Matt 7:19

[Theo1689]

Here is an interesting passage for KJV-Onlys to try to defend.
I'm sure they'll defend it like gangbusters, with all the certainty that it is allegedly trivial to do so.
All the more amusing!

Mark 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (KJV)

Mark 7:19 ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν, ἀλλ’ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν· καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται, καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... purging all meats? (KJV)
Mark 7:19 ... καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (ESV)
Mark 7:19 ... (This means all foods are clean.) (NET)
Mark 7:19 ... (Thus He declared all foods clean.) (NASB)
Mark 7:19 ... (As a result, He made all foods clean.) (HCSB)
Mark 7:19 ... (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) (NIV)
Mark 7:19 ... thus purifying all foods?” (NKJV)


So we have a couple of errors in the KJV...
The first is "meats".
"βρωματα" doesn't mean "meats". It means "foods".
The Greek word for "meats" is "κρεας" (cf. Rom. 14:21, 1 Cor. 8:13; the KJV translates it "flesh").
This is somewhat of a minor quibble, although still significant, IMO.

The second one is "purging".
"καθαριζον" doesn't mean "purging", it means "cleaning".
The Greek word for "purge" is "διακαθαιρω" (cf. Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17)

Even the NKJV got it right, for goodness' sake!

 

[Theo1689]

Here is an interesting passage for KJV-Onlys to try to defend.
I'm sure they'll defend it like gangbusters, with all the certainty that it is allegedly trivial to do so.
All the more amusing!

Mark 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (KJV)

Mark 7:19 ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν, ἀλλ’ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν· καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται, καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... purging all meats? (KJV)
Mark 7:19 ... καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (ESV)
Mark 7:19 ... (This means all foods are clean.) (NET)
Mark 7:19 ... (Thus He declared all foods clean.) (NASB)
Mark 7:19 ... (As a result, He made all foods clean.) (HCSB)
Mark 7:19 ... (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) (NIV)
Mark 7:19 ... thus purifying all foods?” (NKJV)


So we have a couple of errors in the KJV...
The first is "meats".
"βρωματα" doesn't mean "meats". It means "foods".
The Greek word for "meats" is "κρεας" (cf. Rom. 14:21, 1 Cor. 8:13; the KJV translates it "flesh").
This is somewhat of a minor quibble, although still significant, IMO.

The second one is "purging".
"καθαριζον" doesn't mean "purging", it means "cleaning".
The Greek word for "purge" is "διακαθαιρω" (cf. Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17)

Even the NKJV got it right, for goodness' sake!

Three days later, and no KJV-Only can defend this error in the KJV.

Only <crickets>...

(Or are we supposed to say "<cicadas>" this year? )

 

[RiJoRi]

(Or are we supposed to say "<cicadas>" this year? )

Don’t matter - my cats like 'em both!

Anyway, I always thought that "purging all [food]" had something to do with "goeth out into the draught"! (Peristaltic action, ya know?) - Glad that's cleaned up!

--Rich

 

[En Hakkore]

Here is an interesting passage for KJV-Onlys to try to defend.
I'm sure they'll defend it like gangbusters, with all the certainty that it is allegedly trivial to do so.
All the more amusing!

Mark 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (KJV)

Mark 7:19 ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν, ἀλλ’ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν· καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται, καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... purging all meats? (KJV)
Mark 7:19 ... καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (ESV)
Mark 7:19 ... (This means all foods are clean.) (NET)
Mark 7:19 ... (Thus He declared all foods clean.) (NASB)
Mark 7:19 ... (As a result, He made all foods clean.) (HCSB)
Mark 7:19 ... (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) (NIV)
Mark 7:19 ... thus purifying all foods?” (NKJV)


So we have a couple of errors in the KJV...
The first is "meats".
"βρωματα" doesn't mean "meats". It means "foods".
The Greek word for "meats" is "κρεας" (cf. Rom. 14:21, 1 Cor. 8:13; the KJV translates it "flesh").
This is somewhat of a minor quibble, although still significant, IMO.

The second one is "purging".
"καθαριζον" doesn't mean "purging", it means "cleaning".
The Greek word for "purge" is "διακαθαιρω" (cf. Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17)

Even the NKJV got it right, for goodness' sake!

OK, I'll bite and play a bit of devil's advocate {} and then steer the conversation into what I think is a significant text-critical issue in the verse that you haven't touched on but is implicit in the other translations you cite except the NKJV. Your KJVO interlocutors may have been confused by the discrepancy between thread title and thread content... it's a minor quibble, but perhaps enough to throw them off.

The KJV translation of "meats" for βρωματα is defensible given the archaic meaning of the English word as a synonym for "food". For example, the word "meat" is found in the KJV of Gen 1:29-30 as the translation of the Hebrew אכלה where the referent is undeniably not the flesh of animals, but rather plant and fruit edibles. I think this point should go to the KJV crowd... the NKJV predictably avoids the archaism by translating βρωματα as "foods" (and "food" in the Genesis passages).

With respect to the second issue, the KJV translation "purging" reflects influence of the Latin --- in the Vulgate, the word is purgans, a form of the verb purgo, which in ecclesiastical Latin means "to purify". The derivative English word no longer carries such a connotation, but arguably did four hundred years ago... once again, the NKJV predictably avoids the archaism and translates with "purifying". I think this point could also go to the KJV crowd...

Having said that, perhaps the points should go to our side after all. The issue you raise with both these translations is an excellent example not of where the KJV errs, but where its archaic language can mislead the contemporary English reader for whom its meanings are no longer known. Now, let's make things more interesting...

The KJV translation reflects, as you note, the word καθαριζον, but the other translations (with the exception of the NKJV, which also relies on the TR) do not. The NA/UBS text here reads καθαριζων --- the difference is a single but very important letter. The first is a neuter (singular) participle, the second is a masculine (singular) participle... the variance is a matter of what (TR) or who (NA/UBS) the agent of cleansing is. In the TR the pertinent clause is an extension of Jesus' rhetorical question and the process of bodily expulsion is the agent that cleanses all food. In the other text tradition (leaving aside for now a third variant found in Bezae), the agent is a person whose identity must be inferred since it is not made explicit... it is generally understood to be Jesus and thus translations that follow the NA/UBS text stop the rhetorical question in the previous clause (notably against the placement of the question mark in both critical texts, though check out the conjectured emendation in the apparatus) and treat the pertinent clause as a parenthetical comment of Jesus cleansing all foods (one of your translations reworks the clause so as to omit any active subject). This is no simple variant and has some potential theological implications...

Which of the two reflects the earliest-recoverable form of the text and why? Discuss...

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[CES1951]

delete

 

[CES1951]

The second one is "purging".
"καθαριζον" doesn't mean "purging", it means "cleaning".

Don't see a big difference. Much ado about nothing:

What does purge mean?

Definition of purge in the Definitions.net dictionary. Meaning of purge. What does purge mean? Information and translations of purge in the most comprehensive dictionary definitions resource on the web.

www.definitions.net

purge, purging

an act of removing by cleansing

 

[En Hakkore]

Which of the two reflects the earliest-recoverable form of the text and why? Discuss...

Who summoned the crickets?

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[robycop3]

Like the Model T, the KJV was great for its time, but that time is past. We need God's word in OUR language, with words & phraseology understood by the great majority of readers/hearers.

 

[CES1951]

^^^^ So...you didn't know that "purge" meant "cleanse" either? You should work on your vocabulary!

 

[RiJoRi]

^^^^ So...you didn't know that "purge" meant "cleanse" either? You should work on your vocabulary!

That holpeneth nott ye moderne reader. Not even changing "draught" to "toilet" -- for the drinkers of "draught beer" -- does much:
"Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the toilet, cleansing all meats?"

Yuck! and Gross!!

--Rich

 

[T-bird1971]

Here is an interesting passage for KJV-Onlys to try to defend.
I'm sure they'll defend it like gangbusters, with all the certainty that it is allegedly trivial to do so.
All the more amusing!

Mark 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (KJV)

Mark 7:19 ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν, ἀλλ’ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν· καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται, καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... purging all meats? (KJV)
Mark 7:19 ... καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (ESV)
Mark 7:19 ... (This means all foods are clean.) (NET)
Mark 7:19 ... (Thus He declared all foods clean.) (NASB)
Mark 7:19 ... (As a result, He made all foods clean.) (HCSB)
Mark 7:19 ... (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) (NIV)
Mark 7:19 ... thus purifying all foods?” (NKJV)


So we have a couple of errors in the KJV...
The first is "meats".
"βρωματα" doesn't mean "meats". It means "foods".
The Greek word for "meats" is "κρεας" (cf. Rom. 14:21, 1 Cor. 8:13; the KJV translates it "flesh").
This is somewhat of a minor quibble, although still significant, IMO.

The second one is "purging".
"καθαριζον" doesn't mean "purging", it means "cleaning".
The Greek word for "purge" is "διακαθαιρω" (cf. Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17)

Even the NKJV got it right, for goodness' sake!

From Strongs:

G2513: to cleanse (literally of figuratively); (make) clean (-se), purge, purify .... translated as "purge" x 3 in the KJV

G977: food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonial) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law: - meat, victuals

"Purge" and "cleanse" are often synonymous, and meats of various sorts were the most common foods forbidden by Jewish law.

I'll review Zodhiates when I get home, but your argument is moot.

 

[Theo1689]

^^^^ So...you didn't know that "purge" meant "cleanse" either? You should work on your vocabulary!

I see... So you have to REDEFINE terms to make the KJV "correct"?
Don't you understand that his is proof that the KJV is ERRANT?!

I guess you remember when your mommy used to tell you, "Okay, dinner's almost ready. Go to the bathroom and PURGE your hands!"

(Not.)

 

[CES1951]

I see... So you have to REDEFINE terms to make the KJV "correct"?
Don't you understand that his is proof that the KJV is ERRANT?!

I guess you remember when your mommy used to tell you, "Okay, dinner's almost ready. Go to the bathroom and PURGE your hands!"

(Not.)

The word purge is absolutely appropriate in that verse. Purge and cleanse are synonyms. Sorry you didn't know that! See, you've learned a new word! Now....

edit image violation

 

[Theo1689]

From Strongs:

G2513: to cleanse (literally of figuratively); (make) clean (-se), purge, purify .... translated as "purge" x 3 in the KJV

G977: food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonial) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law: - meat, victuals

"Purge" and "cleanse" are often synonymous, and meats of various sorts were the most common foods forbidden by Jewish law.

I'll review Zodhiates when I get home, but your argument is moot.

<Chuckle>

It's amusing watching KJV-Only's squirm, and grasp at straws, to try to defend an indefensible translation. Of course, I knew they would, because a KJV-Only will NEVER admit being wrong, the KJV errant translation is the hill they've chosen to die on.

"Purge" means to "get rid of".
"Cleans" means to "make clean".

When we "clean" our hands and feet, we are not "getting rid of" them.

Let's see.... You like the (out-dated) Strong's.
Fair enough.

1033. βρῶμα broma, bro´-mah; from the base of 977; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law:

2907. κρέας kreas, kreh´-as; perhaps a primary word; (butcher’s) meat:

 

[Theo1689]

View attachment 1454

Yep...

And you KJV-Only's would do well to heed that advice.

But no skin off my nose if you don't....

 

[robycop3]

View attachment 1454

I know EXACTLY what that verse means in the KJV, but not EVERYONE who reads it does. Why use a Bible version as one's primary version that's not in the common language now in use? When I witness to people, I want to use the time to explain the GOSPEL to them, not translating obsolete, outdated English.

 

[CES1951]

Yep...

And you KJV-Only's would do well to heed that advice.

But no skin off my nose if you don't....

BTW, I'm not KJVO....so......WRONG AGAIN!!!

 

[CES1951]

I know EXACTLY what that verse means in the KJV, but not EVERYONE who reads it does. Why use a Bible version as one's primary version that's not in the common language now in use? When I witness to people, I want to use the time to explain the GOSPEL to them, not translating obsolete, outdated English.

I was simply posting that "purge" and "cleanse" are synonyms. Something the OP didn't seem to know! My replies have nothing to do with KJVO. Just informing him that purge is an appropriate word to use. BTW, although there ARE many outdated words in the KJV, "purge" is hardly an obsolete, outdated word.

 

[RiJoRi]

Mark 7:18,19: And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

Sorry...but if you can't understand that, you're in the same boat as roby, you both need to improve your comprehension and vocabulary! Truthfully, I'd be embarrassed to say that I didn't understand those verses. My 4th grade S/S class understood them. So, I ask you...... Are ye so without understanding also?

I'm trying to show you how a 21st century English speaker - without the "secret knowledge" of 1769 English - would understand the passage in Mark. Thow mayst remaine in ye previous century, but wy forcest thowe thine children to comprehend a dedde langwige? Surely and verily thy preacher preacheth nott to thee thusly? And when thou greetest thy brother, sayest thow, "Good morrow, mine brother! How art thou? and thine goodwife? Art also thine children well doing?"
An thou speakest nott thusly at all times, prithee why thinkest thou that ye Lord Almighty dost speak thusly unto His people?

 

[T-bird1971]

<Chuckle>

It's amusing watching KJV-Only's squirm, and grasp at straws, to try to defend an indefensible translation. Of course, I knew they would, because a KJV-Only will NEVER admit being wrong, the KJV errant translation is the hill they've chosen to die on.

"Purge" means to "get rid of".
"Cleans" means to "make clean".

When we "clean" our hands and feet, we are not "getting rid of" them.

Let's see.... You like the (out-dated) Strong's.
Fair enough.

1033. βρῶμα broma, bro´-mah; from the base of 977; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law:

2907. κρέας kreas, kreh´-as; perhaps a primary word; (butcher’s) meat:

No one is squirming, grasping at straws, or trying to defend an indefensible translation. You asked a question and that question was answered. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't negate the truth of it.