Mary, the Saints and the Scriptures

ziapueblo

Active member

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
One of the Sacraments of Initiation as a matter of fact. Can you prove that it is merely an "ordinance"?
To you?? Nah you've been well propagandized by your religious system, and naturally you'll have an answer to everything.
I'm born again the Bible way!
I hope so, but Catholics typically aren't, and know little or nothing of the New Birth in the Holy SPirit - thinking they have to EARN salvation by their "Works". That they think Paedobaptism does anything other than wetting the baby's head is an indication of their IGNORANCE.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
And I could say the same for you, could I not? We understand Scripture in the tradition, that's right, the tradition, the we were taught.
WHich is in many respects, inaccurate, and laced with Paganism.
Born of water and Spirit!
Except the "Water" in that verse has nothing to do with "Baptism", and everything to do with being born naturally. READ THE CONTEXT OF THE PASSAGE!!!!
 

ziapueblo

Active member
READ THE CONTEXT OF THE PASSAGE!!!!
I have, many times, not only during my personal reading of Scripture but every year in our lectionary.

You say:
Except the "Water" in that verse has nothing to do with "Baptism", and everything to do with being born naturally.
There is a problem with your interpretation of the passage (I'm sure you know John 3 like the back of your hand but for the purpose of this discussion I am referencing the text). Our Lord says to Nicodemus, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus assumes that Jesus is speaking of a natural birth and asks, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Our Lord answers him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

You mention that the "water" has "everything to do with being born naturally." I think you are stretching the context just a smidgen. Let's look at the surrounding texts from Johns Gospel:

First, lets look at Jesus' baptism in the Jordan (John 1:31-34). Compare His baptism with the parallel passage from the Gospel according to Saint Matthew, 3:16. "The heavens were opened" and the Spirit descended upon Him. Jesus had no need for baptism, Saint John the Forerunner (Baptist), himself, states he needed to be baptized by Jesus. Jesus was baptized in order to "fulfill all righteousness" and "to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins"; Matthew 3:15 & Luke 1:77. Jesus showed us that the Heavens would be open to us that the Holy Spirit would descend upon us, through baptism.

Second, Jesus' first miracle at the Wedding at Cana (John 2:1-11), He changed the water into wine. Jesus used water from "six stone jars . . . for the Jewish rites of purification." In the Septuagint and the New Testament, these purification waters are called . . . baptismoi. Look at the LXX Numbers 19:9-19 and Mark 7:4. Hebrews 10:1 tells us that the Old Testament was "a shadow of the good things to come." It is likely that the "six stone jars" are mentioned to indicate imperfection, or a "human number" (Revelation 13:18). What is pretty spectacular is that Jesus turns these Old Testament baptismal waters into wine, a symbol of New Covenant perfection as seen in Joel 3:18 and Matthew 9:17.

Thirdly, right after Jesus' "born again" dialogue with Nicodemus, what is done? Verse 22, "After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized." No other place in Scripture do we find Jesus, apparently baptizing!

Finally, at the beginning of chapter 4 of Johns Gospel, " 1 Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), 3 he left Judea and departed again to Galilee." At Jesus' command, His disciples go and baptize.

I of course did not make any of this up.
 

ziapueblo

Active member
AND that's the Key - JEsus isn't talking about "Water Baptism" at all, the entire passage is a discussion of the NATURAL vs the SPIRITUAL.
Do you have any historical evidence, lets say from the Early Church, that this is what is to be interpreted?
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Do you have any historical evidence, lets say from the Early Church, that this is what is to be interpreted?
JUST READ IT without your Catholic glasses on. IT'S THE BIBLE!!! And in plain English it presents the message and the CONTEXT to understand it.

Nicodemus comes to Jesus, and Jesus tells Him what the difference between HIS ministry, and Nicodemus' ministry is. Nicodemus is moving in the FLESH, and Jesus is moving in the Spirit, and Jesus let's him know that he's not even able to SEE the "Kingdom of God" in his natural state.
 

e v e

Super Member
All of creation rejoices in you, O full of grace,
the ranks of Angels and the human race;
hallowed Temple and spiritual Paradise, glory of Virgins;
from you God was incarnate,
and He, who is our God before the ages, became a little child.
for He made your body a throne
and made your womb more spacious than the heavens.
All of creation rejoices in you, O full of grace;
glory to you!
--Liturgy of the Saint Basil the Great

Here are bible references that show that Mary is the mystical ark of the covenant. God was truly present in her body, which is a profound mystery.

Luke is clear that Mary is the Theotokos, the God-bearer:
But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Luke 1:43

Revelation juxtaposes the heavenly ark of the convent with a woman clothed with the sun:
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. Revelation 11:19 - 12:1

Mary's journey to Elisabeth parallels the ark staying with David in 2 Samuel 6:2-15 and 1 Chronicles 13:6-14:
Scriptural References to the Theotokos as the Ark of the Covenant | St. Nektarios Orthodox Church of Lenoir City, TN (stnektariosroc.org)



thats not Mary.
 

ziapueblo

Active member
JUST READ IT without your Catholic glasses on.
I'm not reading with Catholic glasses on. I'm reading the Scriptures in the context of the early Church Fathers and the Liturgical Tradition of the Orthodox Church.

IT'S THE BIBLE!!! And in plain English it presents the message and the CONTEXT to understand it.
Is the Bible really present itself in a way that is easily understood? I think not. How many different interpretations of Scripture are there, with every single person saying exactly what you say?

Again, when Jesus says "water and Spirit" and immediately after this discourse, He and His disciples go and baptize. You don't see a connection there?
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I'm not reading with Catholic glasses on. I'm reading the Scriptures in the context of the early Church Fathers and the Liturgical Tradition of the Orthodox Church.
TRanslation: "reading with Catholic glasses on".
Again, when Jesus says "water and Spirit" and immediately after this discourse, He and His disciples go and baptize. You don't see a connection there?
No connection.
 

ziapueblo

Active member
TRanslation: "reading with Catholic glasses on".
This is actually, "reading with Orthodox glasses on."

No connection.
As my grandmother used to say, "whatever you think is fine with you."

Jesus: To see the Kingdom of Heaven one must be born again. (verse 3)
Nicodemus: What, am I supposed to go back into my mothers womb? (verse 4)
Jesus: "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (verse 5) Then later in the the chapter Jesus and His disciples baptize.

Jesus saying one must be "born again" and then Jesus correcting Nicodemus, "unless one is born of water and Spirit . . . " makes no connection to you?

I'll stick to 2,000 years of teaching that water and baptism are connected.
 
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