spirit). one can also say 'exemptional' which is what happened to cornelius and household. they received the holy spirit, thus were saved, before the reception of the sacrament. since water is available, i am quite sure that if offered the sacrament of baptism before the holy spirit descended on them, cornelius and household would without question undergo the reception of the sacrament. I am not saying the Holy Spirit will not descend on anybody without the reception of the sacrament, but in many instances, the standard pattern is the sacrament of baptism for the reception of the holy spirit.
water baptism is the false teaching of the rcc. in Acts 2 there were several thousand - done God's way. the rcc way is not God's way. the rebirth does not happen outside of God's way - it doesn't happen except by Him. He does not bow to the false teachings of the rcc - or to your pope.
 
water baptism is the false teaching of the rcc. in Acts 2 there were several thousand - done God's way. the rcc way is not God's way. the rebirth does not happen outside of God's way - it doesn't happen except by Him. He does not bow to the false teachings of the rcc - or to your pope.
and when they heard everything Peter said, the crowd asked him what they will do. Peter's answer.. 38 Repent, Peter said to them, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, to have your sins forgiven; then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
i did not see that. thanks for mentioning 1 Peter 1: 23.

The verse in 1 peter and the verse in John 3 complement each other. the proof is in the second verse you mentioned, eph 5:26.
there's more than those 2 verses. why don't you learn to search scripture for yourself?

we are sanctified and cleanse of water (sacrament of baptism) by the word (seed of God, gen3:15).
catholics aren't 'cleansed by the word'. they don't know His word.

can you produce a verse that says 'cleansed by the word / rules of the rcc' ?

another catholic rewriting HIS word!

would we agree that the new birth is the word being implanted earlier before the reception of the sacrament?
are you claiming that catholic babies know, understand and believe His word prior to water baptism?

or that adult catholics here who were water baptized long ago were implanted with His word prior to that baptism and still don't even know or understand the basics of it?

why do you put words of men above those of God? your faith is in the rcc, not in Christ and His sacrifice.
 
and when they heard everything Peter said, the crowd asked him what they will do. Peter's answer.. 38 Repent, Peter said to them, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, to have your sins forgiven; then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
does Acts 2 in your bible start with verse 38? as usual for catholics, you've pulled a verse out of context. that's all catholics can do because it is what the rcc teaches you to do.

those people already believed!
 
does Acts 2 in your bible start with verse 38? as usual for catholics, you've pulled a verse out of context. that's all catholics can do because it is what the rcc teaches you to do.

those people already believed!
it was only after peter indicted them for their part in the crucifixion of the messiah that they felt guilty and asked peter what they should do.
 
there's more than those 2 verses. why don't you learn to search scripture for yourself?
if there is a third verse (born anew/born again) why not post it, thanks.
catholics aren't 'cleansed by the word'. they don't know His word.

can you produce a verse that says 'cleansed by the word / rules of the rcc' ?

another catholic rewriting HIS word!
read again what i wrote.
the word refers to the seed of God (see Gen3:5)
are you claiming that catholic babies know, understand and believe His word prior to water baptism?

or that adult catholics here who were water baptized long ago were implanted with His word prior to that baptism and still don't even know or understand the basics of it?

why do you put words of men above those of God? your faith is in the rcc, not in Christ and His sacrifice.
infants are baptized on the faith of the church as expressed by the parents.

when the child grows up, they are catechized especially if they go to a catholic school. you are correct that majority of catholics do not know their catholic faith and the reason they are easily attracted by other faiths.

we do not put the words of men above the bible. that is a wrong perception.
 
What exactly does the dogma of Mary, the mother of Jesus, as "ever-virgin" accomplish? What exactly is the Rcc trying to advance with this demand on its laity to embrace and further declare and deny Mary had other children? To what end?
And like many of the Marian verbiage of the Roman Catholic Church, they have twisted this term "ever-virgin" beyond what the term originally meant, which simply meant that Mary had always been a virgin up to the birth of Jesus. Early Catholics then adopted the term to refer to Mary being a perpetual virgin in order to support their unbiblical dogma.
 
mica said:
so? it was before their water baptism that they believed.. read verses prior to 38.
yes, it was before.

are you referring to mary as the 'new eve'
where do I mention Eve? is Eve mentioned in verses of Acts 2? how about Mary?

where did I refer to Mary? is that how you come up with rcc teachings in scripture - by making something out of nothing?
 
where do I mention Eve? is Eve mentioned in verses of Acts 2? how about Mary?

where did I refer to Mary? is that how you come up with rcc teachings in scripture - by making something out of nothing?
forget about my mentioning mary, i got distracted. sorry.

yes, it was before being water baptizes that cornelius and household believed before undergoing the sacrament of baptism. God allowed them to share in the blessings of salvation normally associated with the sacrament of baptism. However, Peter insisted that they undergo the sacrament of baptism which is normally with the use of water.
 
forget about my mentioning mary, i got distracted. sorry.

yes, it was before being water baptizes that cornelius and household believed before undergoing the sacrament of baptism. God allowed them to share in the blessings of salvation normally associated with the sacrament of baptism. However, Peter insisted that they undergo the sacrament of baptism which is normally with the use of water.
yes, they believed and were saved without water baptism. that is when God changes their heart. water baptism does nothing for unbelievers except get them wet, no one's heart is changed by God in it.
 
yes, they believed and were saved without water baptism. that is when God changes their heart. water baptism does nothing for unbelievers except get them wet, no one's heart is changed by God in it.
There are many evidences in the NT that baptism saves, baptism takes away sins,... but it is in John,s gospel that Jesus himself says that unless one is born again one cannot enter heaven. From the earliest times, the church refers to this passage as referring to the sacrament of baptism and the understanding is unanimous down through the ages.
 
There are many evidences in the NT that baptism saves, baptism takes away sins,... but it is in John,s gospel that Jesus himself says that unless one is born again one cannot enter heaven. From the earliest times, the church refers to this passage as referring to the sacrament of baptism and the understanding is unanimous down through the ages.
the Catholic error is thinking becoming born again happens at baptism
 
the Catholic error is thinking becoming born again happens at baptism
Here are the historical evidences. Where are yours?
Justin Martyr
Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father… and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (First Apology61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5] (Fragments of the Lost Writings 34 [inter A.D. 175-185]).
Clement of Rome
But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: “Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Cyprian

[l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).
 
Here are the historical evidences. Where are yours?
Justin Martyr
Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father… and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (First Apology61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5] (Fragments of the Lost Writings 34 [inter A.D. 175-185]).
Clement of Rome
But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: “Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Cyprian

[l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).
they sound very catholic (but not christian). those must be some of your 'founding fathers of catholicism' but not of Christianity.
 
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