Matthew 23:13

Theo1689

Well-known member
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

According to calvinism, that is not possible. Who should I believe? John Calvin or Jesus, tough one that.

Of course it's possible in Calvinism.

Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord WILL be saved.

The rich man said what do I need to do to be saved, Jesus said give away all your money and follow me. Jesus is telling him you have to do something, but calvinism teaches, we have no ability to. So Jesus is just toying with him, not being straight, honest.

I'm sorry that you don't understand Jesus.
The Bible teaches that the purpose of the Law is not to earn salvation, but to convict us of our sin, and learn that we are bankrupt, and have to rely on the mercy of God (Rom. 3:19-20). There are two ways to salvation, either keeping the Law perfectly, or else relying on the mercy of our Saviour. The first option is hypothetically possible, but impossible in practice. The problem the rich man had was that he didn't understand that he couldn't keep the law. So that's what Jesus did, He kept pushing people to the Law until they learned the lesson that they couldn't keep it, and they had to instead place their faith in the One who could.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord don't waste your time, that is impossible and if you did, that would be a sinful prideful thing to do and I will ignore you anyway.

No, it's not impossible or a waste of time.
All of God's elect are eventually regenerated, and given a heart of flesh to replace their heart of stone, and are given the faith to call on the name of the Lord, and so be saved.

What a gospel, who would want to preach that, wouldn't get many takers, maybe that is why it has to be sugar coated

Well, no... When you mock the ways of God, it's going to come off as mockery.

with false promises of being saved and stuff,

No "false promises".
Believers will be saved. That is a TRUE promise.
Nobody claimed that everyone has the "ability" to "choose" to believe.
That's apparently your nonsense.

like open the door and I will come in. Maybe that should read, I will knock on the door you can't open it, because it's nailed from the outside or don't worry you can't open it, I will just smash it in.

If you're quoting Rev. 3, you should be aware that "I stand at the door and knock" is NOT addressed to unbelievers, it's addressed to the CHURCH.

Did the thief on the cross really get saved, maybe when he got there and saw it, Jesus said, you don't have the right clothes on, sorry, down to hell you go. Jesus never lied, did he, he just didn't give him the fall SP and he did see paradise, just for a moment. Well how do we know, lets face it, it's hard to know anything according to calvinism, the bible says do this and you will be saved, but calvinism, says, no you can't, not possible, don't even think of trying it.

You really don't want to be corrected, do you?
You simply want to rant.
Well, fortunately for you, you don't have to embrace Calvinism to be saved.

How about this one and I really love this, when Jesus says:

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

And all the Calvinists said, "Amen!"
What's the problem?

If I believed in calvinism, I would have a great problem believing most of this scripture, I have to say.

That's nice...
If I DIDN'T believe in Calvinism, I would have to REJECT most of the Bible.

John 3,
John 6,
John 8,
John 10,
Acts 13,
Rom. 8,
Rom. 9,
Eph. 1,
Eph. 2,
Col. 2,
Rev. 5,
etc.
etc.
etc.

Thankfully I don't, you calvinists should be given a medal or something for your level of faith in John Calvins doctrine.

Actually, most Calvinists have never read John Calvin.
We got our theology from studying the BIBLE.

Someone asks me what do I need to do to be saved, I would say Jesus said do this, but calvinism which tells us what the true gospel says, says you can't do nothing, everyone is predestined,

You don't believe in predestination?
I'm sorry that you reject Rom. 8, Eph. 1, Acts 4, etc. etc.

some to hell, some to heaven. If you are predestined to heaven, God will save you anyway, so sit tight, he will get round to you. Should I sin, well apparently according to calvinism, you can't lose your salvation.

When God regenerates someone, He replaces our hearts of stone with a heart of flesh, so that we don't WANT to sin. So it's not like we go out on "sinning sprees", being confident that we can sin away and still be saved.

If you are predestined to be destroyed in hell, well, I guess hmm, well, I can't help you, try Islam, actually they have predestination too, hmm, mormonism, get your own planet and become a god, sounds like a lot work, running your own planet, I have enough hassle running my own life, let alone a planet full of people. Then they ask but I thought the God of the bible was the God of hope, he is, but just not for those he made for destruction.

Do you think anyone DESERVES salvation?

Trust in the Lord, they might ask, hmm, that's pride to think you can do that, pride is a sin, no can't do that. What can I do to be saved, nothing, absolutely nothing.

You're being ridiculous.
You know that, right?

I guess if calvinists are happy to believe in this, go for it. I can swallow quite a lot, but I stop at camels, that is where I draw the line, if I had to swallow calvinism, I fancy I would have the hump for a very long time,

It's not about being "happy".
It's about believing SCRIPTURE.
But yes, I'm satisfied in that a true understanding of the gospel gives ALL glory to God.

(no pun intended, that's a lie, it was).

So you think you can continue to lie, and still be saved?
Don't have to give up your sins, is that it?
Every sin you commit, goes on the back of the Saviour.
Do you really hate Him that much, that you want to give Him more suffering?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Do you believe in total depravity,

Can you tell me what "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME" means, in John 6:44?
Can you tell me what "DEAD in trespasses and sins" means, in Eph. 2:1, and Col. 2:13?
Can you tell me what "slave of sin" means in John 8:34?

And can you tell me something else?

Which of the two statements better matches your theology?:

a) "And all who were appointed to eternal life believed."
b) "And all who believed were appointed to eternal life."

Which of the two statements better matches your theology?:

a) "You do not believe, because you are not my sheep."
b) "You are not my sheep, because you do not believe."
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Can you tell me what "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME" means, in John 6:44?
Can you tell me what "DEAD in trespasses and sins" means, in Eph. 2:1, and Col. 2:13?
Can you tell me what "slave of sin" means in John 8:34?

And can you tell me something else?

Which of the two statements better matches your theology?:

a) "And all who were appointed to eternal life believed."
b) "And all who believed were appointed to eternal life."

Which of the two statements better matches your theology?:

a) "You do not believe, because you are not my sheep."
b) "You are not my sheep, because you do not believe."
A man cannot serve two Masters; he will Love one and Hate the other...

A Slave of Sin then must Love Sin and Hate God; and can only serve Sin since he CANNOT serve them both...
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
There's a difference between a worshipper of God...and Jesus.

<sigh> so much for the Trinity

She didn't know Jesus until her heart was opened.

But the relationship with God was already alive and viable. Jesus just completed and elevated an already established relationship!


OK...so what?

1) You said that it is all God and no human activity, which is monergism not synergism!

2) Jesus describes a) a situation that man can have a desire to follow Jesus, and that b) there are specific necessary responsibilities for those who possess such a desire to follow in order to succeed in being a follower of Jesus.

I don't think the context of that verse was around total depravity.

It is an implicit thread of thought underlying the statement, an axiomatic foundation.


Doug
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Lydia was already a "worshiper of God", which means God's Spirit was already leading her and was simply confirming and completing her faith, much as Cornelius in Acts 10!




That's interesting, did Jesus tell us to pick up our cross and let him carry it? We have to pick up our cross and follow!

Doug
What was the point of opening her heart then? Also, whether to open her heart or not should be her choice no?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
<sigh> so much for the Trinity

Lydia didn't even know there was a trinity.
But the relationship with God was already alive and viable. Jesus just completed and elevated an already established relationship!
You got it....just completed. Lydia was unaware of that. Until God opened her heart which allowed her believe....she was not saved.
1) You said that it is all God and no human activity, which is monergism not synergism!

OK???????
2) Jesus describes a) a situation that man can have a desire to follow Jesus, and that b) there are specific necessary responsibilities for those who possess such a desire to follow in order to succeed in being a follower of Jesus.



perhaps that desire is Gods drawing.
It is an implicit thread of thought underlying the statement, an axiomatic foundation.


Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
What was the point of opening her heart then? Also, whether to open her heart or not should be her choice no?
What do you think would have occurred if God had not opened her Heart to 'Hear' Saint Paul? Ask him that; he'll give you a truthful answer...

What if a Worshipper of God never became a 'Completed Jew'? Those who hold to Sola Christus know this answer...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
TibiasDad said:

But the relationship with God was already alive and viable. Jesus just completed and elevated an already established relationship!

You got it....just completed. Lydia was unaware of that. Until God opened her heart which allowed her believe....she was not saved.
Without a 'Relationship' With Jesus, there is no Relationship with God; it's Begging the Question to assume Lydia had a Relationship with God without the Messiah. When she needed her Heart Opened to believe Saint Paul, she never had a 'Relationship' with God's Messiah...

Right?
 
G

guest1

Guest
Without a 'Relationship' With Jesus, there is no Relationship with God; it's Begging the Question to assume Lydia had a Relationship with God without the Messiah. When she needed her Heart Opened to believe Saint Paul, she never had a 'Relationship' with God's Messiah...

Right?
Yes the One and Only way to the Father is through the Son. Its why no one in the OT had a relationship with the Father. It was the Son whom appeared and spoke to the OT prophets. Jesus tells us no man has seen the Father nor heard His voice.

So you are spot on brother !
 

LeeH

Well-known member
Can you tell me what "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME" means, in John 6:44?
Can you tell me what "DEAD in trespasses and sins" means, in Eph. 2:1, and Col. 2:13?
Can you tell me what "slave of sin" means in John 8:34?

And can you tell me something else?

Which of the two statements better matches your theology?:

a) "And all who were appointed to eternal life believed."
b) "And all who believed were appointed to eternal life."

Which of the two statements better matches your theology?:

a) "You do not believe, because you are not my sheep."
b) "You are not my sheep, because you do not believe."

The gospel that you believed when you got saved was not the gospel which states that God so loved the elect, but that God so loved the world, meaning everyone. That is how every person understands it that gets saved. That is the gospel everyone hears and believes in.

It's only later that you move on that you believe a different gospel, but it was not the one you initially believed in, yet now you will say, I just didn't understand it, I do now and so nothing has changed.

However the gospel calvinism preaches is God doesn't love the everyone, just the elect and Jesus didn't die for everyone, just the elect.

How can you share the good news of the gospel with anyone, when you won't know if they are elect, if they ask did Jesus die for my sins, you can't honestly answer them, you have to repeat what you said. The calvinist belief that Jesus didn't die for everyone, is a gospel with no saving power for the one hearing it, if they ask, because you can't say yes, because that person you are witnessing to might not be elect.

I see calvinists say hyper calvinists are heretics, but they are the fruit of calvinism, and even calvinists say their fruit is bad. Every tree is known by it's fruit, didn't Jesus say that? So where did hyper calvinism grow from?

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

A Jesus who loves everyone, to a different Jesus, who doesn't, starting to ring any bells yet, ie alarm bells? You now believe in a different Jesus from the one you got saved by.

Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Calvinism is another gospel and if you say it's not, why not preach it if it's the truth? Go tell all those that are perishing, that Jesus loves only those who God has predestined to be saved and no one has the ability to respond to the gospel, because you are totally depraved.

Like I said, that is not the gospel anyone gets saved by, so calvinism is a distorted gospel.

Can you tell me what "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME" means, in John 6:44?
Can you tell me what "DEAD in trespasses and sins" means, in Eph. 2:1, and Col. 2:13?
Can you tell me what "slave of sin" means in John 8:34?

You only quote these verses, because it supports your doctrine, like your doctrine is all that matters, you defend it with a zeal, because all your faith is in it. But we both know the Jesus you initially believed in that brought you to faith, is not the same Jesus you believe in now.

You initially believed Jesus loved everyone and he laid down his life for everyone, now you believe he doesn't, that is a different Jesus to the one you believed in initially. Calvinism seduced you, you saw probably OSAS, swallowed that, fairly easy and then more food for thought was presented to you, Total depravity, predestination, I bet you struggled with that, for a while and then you felt you had to accept it, a lot to swallow, but you finally caved, it must have felt like an enormous force, compelling you to believe it and after that, the rest was easy. How you calvinists must dream, if only Jesus loved everyone, sharing the gospel would be so much easier, I could proclaim it from the roof tops, but you know, what if someones asks me, did Jesus die for everyone, even me, you have to either lie to them or dodge the question, because if you tell them the truth, they will walk away.

You spend your whole life desperate to try and convince yourself, it's all true, looking for more scripture to back up your doctrine, but deep down, you wish it wasn't so, that the initial Jesus you believed was true. You have to surpress that.

You know, you can read the scriptures all you want, you can dig deep into them and find more hidden jems, but none of that compares to having a relationship with Jesus, does it, do you agree?

I was doing bible study with someone, they are not saved, but they want to learn, they have an interest, I have been praying for them. We were reading John and it can BE quite long winded, for some one not saved and they said I am getting a bit tired and bored now, it is so repetitive. I saw the next verse and laughed, they had not seen it and I said read the next verse, which was John 16:12. They read it and saw nothing. I said read that again, they did, still did not see anything. I said what did you just say before reading that, they said I was tired and getting bored a bit. Now read it again. They did, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.". They looked, confused and then I said, can't you see, God is speaking to right now, through the scripture, through his word. Then they saw it, God very gently rebuking them, through his word.

I know my fathers voice, when he speaks, all who belong to Jesus do. I am fully aware of what "DEAD in trespasses and sins" means, I see it every day. So I don't need to explain that to you, now do I?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Theo1689 said:
Can you tell me what "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME" means, in John 6:44?
Can you tell me what "DEAD in trespasses and sins" means, in Eph. 2:1, and Col. 2:13?
Can you tell me what "slave of sin" means in John 8:34?

I notice that you were UNABLE to answer any of those three questions.
Why not?

Theo1689 said:
Which of the two statements better matches your theology?:

a) "And all who were appointed to eternal life believed."
b) "And all who believed were appointed to eternal life."

I notice you were UNABLE to answer this question.
Why not?

Theo1689 said:
Which of the two statements better matches your theology?:

a) "You do not believe, because you are not my sheep."
b) "You are not my sheep, because you do not believe."

I notice that you were UNABLE to answer this question either.
Why not?

The gospel that you believed when you got saved was not the gospel which states that God so loved the elect, but that God so loved the world, meaning everyone.

Where does the Bible teach that "world" ("κοσμος") means "everyone"?
I'll tell you where. It DOESN'T.

What Greek lexicon defines "world" ("κοσμος") as "everyone"?
It'll tell you which... NONE of them.

What John 3:16 means is that God's love is EXTENDED past just the Jews, and includes Gentiles as well. But which Jews and Gentiles does God love, and save? Well, the very verse answers that question.... "Everyone who BELIEVES".

And that, my dear friend, is the ELECT.

That is how every person understands it that gets saved. That is the gospel everyone hears and believes in.

You don't speak for "every person".
And the meaning of the Bible isn't determined by what "every person" thinks it means.

However the gospel calvinism preaches is God doesn't love the everyone, just the elect

Let's see....

Mal. 1:2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”

Psa. 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

and Jesus didn't die for everyone, just the elect.

Let's see...

Matt. 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

How can you share the good news of the gospel with anyone, when you won't know if they are elect,

Simple.
I open my mouth.
I start speaking.
I tell them the same message Jesus did, that we are sinners, and Christ died for sin, and if they believe, they will be saved.

I'm not so stupid as to tell them something ANTI-BIBLICAL and tell them that Christ died for "them" when I don't know any such thing, and Jesus and the Apostles NEVER went up to strangers and told them that Christ "loved" them and "died for them".

The [BIBLICAL] belief that Jesus didn't die for everyone,

FTFY..... ;)

is a gospel with no saving power for the one hearing it, if they ask, because you can't say yes, because that person you are witnessing to might not be elect.

You want to talk about "power"?
What does the Bible teach about "power"?:

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1Cor. 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

It seems that YOU are the one who doesn't understand "the power of God".

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

You are the one who teaches "a different gospel" than the one Jesus preached.
(See how easy that was? ;) )

You only quote these verses, because it supports your doctrine,

Yet you can't refute them.
You need to stop rejecting the truth, and accept Jesus for who He REALLY is,
not how you "want" Him to be.

You initially believed Jesus loved everyone and he laid down his life for everyone,

Bearing false witness is a sin.
No wonder you're clearly not saved.
Start obeying Jesus, and stop misrepresenting others.

now you believe he doesn't, that is a different Jesus to the one you believed in initially. Calvinism seduced you, you saw probably OSAS, swallowed that, fairly easy and then more food for thought was presented to you, Total depravity, predestination, I bet you struggled with that, for a while and then you felt you had to accept it, a lot to swallow, but you finally caved, it must have felt like an enormous force, compelling you to believe it and after that, the rest was easy. How you calvinists must dream, if only Jesus loved everyone, sharing the gospel would be so much easier, I could proclaim it from the roof tops, but you know, what if someones asks me, did Jesus die for everyone, even me, you have to either lie to them or dodge the question, because if you tell them the truth, they will walk away.

Bearing false witness is a sin.
Too bad you never learned that lesson from Jesus.

You spend your whole life desperate to try and convince yourself, it's all true, looking for more scripture to back up your doctrine, but deep down, you wish it wasn't so, that the initial Jesus you believed was true. You have to surpress that.

Bearing false witness is a sin.
Too bad you never learned that lesson from Jesus.

You know, you can read the scriptures all you want, you can dig deep into them and find more hidden jems, but none of that compares to having a relationship with Jesus, does it, do you agree?

That's why I praise God that I have an AMAZING relationship with Jesus, my Saviour, and my Lord. That's why I obey Him, and unlike you, I don't bear false witness. Clearly Jesus is not your Lord, since you constantly disobey Him.

I know my fathers voice, when he speaks, all who belong to Jesus do. I am fully aware of what "DEAD in trespasses and sins" means, I see it every day. So I don't need to explain that to you, now do I?

Well, since you deny its meaning, you probably SHOULD try explaining it to me.
Because your response simply looks like you're DODGING the issue, because you know it refutes your false theology.

But we will let the lurkers decide on that, won't we....? ;)
 

LeeH

Well-known member
I notice that you were UNABLE to answer any of those three questions.
Why not?



I notice you were UNABLE to answer this question.
Why not?



I notice that you were UNABLE to answer this question either.
Why not?



Where does the Bible teach that "world" ("κοσμος") means "everyone"?
I'll tell you where. It DOESN'T.

What Greek lexicon defines "world" ("κοσμος") as "everyone"?
It'll tell you which... NONE of them.

What John 3:16 means is that God's love is EXTENDED past just the Jews, and includes Gentiles as well. But which Jews and Gentiles does God love, and save? Well, the very verse answers that question.... "Everyone who BELIEVES".

And that, my dear friend, is the ELECT.



You don't speak for "every person".
And the meaning of the Bible isn't determined by what "every person" thinks it means.



Let's see....

Mal. 1:2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”

Psa. 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.



Let's see...

Matt. 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.



Simple.
I open my mouth.
I start speaking.
I tell them the same message Jesus did, that we are sinners, and Christ died for sin, and if they believe, they will be saved.

I'm not so stupid as to tell them something ANTI-BIBLICAL and tell them that Christ died for "them" when I don't know any such thing, and Jesus and the Apostles NEVER went up to strangers and told them that Christ "loved" them and "died for them".



FTFY..... ;)



You want to talk about "power"?
What does the Bible teach about "power"?:

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1Cor. 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

It seems that YOU are the one who doesn't understand "the power of God".



You are the one who teaches "a different gospel" than the one Jesus preached.
(See how easy that was? ;) )



Yet you can't refute them.
You need to stop rejecting the truth, and accept Jesus for who He REALLY is,
not how you "want" Him to be.



Bearing false witness is a sin.
No wonder you're clearly not saved.
Start obeying Jesus, and stop misrepresenting others.



Bearing false witness is a sin.
Too bad you never learned that lesson from Jesus.



Bearing false witness is a sin.
Too bad you never learned that lesson from Jesus.



That's why I praise God that I have an AMAZING relationship with Jesus, my Saviour, and my Lord. That's why I obey Him, and unlike you, I don't bear false witness. Clearly Jesus is not your Lord, since you constantly disobey Him.



Well, since you deny its meaning, you probably SHOULD try explaining it to me.
Because your response simply looks like you're DODGING the issue, because you know it refutes your false theology.

But we will let the lurkers decide on that, won't we....? ;)
Are you telling me, when you first got saved, the gospel you learnt was that Jesus didn't die for everyone, just the elect. Every calvinist that I have ever heard, said it's something they learnt after studying. Maybe I should do a new post on it, should be interesting.

So you know who is saved and who isn't? Really, I don't recall saying your not saved, it's not for me to judge, only God judges who is saved, doesn't he?

But we will let the lurkers decide on that, won't we....?
Well what good would it do them anyway, if your calvinist theory is correct and God has predestined them to hell.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Are you telling me, when you first got saved, the gospel you learnt was that Jesus didn't die for everyone, just the elect.

I really didn't have a firm view one way or the other.
I will accept your apology now.

Every calvinist that I have ever heard, said it's something they learnt after studying. Maybe I should do a new post on it, should be interesting.

Maybe you shouldn't generalize and straw-man.

So you know who is saved and who isn't?

I never made any such claim.
Once again, I will remind you that bearing false witness is a sin.

Well what good would it do them anyway, if your calvinist theory is correct and God has predestined them to hell.

Well, God has commanded me to preach the gospel to everyone, and I refuse to disobey my Lord.

Also, I have no idea who the elect are, so I'm given the task to proclaim the gospel to EVERYONE, so that it will take effect in the elect. (Somewhat like the farmer sowing seed on ALL the types of ground, even when only the good soil will find the seed taking root.)

I also believe that God is glorified in the preaching of His gospel, even when it is proclaimed to the reprobate.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Can you tell me what "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME" means, in John 6:44?
Can you tell me what "DEAD in trespasses and sins" means, in Eph. 2:1, and Col. 2:13?
Can you tell me what "slave of sin" means in John 8:34?

Our friend Lee keeps DODGING these questions.
I wonder why?

Which of the two statements better matches your theology?:

a) "And all who were appointed to eternal life believed."
b) "And all who believed were appointed to eternal life."

Our friend Lee keeps DODGING this question.
I wonder why?

Which of the two statements better matches your theology?:

a) "You do not believe, because you are not my sheep."
b) "You are not my sheep, because you do not believe."

Our friend Lee keeps DODGING this question.

I wonder why?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Lydia didn't even know there was a trinity.

I was only saying that if one is worshiping God, they will necessarily worship Jesus because both are God. There is zero difference between worshipping God and Jesus! Jesus said "If you believe in God, believe in me also" (John 14:1) and that those taught by God will come to him when they hear about him.

You got it....just completed. Lydia was unaware of that. Until God opened her heart which allowed her believe....she was not saved.

Not in the current sense, but in the OT sense, she was in good standing with God!
perhaps that desire is Gods drawing.
It is and indicative statement of fact, she was already an authentic worshiper of God! It is an act on her part, not God's!


Doug
 

CrowCross

Super Member
I was only saying that if one is worshiping God, they will necessarily worship Jesus because both are God. There is zero difference between worshipping God and Jesus! Jesus said "If you believe in God, believe in me also" (John 14:1) and that those taught by God will come to him when they hear about him.
The pharisees and sadducees worshipped God. Did they also worship Jesus?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I was only saying that if one is worshiping God, they will necessarily worship Jesus because both are God.

So Jews worshipped Jesus?!

There is zero difference between worshipping God and Jesus! Jesus said "If you believe in God, believe in me also" (John 14:1)

Um, at the risk of stating the obvious...
If they are the same thing, then Jesus wouldn't have had to tell them to "believe in me also".
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Without a 'Relationship' With Jesus, there is no Relationship with God; it's Begging the Question to assume Lydia had a Relationship with God without the Messiah. When she needed her Heart Opened to believe Saint Paul, it means she never had a 'Relationship' with God's Messiah...

Right?
Yes, it is really a full-proof argument...
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Without a 'Relationship' With Jesus, there is no Relationship with God; it's Begging the Question to assume Lydia had a Relationship with God without the Messiah. When she needed her Heart Opened to believe Saint Paul, she never had a 'Relationship' with God's Messiah...

Right?
Then logically speaking no one prior to Jesus ever had a standing of relationship with God. Moses was God's friend, but had no relationship with God. Job was a righteous man whom God said would never deny him, but didn't have a relationship with the God he would never deny. The Old Testament saints of Hebrews 11 had no relationship with God the father?

With all due respect, Bruiser, you're straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. There were many, who, before hearing about Jesus, were true worshipers of God, in fellowship with him, and regarded as righteous by God. God was their true father and having believed in him, the revelation of the messiah engendered belief in him being the Son of God as well and in concert with their current belief in God the Father.

Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Then logically speaking no one prior to Jesus ever had a standing of relationship with God. Moses was God's friend, but had no relationship with God. Job was a righteous man whom God said would never deny him, but didn't have a relationship with the God he would never deny. The Old Testament saints of Hebrews 11 had no relationship with God the father?

With all due respect, Bruiser, you're straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. There were many, who, before hearing about Jesus, were true worshipers of God, in fellowship with him, and regarded as righteous by God. God was their true father and having believed in him, the revelation of the messiah engendered belief in him being the Son of God as well and in concert with their current belief in God the Father.

Doug
I agree with everything you just said, except for one factor; the over-lapping of the Old and New Covenants. The Old Covenant ended probably between the Cross and Pentecost, and the New Covenant started around the same; but debating those specifics doesn't matter right now. Moses did have his Messiah, the New Covenant didn't over-lap his life-time like like it did for Lydia. She needed to become a completed Jew; what if God didn't open her Heart to Hear Paul, and she rejected Jesus as Messiah? She would have heard "I never knew you". She would not be a 'Completed Jew', and Logically she never had her Messiah like Moses did...

To saw she had a Relationship with her Messiah because she was a Worshipper of God, but then received her Messiah again, is a Tautology...

You should know by now that I have good reasons to say the things I say. There are two reasons for this; the over-lapping of the two Covenants for a few years (IE, my Gospel Tract 'Man of Two Covenants), and Paul saying the Athenians "Worshipped" God in Ignorance. The Athenians and Lydia were Ignorant Worshipers of God who needed their Hearts opened by Paul...

It would have been impossible for Lydia to keep the Mosaic Covenant after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, and apparently it Passed-away for her before that Covenant truly Passed-away; but Lydia would have still been a Worshipper of God. She was a Woman of Two Covenants; and she had to become a Completed Jew. She needed to have her Heart opened to Hear the Gospel; what if that had never happened since it was obviously a necessity? Did Paul try to open King Agrippa's Heart? What would have happened if Paul had succeded?
 
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