MAT: Mormon Apologetics Tactics

Theo1689

Well-known member
It is well-known that Mormons reject the Bible. They don't believe it is God's word, but they find it useful to exploit it when trying to convert Christians to Mormonism, since Christians believe the Bible. So they will quote a handful of verses that they think are "Mormon-friendly" (Amos 3:7, James 2:24, 1 Cor. 15:29, etc.)

Mormons here exploit and abuse the Bible, not so much to defend Mormonism, but instead to try to attack Christianity.

But it is evident that they reject the Bible, because all discussion turns into an "our verses" vs. "their verses", with both sides talking past each other, and not addressing the other's passages.

For instance, regarding "faith alone", Mormons will quote James 2:24 over and over (which we have addressed repeatedly), and we will quote Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.). But Mormons will NEVER address those passages. So that means that either they reject those passages, and believe they are not God's word, or else they know that those passages contradict Mormonism, and they don't want to admit it.

Another example is when they try to defend their belief in "plural gods", by quoting a verse about IDOLS (1 Cor. 8:5), or about unjust sinning judges (Ps. 82:6), and they IGNORE Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 43:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc.). They will NEVER address these passages, as it is CLEAR that they contradict and refute Mormonism. But they won't admit that it's okay to reject them, because they believe it's not actual Bible, because such a response doesn't sit well with the Christians they're trying to proselytize.

I just wish Mormons would be honest about why they do what they do.
Why do they constantly ignore all the passages that they do?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
For instance, regarding "faith alone", Mormons will quote James 2:24....
Well--is there something about James2:24--which you disagree with?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
That was not a response to a question--but this statement:



Could you explain to us--how that is so--seeing the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church?

Can you stop dodging my questions and may Bible verses and instead ANSWER them?

The fact that you constantly refuse to address ALL the Bible passages which contradict your false theology IS proof that you reject the Bible.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Well--is there something about James2:24--which you disagree with?

<sigh>

For the 487th time....

I don't disagree with ANYTHING about any verse of the Bible.

I simply disagree with YOUR MISINTERPRETATION of that verse.

You don't seem to understand the difference.

And your misinterpretation of that verse is contradictory to Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc., which you constantly RUN AWAY from, proving that you hate, and don't believe, the Bible.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Another example is when they try to defend their belief in "plural gods", by quoting a verse about IDOLS (1 Cor. 8:5),
So--is this a reference to idols?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
For the 487th time....

I don't disagree with ANYTHING about any verse of the Bible.
Good--then you have no problem with this one?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Theo1689 said:
Another example is when they try to defend their belief in "plural gods", by quoting a verse about IDOLS (1 Cor. 8:5),
So--is this a reference to idols?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Thank you for demonstrating your difficulty in reading comprehension.

The one about "idols" is 1 Cor. 8:5 (check my original quote), not Ps. 82.
Ps. 82 is about the unjust judges.
Please try to pay attention, okay?

And since you want to try to perpetuate the Mormon lie about "plural gods", let's just remind our readers what the Bible ACTUALLY teaches (and don't worry, folks, this poster will simply IGNORE these passages, like he ALWAYS does):

Anyone who can say "There are obviously three Gods" has either (1) never read the Bible, or else (2) rejects the Bible.

Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else besides him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deut. 32:39   See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Chr. 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


And not to mention that the Book of Mormon also teaches that only one god exists, contradicting Mormon theology:

Alma 11:27-29
Alma 11:44
Alma 14:5
Moses 1:6
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Thank you for demonstrating your difficulty in reading comprehension.

The one about "idols" is 1 Cor. 8:5 (check my original quote), not Ps. 82.
Ps. 82 is about the unjust judges.
And those judges just happen to sit on the divine council--as gods?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Theo--God the Son is a Judge also.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo--God the Son is a Judge also.

You simply show over and over again that you have no clue what the Bible teaches:

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:
Theo--God the Son is a Judge also.

You simply show over and over again that you have no clue what the Bible teaches:

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

What is your point?

Acts 10:42----King James Version
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What is your point?

Acts 10:42----King James Version
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Where does that verse say, "Jesus"?
It is referring to the Father.
It can't be referring to the Son, because of the verse I quoted, and which .... (Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?) RAN AWAY FROM:

You simply show over and over again that you have no clue what the Bible teaches:

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

What is your point?

I already told you, but you ignored it.

Here is the answer to that question again:

"You simply show over and over again that you have no clue what the Bible teaches"
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:
What is your point?

Acts 10:42----King James Version
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Where does that verse say, "Jesus"?

Who do you believe is ordained of God to be Judge over the quick and dead?

Acts 10:38-42--King James Version
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Acts 10:42----King James Version
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Theo1689 said:
Where does that verse say, "Jesus"?

Who do you believe is ordained of God to be Judge over the quick and dead?

Why do you keep DODGING my question, and detracting with DIFFERENT questions?

I guess we can conclude that it DOESN'T say "Jesus" and your interpretation is wrong.
Thank you for that admission.

Acts 10:38-42--King James Version
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

In verse 38, "God" is listed as distinct from "Jesus", which means that "God" is referring to the FATHER.

So when "God" appears again in verse 42, it must ALSO refer to the same person, the Father.

Thank you for admitting that you're wrong! :)
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do you keep DODGING my question, and detracting with DIFFERENT questions?

I guess we can conclude that it DOESN'T say "Jesus" and your interpretation is wrong.
It does say Jesus:

Acts 10:38-42--King James Version
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

So--who do you feel is the Judge over the quick and dead, if it isn't Jesus.

You know, Theo--the more I converse with you and others here--the more I'm convince that the Bible just isn't believed by the critics here.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Who do you believe is ordained of God to be Judge over the quick and dead?

Acts 10:38-42--King James Version
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Jesus' purpose in coming into the world was not to judge and condemn us, but to save us. Certainly He will ju
And those judges just happen to sit on the divine council--as gods?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Theo--God the Son is a Judge also.
These gods are so called gods, human judges who judge the people in God's stead. They are even called that in a few places, in the LoM. But it is evident from the context, that corrupt human judges are meant, for they favor the wicked, and do not uphold the widow and fatherless. God remix d's them, through Asaph, that they will "die like men, and fall like any prince."

IF these gods are actual deities, then that would pose problems for those who want to believe that:
1. The entire biblical witness proclaim that there tnere is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. God Himself says no God came before Him, and none will be formed after Him.
2. IF these gods are actual deities, then why are they judging unjustly and favoring the wicked? Wouldn't that make them sinners--limke Satan and his demons?
3. Where would people find these gods, when judgments between people were needed? How would people contact them?

However, the idea that these gods in Ps. 82 are human judges with the power to judge in God's name best fits the context. Judges did exist in Israel, and I am not talking about the judges that ruled prior to having kings, But judges that rendered judgments in both civil and criminal cases.

Isaiah is especially rife with references to corruption among judges and rulers in Jerusalem. I posted some passages ing the old boards. But here they are again:

Here we go, from Isaiah 1, NASB:

Zion Corrupted, to Be Redeemed

21 How the faithful city has become a harlot,
She who was full of justice!
Righteousness once lodged in her,
But now murderers.
22 Your silver has become dross,
Your drink diluted with water.
23 Your rulers are rebels
And companions of thieves;
Everyone loves a bribe
And chases after rewards.
They do not [h]defend the orphan,
Nor does the widow’s plea come before them.


(The language here is similar in tone to Ps. 82.)

Here is more from Isaiah 3:

God Will Judge

13 The Lord arises to contend,
And stands to judge the people.
14 The Lord enters into judgment with the elders and princes of His people,

“It is you who have devoured the vineyard;
The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
15 “What do you mean by crushing My people
And grinding the face of the poor?”
Declares the Lord God of hosts.

(Again, note the similarity to Ps. 82. Especially the bolded verses.)

From Isaiah 5:

21Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
And clever in their own sight!
22 Woe to those who are heroes in drinking wine
And valiant men in mixing strong drink,
23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe,
And take away the rights of the ones who are in the right!​


and one more, from Isaiah 10:

Woe to those who enact evil statutes
And to those who constantly record [a]unjust decisions,
2 So as to deprive the needy of justice
And rob the poor of My people of their rights,
So that widows may be their spoil
And that they may plunder the [c]orphans.
3 Now what will you do in the day of punishment,
And in the devastation which will come from afar?


Especially look at Is. 3:13-14. The language there is very, very similar to what is in Ps. 82. So in context, and, since the rest of the Bible affirms there is only one true God, these "gods" must NOT be actual deities but so-called gods--corrupt human judges, who are supposed to be judging righteously, but instead, were favoring the wicked and NOT upholding the helpless.

(DO note that I quoted the Bible extensively).
 
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