Mary, the Saints and the Scriptures

ziapueblo

Active member
I have been reading the posts in the Catholic thread about the veneration (not worship) of Mary. When it comes to the veneration of Mary, the Saints even relics or places, whether in the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, by non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians, I feel that it goes deeper than just Mary and the Saints. Is it that we Orthodox believe in, and practice, things that are not explicitly stated in the Bible?

Thanks,
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I have been reading the posts in the Catholic thread about the veneration (not worship) of Mary. When it comes to the veneration of Mary, the Saints even relics or places, whether in the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, by non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians
And it's been absolutely clear to Non-Catholics that "Veneration" is nothing but a "Weasel word" to mask the FACT that the Catholic Mary thing (and to a lesser degree the Orthodox Theotokos) IS DEFINITLY WORSHIPPED - more prominently in the Roman system than Jesus is.
, I feel that it goes deeper than just Mary and the Saints.
MUCH DEEPER!!! Roman Catholics have created their own phony "Rituals", "Sacraments", and "Salvation by WORKS" theology which makes Christ of NO EFFECT in their religious system. ROman Catholicism is a rancid mixture of Pagan practices and images, that FEW find their way out of and into TRUTH.
Is it that we Orthodox believe in, and practice, things that are not explicitly stated in the Bible?
And obviously Things that Catholics in GENERAL have adapted into their "Worship" from PAGANS.
 

ziapueblo

Active member
And it's been absolutely clear to Non-Catholics that "Veneration" is nothing but a "Weasel word" to mask the FACT that the Catholic Mary thing (and to a lesser degree the Orthodox Theotokos) IS DEFINITLY WORSHIPPED - more prominently in the Roman system than Jesus is.
I can understand how the veneration of Mary and the Saints can seem to be "worship" to a non-Orthodox Christian. Worship of an icon is a grave sin in the Orthodox Church. When you walk into the narthex of my Orthodox Church you see an icon of Christ, the Theotokos, our patron saint, Saint George, and some others. The nave is full of icons of saints, we have a beautiful mosaic icon of Pentecost at the back of the nave. Christ Pantocrator looks down on you and then the iconostasis, icon screen, separates the nave from the sanctuary. I'm know, as during our Greek festival I give tours of our Church (I have no Greek ancestry by the way), it can be an overwhelming experience for some.

I can assure you, that it definitely is not worship. I liken it to pictures of family and friends at ones house. We have pictures of loved ones as a reminder of memories we shared with them. It reminds us of the love we have for those who are not longer with use, either because of death or distance. This is what icons do. They remind us of those who have gone before us, fought the good fight, finished the race, and are now in Heaven with our God.

created their own phony "Rituals", "Sacraments", and "Salvation by WORKS" theology which makes Christ of NO EFFECT in their religious system.
We Orthodox share a close, spiritual history with our Catholic brethren. What "Rituals" do you speak of?

Orthodox as the Roman Catholic Church, share the same belief in the Sacraments, although we use the term Holy Mysteries. You do not see this as Scriptural or a part of Christian history?

And obviously Things that Catholics in GENERAL have adapted into their "Worship" from PAGANS.
So this is the root of my question, that what Orthodox believe in or practice, whether it be veneration of the Saints, the Sacraments or worship, is not Biblical?

Thanks,
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
And it's been absolutely clear to Non-Catholics that "Veneration" is nothing but a "Weasel word" to mask the FACT that the Catholic Mary thing (and to a lesser degree the Orthodox Theotokos) IS DEFINITLY WORSHIPPED - more prominently in the Roman system than Jesus is.

MUCH DEEPER!!! Roman Catholics have created their own phony "Rituals", "Sacraments", and "Salvation by WORKS" theology which makes Christ of NO EFFECT in their religious system. ROman Catholicism is a rancid mixture of Pagan practices and images, that FEW find their way out of and into TRUTH.

And obviously Things that Catholics in GENERAL have adapted into their "Worship" from PAGANS.

Amen and Amen.
 

Septextura

Well-known member
In practice Mary is worshipped as a deity above Christ. On paper it's all padded out to be orthodox-ish. Don't trust a single word from RCC and EO/OO apologists. People who delude themselves have no problem deluding you as well.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Well, I'm a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian and again, can assure you that we DO NOT worship Mary. I'm curious, have you ever attended the Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Vespers? Other prayer services?
I don't bother with Roman Catholics, and I wouldn't even know where to find an "Orthodox Church" here in Dallas. I have no interest in 'em.

What do YOU think "Worship" is??

A few examples Mat 8:2 - 9:18 - 14:33 - 15:25.
 

Theophilos

Active member
All of creation rejoices in you, O full of grace,
the ranks of Angels and the human race;
hallowed Temple and spiritual Paradise, glory of Virgins;
from you God was incarnate,
and He, who is our God before the ages, became a little child.
for He made your body a throne
and made your womb more spacious than the heavens.
All of creation rejoices in you, O full of grace;
glory to you!
--Liturgy of the Saint Basil the Great

Here are bible references that show that Mary is the mystical ark of the covenant. God was truly present in her body, which is a profound mystery.

Luke is clear that Mary is the Theotokos, the God-bearer:
But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Luke 1:43

Revelation juxtaposes the heavenly ark of the convent with a woman clothed with the sun:
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. Revelation 11:19 - 12:1

Mary's journey to Elisabeth parallels the ark staying with David in 2 Samuel 6:2-15 and 1 Chronicles 13:6-14:
Scriptural References to the Theotokos as the Ark of the Covenant | St. Nektarios Orthodox Church of Lenoir City, TN (stnektariosroc.org)



 

ziapueblo

Active member
So "worship" to you is a piece of bread, and a drop of wine.
The climax of the Divine Liturgy is the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of our Lord. Worship consists of the Divine Liturgy as well as the Liturgical life of the Church, which is prayer, praise and glorifying God.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
The climax of the Divine Liturgy is the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of our Lord. Worship consists of the Divine Liturgy as well as the Liturgical life of the Church, which is prayer, praise and glorifying God.
O.K. - A piece of bread, a drop of wine (ROman Catholics don't give any wine - the bread is "Sufficient" - and cheaper), and some rituals.
 

ziapueblo

Active member
O.K. - A piece of bread, a drop of wine
Nope. The Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Many of Jesus' own followers left because they did could not comprehend the teaching, John 6, "66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, 'Do you also want to go away?' 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

The Eucharist is hard to grasp for many. It takes faith ☦️
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Nope. The Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Many of Jesus' own followers left because they did could not comprehend the teaching, John 6, "66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, 'Do you also want to go away?' 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

The Eucharist is hard to grasp for many. It takes faith ☦️
It takes imagination -
 

ziapueblo

Active member
It takes imagination -
Well, not according to St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 10:16-17, "16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion (koinōnia; κοινωνία) of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion (koinōnia; κοινωνία) of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread." Koinōnia means fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse. What must the cup and the bread be to make possible this participation in the blood and body of Christ? The most obvious and logical answer is that the bread and cup of wine must really be the body and blood of Christ.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Well, not according to St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 10:16-17, "16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion (koinōnia; κοινωνία) of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion (koinōnia; κοινωνία) of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread." Koinōnia means fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse. What must the cup and the bread be to make possible this participation in the blood and body of Christ? The most obvious and logical answer is that the bread and cup of wine must really be the body and blood of Christ.
Except, of course that it ISN'T. It's an ORDINANCE - not a "Sacrament". BUT HEY - if you wan't to think it's "Magic" go ahead. Just make sure that you're BORN AGAIN of the Holy Spirit, since THAT'S the only thing that's REALLY important.
 
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