Matthew 23:13

LeeH

Well-known member
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Question for calvinists, is Jesus making a false accusation against the teachers of the law and Pharisees? Are they preventing people from entering the kingdom of heaven?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Question for calvinists, is Jesus making a false accusation against the teachers of the law and Pharisees? Are they preventing people from entering the kingdom of heaven?
Jesus is making a correct statement...

They prevented people from entering the Kingdom of Heaven; Israel was cut-off in part because of them...
 
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LeeH

Well-known member
Jesus is making a correct statement...

They prevented people from entering the Kingdom of Heaven; Israel was cut-off in part because of them...
But you don't believe that, do you, you believe in total depravity, no one can prevent people from entering the kingdom of God, because everyone is depraved and can't call on God anyway, whether they are cut off, led astray, given false teachings, makes no difference, they can't respond.

I believe it, because I don't believe in total depravity.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Question for calvinists, is Jesus making a false accusation against the teachers of the law and Pharisees? Are they preventing people from entering the kingdom of heaven?
No. The teachers of the law and Pharisees should have seen Jesus and understood who He was. Instead they shut the door on that truth. The door for eternal life can only be opened by God.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
But you don't believe that, do you, you believe in total depravity, no one can prevent people from entering the kingdom of God, because everyone is depraved and can't call on God anyway, whether they are cut off, led astray, given false teachings, makes no difference, they can't respond.

I believe it, because I don't believe in total depravity.
Sure I believe it. Calvinism is more than Total Depravity; for instance, I believe in Sola Scriptural, Sola Fide, and Sola Christus. Total Depravity isn't one of the 5-Solas; and Total Depravity is 'of' the person, not of God. This is why God hardened Pharaoh's Heart and Pharaoh Hardened his own Heart...
 

LeeH

Well-known member
No. The teachers of the law and Pharisees should have seen Jesus and understood who He was. Instead they shut the door on that truth. The door for eternal life can only be opened by God.
I thought calvinism teaches that people are unable to accept the truth of God's word, because they are totally depraved. That is what calvinism teaches isn't it? No you are telling me something else. Are you a calvinist?
 

LeeH

Well-known member
Sure I believe it. Calvinism is more than Total Depravity; for instance, I believe in Sola Scriptural, Sola Fide, and Sola Christus. Total Depravity isn't one of the 5-Solas; and Total Depravity is 'of' the person, not of God. This is why God hardened Pharaoh's Heart and Pharaoh Hardened his own Heart...
You believe that someone can stop someone accepting the truth of God's word by being misled, well I agree with that. Doesn't Total depravity teach that no one can accept the truth of God's word, now you appear to be arguing they can, but can be prevented from doing so by bad teachers.

Please just confirm, can a person by themselves put their trust in God, can they believe in Jesus by their own free choice, or does God have to make them believe? Can you clarify what you believe?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
I thought calvinism teaches that people are unable to accept the truth of God's word, because they are totally depraved. That is what calvinism teaches isn't it? No you are telling me something else. Are you a calvinist?
No...the problem with you is that you don't understand. For someone accept the truth of God's word God has to act.
For example take Lydia. Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
She was totally depraved...if God didn't open her heart she would not have listened to and understood what Paul was preaching.
There is even John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”.........If the Father doesn't grant it....you don't come to Christ.

Climd down off your high horse and understand it's all God and zero you.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You believe that someone can stop someone accepting the truth of God's word by being misled, well I agree with that. Doesn't Total depravity teach that no one can accept the truth of God's word, now you appear to be arguing they can, but can be prevented from doing so by bad teachers.

Please just confirm, can a person by themselves put their trust in God, can they believe in Jesus by their own free choice, or does God have to make them believe? Can you clarify what you believe?
I confirm that on your own; you can't have Faith in Christ, you can't freely Will to believe that the Gospel is true while you remain in Cognitive Dissonance; and that God doesn't make you believe but rather makes you Alive, and then you exit your State of spiritual Cognitive Dissonance...

While we're Lost before we believe the Gospel, we CAN believe the Law of God, and that God exists, because his Invisible Attributes are clearly seen. You should use this point when you argue against Calvinism, and force us to deal with our natural ability to believe there is 'a' God. But our Ability is like when Jesus healed the blind man with slober and clay, at first the man saw men like trees. He saw, but not clearly; he may as well have not saw at all, right? The Signs and Wonders in the Bible all have some kind of Redemptive meaning. If at first, the man had said 'I see one who looks like the Son of God', Christ wouldn't have needed to try again to heal his Blindness. We know there is a God, but we Suppress the Truth through Cognitive Dissonance; IE, a Hard Heart. That's Total Inability due to the Unconditional Consequences of Original Sin; IE, Total Depravity...

Says the Dog Catcher, one of the Chosen weaker things, and the Chief of Sinners; a prince of Heaven...
 
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LeeH

Well-known member
I confirm that on your own; you can't have Faith in Christ, you can't freely Will to believe that the Gospel is true while you remain in Cognitive Dissonance; and that God doesn't make you believe but rather makes you Alive, and then you exit your State of spiritual Cognitive Dissonance...

While we're Lost before we believe the Gospel, we CAN believe the Law of God, and that God exists, because his Invisible Attributes are clearly seen. You should use this point when you argue against Calvinism, and force us to deal with our natural ability to believe there is 'a' God. But our Ability is like when Jesus healed the blind man with slober and clay, at first the man saw men like trees. He saw, but not clearly; he may as well have not saw at all, right? The Signs and Wonders in the Bible all have some kind of Redemptive meaning. If at first, the man had said 'I see one who looks like the Son of God', Christ wouldn't have needed to try again to heal his Blindness. We know there is a God, but we Suppress the Truth through Cognitive Dissonance; IE, a Hard Heart. That's Total Inability due to the Unconditional Consequences of Original Sin; IE, Total Depravity...

Says the Dog Catcher, one of the Chosen weaker things, and the Chief of Sinners; a prince of Heaven...
I saw your quote on the atheist thread, I thought I would acknowledge your reply here, hope you don't mind. I hope I have not said anything in a way that seems abrasive, you have been very respectful. If I have not been, I appologise, that was never my intention.

I confirm that on your own; you can't have Faith in Christ, you can't freely Will to believe that the Gospel is true while you remain in Cognitive Dissonance; and that God doesn't make you believe but rather makes you Alive, and then you exit your State of spiritual Cognitive Dissonance...
So God makes you born again, before you can believe on the gospel. I can accept that, given my own experience, for me that is true. I can't speak for others, but seems to make sense to me, that you can't truly believe until God gives you the faith to believe in him, but I can't be sure, I have heard people testimonies that seem to contradict that.

While we're Lost before we believe the Gospel, we CAN believe the Law of God, and that God exists, because his Invisible Attributes are clearly seen.
That would account for the many religions and false Christian belief systems. So yes agreed. However you do have people who believe in the gospel and believe they are Christians and will worship Jesus and they fall away and say they never really believed, so who was they trusting? In themselves, after all you can believe in the gospel, but that faith isn't likely to last. JW's believe in the gospel, but they don't know who Jesus is, so they have just gone from one prison to another one, the truth has not set them free. Jesus is the truth and they at the end of the day put their trust not in Jesus, but a man made religion. Same for the catholics, some catholics actually do believe in Jesus and the gospel, but their trust is in the RCC and Mr pope, although they must all be struggling with Francis at the moment. Then you have the Benny Hinn type followers, who believe in Jesus, but who are they putting their trust in, Hinn or Jesus? We both understand why they are entering the wide gate and not the narrow one. It's about where you put your trust at the end of the day. Is God really going to fill someone with the Holy spirit, when that person has no trust in him at all? I don't think so. And that is the reason why all these people have gone from one prison to another, some from birth, they never put their trust in God, they found it easy to just trust what man tells them to believe. The devil is the god of this world and he has plenty of false religions to guide people into, after all it's quite easy for him to do that, they are blind.

Now we agree on quite a lot, the question is, can man do anything to reach out to God, it seems you think not. I was an atheist and whatever faith I had in God, vanished in school, when one day a teacher said Jesus miracles could be explained, I didn't even know Jesus was God, I thought Jesus was just a man, schools in Britain don't teach you about the gospel, so I was free to grow up being an atheist. One day in my late 30's with a business struggling and middle age approaching, I had come to the point where this world held no more mystery for me, no more excitment, I was seeing the injustice in it, I was beginning to hate it. Then one night I remember (without going into a long story) deciding to look deep within myself and see what made me unhappy, I finallly admitted to myself, lying made me unhappy, I lied a lot, I equated it to running from one father who was the father of truth to the father of lies and I always returned to the father of lies, because I didn't want to be judged, but I was never happy with him and it dawned on me at that moment I was a sinner, the moment I said it to myself I am sinner and I was shocked because I believed it, I knew God existed, my whole personality changed in an instant, I would swear or say smutty things all the time. I now had the fear of God in me and stopped all these things. I believed in God, however I was so angry with the fact the world had deceived me, there was a God and the world had lied to me, I no longer trusted anything I was told.

I then set out to find out who God was, I bought all kinds of religious books, flicked through them, couldn't get into any of them, this went on for year and I was seeing the world in a different way, adverts showed their true meaning. Some would say, be greedy, be selfish, love yourself, that's how I saw them, not all of course, but I could see the hidden messages behind them, I just saw evil and it was everywhere. I was even aware of the devil, but even then I could not equate all that knowledge that the devil, God, Jesus meant the bible was true. I didn't even give it a thought the best I could figure out was that God would believe in two things, love and truth. That's all I could figure out about God. I couldn't trust anything, I was like in no mans land.

I spent a year in total torment and very alone, like living in two different worlds, then one day I remember like it was yesterday, it was raining and I was walking to work and the whole thing was getting to me, I just couldn't work out who God was and in the end I cried out, Lord I can't do this no more I want to know who you are and the next thought I had which was almost instant, I said in my head, Jesus is God and I knew it. I wasn't even thinking of Jesus, I couldn't figure out how I couldn't see it before, but the scales had fallen from my eyes. The joy was overwhelming and the peace I found was amazing at that moment. I found my God, but of course he was there all the time.

I went home and started reading the bible the NT, all of a sudden, where nothing made sense before each word felt like a rock hitting my soul.

I didn't know I was born again, until I read it, no one told me, I knew what it meant when I read it.

I believe God requires us to put some trust in him, I trusted God, even though I didn't know who he was, I knew there was nothing else I could do. I had no option, in the end, but to trust him, I realised it and cried out. I look back now and realise God was giving me loads of signs, but I still couldn't figure God out. Now this experience fits with your calvinism, but the fact I called out, doesn't.

How God gets you there, well that is his business, not anyone elses. I believe there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus, but how you get there is clearly with a helping hand from God. So I believe a person must put some trust in God, before God decides to fill you with the Holy Spirit and make himself known to you, because up until that moment, you can't know God, you can believe, but believing and knowing are two different things.

I don't believe that God picks people out of a lucky dip with no reason, I am not saying that is what calvinists believe, but if it's for some other reason, what, is it the bloodline, is it you, you have something special he wants, or was it because you had some trust, a spec, enough for God.

I don't think we will ever be able to prove it one way or another with scripture, because a strongly held belief is hard to shift, calvinists believe what they do by assembling various scripture, but don't forget, it was John Calvin who did that for you.

For me I have a relationship with Jesus, lots of testimony and that is the evidence I am saved. People can quote scripture all day long don't mean anything.

For me calvinism throws up too many issues, like for instance, if someone cannot do anything to be saved and God has decided to send them to damnation from the beginning, that brings into question the justice in that. You can argue that God is soveriegn and has the right to do that and he can, but do you actually believe he would condemn people to hell, when their only option was to sin, he condemns them for not believing in him, for not turning to him, when they could do nothing else? Our God is Holy and Just, it's like saying I made you into a car and you should have been a motorbike, why didn't you become a motorbike, I am going to destroy you because of that.
 

LeeH

Well-known member
I confirm that on your own; you can't have Faith in Christ, you can't freely Will to believe that the Gospel is true while you remain in Cognitive Dissonance; and that God doesn't make you believe but rather makes you Alive, and then you exit your State of spiritual Cognitive Dissonance...

While we're Lost before we believe the Gospel, we CAN believe the Law of God, and that God exists, because his Invisible Attributes are clearly seen. You should use this point when you argue against Calvinism, and force us to deal with our natural ability to believe there is 'a' God. But our Ability is like when Jesus healed the blind man with slober and clay, at first the man saw men like trees. He saw, but not clearly; he may as well have not saw at all, right? The Signs and Wonders in the Bible all have some kind of Redemptive meaning. If at first, the man had said 'I see one who looks like the Son of God', Christ wouldn't have needed to try again to heal his Blindness. We know there is a God, but we Suppress the Truth through Cognitive Dissonance; IE, a Hard Heart. That's Total Inability due to the Unconditional Consequences of Original Sin; IE, Total Depravity...

Says the Dog Catcher, one of the Chosen weaker things, and the Chief of Sinners; a prince of Heaven...
I had to break it up.

Continued 2


That is just not the God I know, when I read the scriptures. This world is unjust, but God is not like the world.

Then you have once saved always saved, that seems to me like saying, did God say you will not die. Highly risky, given Jesus's warning. The elect, you assume are those born again, that could be the case, but he continues to warn about straying from the faith and sinning,hmm.

I could never believe in calvinism, I know, even before being born again, this world is not to be trusted and calvin a man, figured it out, from what it seems to me to be a selection of scriptures that seem to support his theory and very convincing they are too, I might add, good enough to convince many people. Yet even so there are many scriptures that contradict them, which are clearly ignored, but what convinces me the most and this is not with yourself of course, so this is not aimed at you, but the fruit of some of the defenders of calvinism seem to be very unchristian in their attitude towards Christians, that to me is a big sign of something very wrong. When someone attacks my belief in Christianity, I know God, nothing rattles me and i know their wrong and that is because you know. However whenever a person has doubt, they shake and get humpty, why because you are shaking their foundations of their belief, I see that with all kinds of belief systems. You probably know that, you must see that on here all the time.

Of course now we have the gospel, which you are commanded to preach, but how can you preach it with the calvinist ideology? If a rich man comes to you and asks, what do I need to do to receive eternal life, does the calvinist say what he truly believes, there is nothing you can do, God does it all, that is what one calvinist said here. I know what the answer would be, you will preach the gospel, but if they are asked, do you believe if I repent of my sins, trust in Jesus has my saviour and believe Jesus died for my sin, will Jesus save me, if I do that sincerely in my heart, the calvinsts then has to lie, because they don't believe that, they have to say if God decides to, yes, but if not, no.

Imagine if I was not saved and I hear that, there is nothing you can do, it's all God, he decides. I find that shocking, it makes preaching the gospel powerless not just in the mind of the one hearing it, but the one who supposed to believe in it too.

I recall walking along the road one day and i asked the Lord to give me someone to witness to, the moment I said it, a woman walked around the corner pushing a pram and she stopped me and offered me a paper, it was all about God, she was a JW. She wanted to witness to me, but it was me witnessing to her in the end, she stood and just listened. I spoke to her at length, you could see she was starving because the JW's feed their prisoners with swine food, but she was brimming with excitement when she left me, for the things I had told her, because I had shared the good news, and my testimonies helped her to believe, she too could have a real relationship with God, because I believe God wants all people to come to him and because I believe it I can announce it with confidence and with a great zeal, because I believe. Calvinism would rob me of that confidence and great zeal I have.

I speak with a passion, sometimes too much, I hope I have not said anything out of turn. I like fruitful discussions too. :)

God bless you and may God keep you and your family safe.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
For me calvinism throws up too many issues, like for instance, if someone cannot do anything to be saved and God has decided to send them to damnation from the beginning, that brings into question the justice in that. You can argue that God is soveriegn and has the right to do that and he can, but do you actually believe he would condemn people to hell, when their only option was to sin, he condemns them for not believing in him, for not turning to him, when they could do nothing else? Our God is Holy and Just, it's like saying I made you into a car and you should have been a motorbike, why didn't you become a motorbike, I am going to destroy you because of that.
Thanks for all of the agreement; I like to think that my arguments are pretty good. You said a lot, so I would just comment on a little bit of it; if you want my answer for something I didn't answer, Just ask it of me one at a time...

Regarding Calvinism, I think all Evangelicals are Calvinists; but they don't know it. All Evangelicals believe they are Saved by God's Effectual, prevenient Grace. This means that Grace is the 'First Factor' of Salvation; Faith (or the Will) can at best only be the 'Second Factor' of Salvation when it's true that Grace is always First, or else you are Saved by your very own 'Prevenient' Free Will. So, to answer your question here, no one can do anything to Believe; until Grace makes a 'real' difference first. After Grace? Sure we can believe. If Grace doesn't make a 'real' difference; Grace is Moot and is Grace 'in name only'; because you don't really need it...

A good picture of this is like the Horse Races; all the horses are ready, but they have to wait on the Gates before they can run the Race as to win the prize. The same goes for Olympian Track and Field Runners, they have to wait on the Starting Pistol; if they jump the Blocks, it's always a False Start. The same goes for you; Grace made a real difference for you before you ever believed the Gospel. Faith before Grace is like jumping off the Blocks, thus you were Totally Unable until God's Grace made a 'real' Difference for you; like opening the Gates or Firing the Starting Pistol. Does Faith fire the starting Pistol, or does Grace open the Gates?

Total Depravity is the Combination of two Doctrines; 'Total' Inability, and Native 'Depravity' due to Original Sin...
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
No...the problem with you is that you don't understand. For someone accept the truth of God's word God has to act.
For example take Lydia. Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
She was totally depraved...if God didn't open her heart she would not have listened to and understood what Paul was preaching.
Lydia was already a "worshiper of God", which means God's Spirit was already leading her and was simply confirming and completing her faith, much as Cornelius in Acts 10!


There is even John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”.........If the Father doesn't grant it....you don't come to Christ.

Climd down off your high horse and understand it's all God and zero you.

That's interesting, did Jesus tell us to pick up our cross and let him carry it? We have to pick up our cross and follow!

Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Total Depravity is the Combination of two Doctrines; 'Total' Inability, and Native 'Depravity' due to Original Sin...
As always, you are honest and up front about your position and definitions, but if this is true, then it's the first time I've ever heard it explained as you present it here, and it seems a bit disingenuous. Total isn't about depravity at all, but rather incapacity. You are actually adding an extra point to the five-point TULIP argument! so is depravity not complete?


Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
As always, you are honest and up front about your position and definitions, but if this is true, then it's the first time I've ever heard it explained as you present it here, and it seems a bit disingenuous. Total isn't about depravity at all, but rather incapacity. You are actually adding an extra point to the five-point TULIP argument! so is depravity not complete?


Doug
I agree with you; Total is about our Incapacity to trust Jesus on our own, but why is it about that? It's because of our Native Depravity...

Otherwise the Doctrine would just be called Total Incapacity; right? Total isn't about Depravity, Brother? Depravity is in it's name. ~ We aren't Utterly Depraved, as in we're as Depraved as we can be; we are Totally Depraved in Scope, IE in Body, Mind and Soul. If Depravity isn't part of Total Depravity, which part of us isn't Depraved? Our Will?
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
I agree with you; Total is about our Incapacity to trust Jesus on our own, but why is it about that? It's because of our Native Depravity...

Otherwise the Doctrine would just be called Total Incapacity; right? Total isn't about Depravity, Brother? Depravity is in it's name. ~ We aren't Utterly Depraved, as in we're as Depraved as we can be; we are Totally Depraved in Scope, IE in Body, Mind and Soul. If Depravity isn't part of Total Depravity, which part of us isn't Depraved? Our Mind?
Per normal, we are so very close. But as historically stated, "total", is an adjective about the nature of "depravity". Depravity is not the cause of "total inability", in the term "Total Depravity"! Total Depravity is saying there is no part of man's being that is not corrupted by sin, there is no capacity unaffected. Thus, based on the standard of God's pefection , we are, because of this total deprivation caused by sin, unable to do anything pleasing in the sight of God! We do not possess the capacity for perfection, for holiness. We cannot of our own means, do anything pleasing to God.


Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Per normal, we are so very close. But as historically stated, "total", is an adjective about the nature of "depravity". Depravity is not the cause of "total inability", in the term "Total Depravity"! Total Depravity is saying there is no part of man's being that is not corrupted by sin, there is no capacity unaffected. Thus, based on the standard of God's pefection , we are, because of this total deprivation caused by sin, unable to do anything pleasing in the sight of God! We do not possess the capacity for perfection, for holiness. We cannot of our own means, do anything pleasing to God.


Doug
Yes. But we both agree that some Doctrines can be explained better; or more fully. @LeeH said he couldn't be a Calvinist because of 'this or that' reason; so I went on to explain it better to him. He's said a few times he agreed with me when it seemed he didn't really want to agree; it's because I always use shared beliefs to better explain things...

Fundamentalism is very helpful...
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Question for calvinists, is Jesus making a false accusation against the teachers of the law and Pharisees? Are they preventing people from entering the kingdom of heaven?
You correctly picked a teaching of Jesus that refutes Calvinism in multiple ways.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Please just confirm, can a person by themselves put their trust in God
How can they?

How did Jim Jones........ How did Joseph Smith........ How did CT Russel?

What information did they lack that you have?

Why are they false teachers and you not?

What made you so special to understand the actual truth and then to make a decision to believe? What is special about you that did not make you depraved but a righteous man capable of discerning Spiritual truths?
 
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