Matt 7:19

Theo1689

Well-known member
No one is squirming, grasping at straws, or trying to defend an indefensible translation. You asked a question and that question was answered. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't negate the truth of it.

There is no "truth" in your response, only grasping at straws.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Here is an interesting passage for KJV-Onlys to try to defend.
I'm sure they'll defend it like gangbusters, with all the certainty that it is allegedly trivial to do so.
All the more amusing! ;)

Mark 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (KJV)

Mark 7:19 ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν, ἀλλ’ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν· καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται, καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... purging all meats? (KJV)
Mark 7:19 ... καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (ESV)
Mark 7:19 ... (This means all foods are clean.) (NET)
Mark 7:19 ... (Thus He declared all foods clean.) (NASB)
Mark 7:19 ... (As a result, He made all foods clean.) (HCSB)
Mark 7:19 ... (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) (NIV)
Mark 7:19 ... thus purifying all foods?” (NKJV)


So we have a couple of errors in the KJV...
The first is "meats".
"βρωματα" doesn't mean "meats". It means "foods".
The Greek word for "meats" is "κρεας" (cf. Rom. 14:21, 1 Cor. 8:13; the KJV translates it "flesh").
This is somewhat of a minor quibble, although still significant, IMO.

The second one is "purging".
"καθαριζον" doesn't mean "purging", it means "cleaning".
The Greek word for "purge" is "διακαθαιρω" (cf. Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17)

Even the NKJV got it right, for goodness' sake! ;)
No mistake there Theo

After saying many thigs about "Tradition of the Elders"
he says

Mk.7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition,
which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye
.

14 And when he had called all the people unto him,
he said unto them,

Hearken unto me
every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man,
that entering into him can defile him:
but the things which come out of him,

those are they that defile the man.

(Ears too Hear)

16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

as he said of many other things;
Theo, only those that have
Eyes too See and Ears too Hear
will ever See or Hear

17 And when he was entered into the house from the people,
his disciples asked him concerning
the parable.

Thats Spelled
P--A--R--A--B--L--E


as Solomon says
too understand the "Words of the Wise", and their Dark sayings;
his words are hidden from all others, forever
too never Hear nor See
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
No mistake there Theo

After saying many thigs about "Tradition of the Elders"
he says

"... many thigs"?
I'm sorry, but I don't know what that is?

Mk.7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition,
which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye
.

14 And when he had called all the people unto him,
he said unto them,

Hearken unto me
every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man,
that entering into him can defile him:
but the things which come out of him,

those are they that defile the man.

(Ears too Hear)

16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

as he said of many other things;
Theo, only those that have
Eyes too See and Ears too Hear
will ever See or Hear

17 And when he was entered into the house from the people,
his disciples asked him concerning
the parable.

Thats Spelled
P--A--R--A--B--L--E


as Solomon says
too understand the "Words of the Wise", and their Dark sayings;
his words are hidden from all others, forever
too never Hear nor See

Not sure what you are saying here.
My best guess is, "If you disagree with me, then you don't have ears to hear".
And if that's what you meant, then your retort seems incredibly arbitrary and self-serving.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
"... many thigs"?
I'm sorry, but I don't know what that is?
"... many thigs"?

sorry, looks like a typo
"many things"

Not sure what you are saying here.
My best guess is, "If you disagree with me, then you don't have ears to hear".
And if that's what you meant, then your retort seems incredibly arbitrary and self-serving.


it is evident from the fact the disciples came to him wanting an explaination of his words

vs. 17 And when he was entered into the house from the people,
his disciples asked him concerning
the parable.""""
and that Christ spake of much more than eating and drinking

Then came together unto him the Pharisees,
and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled,
that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews,
except they wash their hands oft, eat not,
holding the tradition of the elders.
...
He answered and said unto them,
Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites,
as it is written,
This people honoureth me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me
.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.



dis·cre·tion
the quality of behaving or speaking in such a way as to avoid causing offense or revealing private information.

--------------------------------- Posters --------------------

A firm foundation to discretion., discernment, and understanding of the Words of Christ
is built upon the Proverbs of the Wise Man

as it is written of Christ ;
He spoke spake in such a way, only those willing to hear and understand would hear

when Peter says of the Epistles of Paul
being hard for those "Unlearned and unstable" to understand
he wasn't speaking of mans wisdom nor all these decrees form the schools of relegious studies
Drs of Divinity and all these Doctorate Degree In Theology
but of men unlearned in the Wisdom of Solomon
The words of the Wise Man - the Proverbs
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
"... many thigs"?

sorry, looks like a typo
"many things"




it is evident from the fact the disciples came to him wanting an explaination of his words

vs. 17 And when he was entered into the house from the people,
his disciples asked him concerning
the parable.""""
and that Christ spake of much more than eating and drinking

Then came together unto him the Pharisees,
and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled,
that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews,
except they wash their hands oft, eat not,
holding the tradition of the elders.
...
He answered and said unto them,
Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites,
as it is written,
This people honoureth me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me
.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.



dis·cre·tion
the quality of behaving or speaking in such a way as to avoid causing offense or revealing private information.

--------------------------------- Posters --------------------

A firm foundation to discretion., discernment, and understanding of the Words of Christ
is built upon the Proverbs of the Wise Man

as it is written of Christ ;
He spoke spake in such a way, only those willing to hear and understand would hear

when Peter says of the Epistles of Paul
being hard for those "Unlearned and unstable" to understand
he wasn't speaking of mans wisdom nor all these decrees form the schools of relegious studies
Drs of Divinity and all these Doctorate Degree In Theology
but of men unlearned in the Wisdom of Solomon
The words of the Wise Man - the Proverbs

Okay, still not getting what you're trying to say.
Thanks for trying.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Here is an interesting passage for KJV-Onlys to try to defend.
I'm sure they'll defend it like gangbusters, with all the certainty that it is allegedly trivial to do so.
All the more amusing! ;)

Mark 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (KJV)

Mark 7:19 ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν, ἀλλ’ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν· καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται, καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... purging all meats? (KJV)
Mark 7:19 ... καθαρίζον πάντα τὰ βρώματα. (TR)

Mark 7:19 ... (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (ESV)
Mark 7:19 ... (This means all foods are clean.) (NET)
Mark 7:19 ... (Thus He declared all foods clean.) (NASB)
Mark 7:19 ... (As a result, He made all foods clean.) (HCSB)
Mark 7:19 ... (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) (NIV)
Mark 7:19 ... thus purifying all foods?” (NKJV)


So we have a couple of errors in the KJV...
No errors in the KJV
I assue you know that these
Mark 7:19 ... (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (ESV)
Mark 7:19 ... (This means all foods are clean.) (NET)
Mark 7:19 ... (Thus He declared all foods clean.) (NASB)
Mark 7:19 ... (As a result, He made all foods clean.) (HCSB)
Mark 7:19 ... (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) (NIV)
Mark 7:19 ... thus purifying all foods?” (NKJV)
are nothing more than the opinions of the men that translated or edidted the versions you quoted
and they inserted it into the text

For those Posters that don't know of such
these are "Mustards" planted in the fields of the Lord

for those unfamiliar with the Mustards of Scripture
its a noxious / poisonous plant, there are many different plants of the Mustards
and its effects on those that eat of them and of the ragworts

the effects on livestock are;

The first clinical sign is partial or complete blindness (blind staggers).
Animals wander aimlessly until exhausted,
or may stand pushing their head against a solid object for hours.
inability to use the tongue or to swallow (paralyzed tongue).
Cattle may stand at water unable to drink, or try unsuccessfully to graze.
 

robycop3

Well-known member
I was simply posting that "purge" and "cleanse" are synonyms. Something the OP didn't seem to know! My replies have nothing to do with KJVO. Just informing him that purge is an appropriate word to use. BTW, although there ARE many outdated words in the KJV, "purge" is hardly an obsolete, outdated word.
Neither is wrong in any version in that verse.
 

logos1560

Well-known member
No errors in the KJV
I assue you know that these

Mark 7:19 ... thus purifying all foods?” (NKJV)
are nothing more than the opinions of the men that translated or edidted the versions you quoted
and they inserted it into the text
You fail to prove your opinion of man that there are no errors in the KJV to be true. It is a proven fact that there were errors in the 1611 edition of the KJV.

You fail to prove that the translation decisions involved in the making of the NKJV are any more the opinions of men that translated or edited it than the translation decisions involved in the making of the KJV are.

Does a consistent, just application of your own assertion suggest that the KJV is nothing more than the opinions of the men that translated or edited it?
 

CES1951

Active member
Does the fact that theo1689 has disappeared from the thread he started seem to acknowledge that he knows he was wrong by stating "purge" and "cleanse" are not synonyms, and wants to save himself further embarrassment? :)

I'm not even sure if this entire thread really has anything to do with KJVO. I do, however, hope theo1689 appreciates that we apparently taught him a new word to add to his vocabulary! :)
 

Shoonra

Member
First, would somebody please correct the title of this thread (from Matt to Mark).

Second, this verse (the one in Mark) is one of several verses that cause me to think that the KJV is tough reading, esp for people with limited English or limited education).

I'll add a couple of more renderings:
Mark 7:19 "(In saying this, Jesus declared that all foods are fit to be eaten.)" (GNB-TEV)
Hugh J. Schonfield's Original New Testa,emt puts this text into a footnote: "He thus pronounced every kind of food clean. (Actually he did nothing of the kind. Tr.)"
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Does the fact that theo1689 has disappeared from the thread he started seem to acknowledge that he knows he was wrong by stating "purge" and "cleanse" are not synonyms, and wants to save himself further embarrassment? :)

Um, nope.
I've proved my point.
And since you and others simply repeat the same lame excuses, I didn't feel the need to respond further.

But I guess that's the KJVO mindset... Any bankrupt argument is valid to KJVO, as long as they are stubborn enough to have the last word. Then they can make worthless accusations about others "running away" to "save further embarrassment".

They only ones here who should be embarrassed are the KJVO's.
And they're not even smart enough to realize it.

I'm not even sure if this entire thread really has anything to do with KJVO. I do, however, hope theo1689 appreciates that we apparently taught him a new word to add to his vocabulary! :)

<Chuckle>
No, you didn't "teach" me anything.
I have discernment, and I don't accept the false teachings of KJVO's.
 

CES1951

Active member
I knew my post would get you back! LOL........Just to be absolutely clear then....am I wrong in saying you that claim that "purge" and "cleanse" are not synonyms? Do you still believe that?

BTW, I'm NOT KJVO......or are you calling me a liar?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I knew my post would get you back! LOL........Just to be absolutely clear then....am I wrong in saying you that claim that "purge" and "cleanse" are not synonyms? Do you still believe that?

BTW, I'm NOT KJVO......or are you calling me a liar?

<Chuckle>

So you are trying to goad me and force me into a discussion with you?
Not only is KJVO irrational, but it leads to people who don't show ANY of the fruits of the Spirit.

Take the chip off your shoulder, and stop trying to pick fights all day long.
You'll live longer, and have a happier life.

And even the KJV teaches that you should be peaceful, gentle, charitable, etc. etc.
Try it sometime.
 

Steven Avery

Active member
NO links to other forums permitted. NO self promotion
OK, I'll bite
Jonathan

Yes, your explanation there is accurate.
We discussed this in January.

Mark 7:19 (AV)
Because it entereth not into his heart,
but into the belly,
and goeth out into the draught,
purging all meats?

This is using the Greek majority reading καθαρίζον.
,,,, Even using the critical text, καθαρίζων it is quite strained to get the declare all foods clean English, as you point out.
My Bible text is the TR-AV.
Be careful with the apparatus, they have a trick to omit many uncials that support the Byzantine-TR reading.
It is a fascinating textual variant, with very significant doctrinal overtones.

=======================

Here I discussed it a few years back.
EDIT NO links to other forums permitted. NO self promotion

Going from memory, the "declare all foods clean" is a possible interpretation/extrapolation based on the minority variant, masculine, in the corruption versions.

The TR/Byz reading is neuter, and is as in the AV, and does not support the errant idea of declaring all foods clean.

Mark 7:18-19 (AV)
And he saith unto them,
Are ye so without understanding also?
Do ye not perceive,
that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man,
it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly,
and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

========================

John William Burgon is very good on this text, after he had flipped his position.

EDIT NO links to other forums permitted. NO self promotion

I have a lot more, but it is buried in email archives. :)

And on the web page.
"Mark 7:19 - in the modern versions Jesus declares all foods clean"

========================
 
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Steven Avery

Active member
No one is squirming, grasping at straws, or trying to defend an indefensible translation. You asked a question and that question was answered. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't negate the truth of it.

True.
EDIT No insults
 
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Buzzard

Well-known member
And the Water into Wine

Jn.2:6
And there were set there six waterpots of stone,
after the manner of the purifying of the Jews,
containing two or three firkins apiece.
 

Steven Avery

Active member
... this verse (the one in Mark) is one of several verses that cause me to think that the KJV is tough reading, esp for people with limited English or limited education). I'll add a couple of more renderings:
Mark 7:19 "(In saying this, Jesus declared that all foods are fit to be eaten.)" (GNB-TEV)
Hugh J. Schonfield's Original New Testamemt puts this text into a footnote: "He thus pronounced every kind of food clean. (Actually he did nothing of the kind. Tr.)"

It looks like Hugh Schonfield was correcting the errant text, knowing that it would clearly make Jesus into a law-breaker, and thus not the Messiah. Much better a slightly more difficult reading than one that is false.

Here is what Schonfield puts in the actual text.


“Are you so dense?” he said. “Do you not realise that everything external that enters a man cannot soil him, because it enters his stomach, not his mind, and is evacuated in the toilet.lr) It is what emanates from a man that soils him,” he continued. “It is from inside, from a man’s mind, that evil designs proceed, impurity, thieving, murder, adultery, covetousness, roguery, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evil things emanate from within and they soil a man.”
 
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En Hakkore

Well-known member
Yes, your explanation there is accurate.
We discussed this in January.
Yes... as I recall it didn't go very far.

Going from memory, the "declare all foods clean" is a possible interpretation/extrapolation based on the minority variant, masculine, in the corruption versions.
Referring to those manuscripts in which a masculine verb appears as corrupted begs the question, of course.

The TR/Byz reading is neuter, and is as in the AV, and does not support the errant idea of declaring all foods clean.
Your evaluation appears to be based on a particular reconstruction of Christian origins and then assuming the text must cohere with this. Now, I happen to agree with you that the historical Jesus is unlikely to have broken the dietary laws of his religious tradition or counseled others to do so or abrogated these restrictions for his followers... this reflects dietary practices among later Gentile believers in Jesus --- the masculine verb forces the clause to be read as a parenthetical aside of the author, who we know is writing for a Gentile audience since he had paused earlier to explain Jewish custom (see vss 3-4). A straightforward correspondence between Mark's narrative and history is neither necessary nor, perhaps, even intended under the hypothesis this is the earliest-recoverable form of the text. He may be presenting Jesus' teaching on eating with unwashed hands as paradigmatic for the later practice of eating unclean foods. Alternatively, he may well be presenting Jesus as abrogating the Jewish dietary laws, mistakenly so from an historical standpoint. Matthew may understand it this way and, writing for a law-observant community, omits the clause in his version of the teaching. Luke perhaps reads it the other way, planting ambiguity in his loose parallel --- "everything is clean for you" (11:41) --- and delaying the specifics of food consumption to the early church period (see Acts 10:15), where historically they are better situated. The potential of the other interpretation makes the masculine verb the more difficult reading to which the neuter verb in the text tradition underlying the KJV may be seen as a secondary solution... the tension is avoided by making the removal itself the agent of purification and the clause continues Jesus' teaching. This creates its own problem, however, and one that is less likely to reflect the earliest-recoverable form since it ruins the irony in the saying otherwise that however pure something may be that enters the stomach it comes out unclean according to Jewish law.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 
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