Matthew 23:13

[guest1]

Then logically speaking no one prior to Jesus ever had a standing of relationship with God. Moses was God's friend, but had no relationship with God. Job was a righteous man whom God said would never deny him, but didn't have a relationship with the God he would never deny. The Old Testament saints of Hebrews 11 had no relationship with God the father?

With all due respect, Bruiser, you're straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. There were many, who, before hearing about Jesus, were true worshipers of God, in fellowship with him, and regarded as righteous by God. God was their true father and having believed in him, the revelation of the messiah engendered belief in him being the Son of God as well and in concert with their current belief in God the Father.

Doug

Unless you believe in Christophanies which solves the above question.

 

[ReverendRV]

Yes the One and Only way to the Father is through the Son. Its why no one in the OT had a relationship with the Father. It was the Son whom appeared and spoke to the OT prophets. Jesus tells us no man has seen the Father nor heard His voice.

So you are spot on brother !

I'm reminded of this Post because of Doug's last Post to me, and your Post to him. Since no one has seen God the Father in the OT, they saw God the Son. They could rightly say that God is their Savior, so Moses is the friend of the Logos of God. The Messiah was to be a Man; the Seed of the Woman, the son of David. After the New Covenant was instituted, there was no other Name given under Heaven for which men must be Saved. Since Lydia surpassed the passing away of the Old Covenant, her Heart needed to be Opened by God to hear the Gospel; same as everyone else...

I think we need a Gospel Tract about how no one has seen God the Father since he dwells in unapproachable Light. it's an important Doctrine to the Doctrine of Grace and Sola Christus; even in the Old Testament...

 

[guest1]

I'm reminded of this Post because of Doug's last Post to me, and your Post to him. Since no one has seen God the Father in the OT, they saw God the Son. They could rightly say that God is their Savior, so Moses is the friend of the Logos of God. The Messiah was to be a Man; the Seed of the Woman, the son of David. After the New Covenant was instituted, there was no other Name given under Heaven for which men must be Saved. Since Lydia surpassed the passing away of the Old Covenant, her Heart needed to be Opened by God to hear the Gospel; same as everyone else...

I think we need a Gospel Tract about how no one has seen God the Father since he dwells in unapproachable Light. it's an important Doctrine to the Doctrine of Grace and Sola Christus; even in the Old Testament...

Amen.

And remember Jesus words below !

Jesus said the OT was about Himself

Luke 24:25-27
25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Luke 24:44-45
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,



Jesus said the Holy Spirit will bear witness of HIM

John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:7-9
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me

John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

Everything points to Christ in the OT and everything in the NT points back to Christ. Scripture is Christocentric. And of course you already know I have a really high Christological view of Scripture.

FYI- it’s my personal opinion that it is better to error on the side of a high christological view if one could categorize it as such.

 

[TibiasDad]

I agree with everything you just said, except for one factor; the over-lapping of the Old and New Covenants. The Old Covenant ended probably between the Cross and Pentecost, and the New Covenant started around the same; but debating those specifics doesn't matter right now. Moses did have his Messiah, the New Covenant didn't over-lap his life-time like like it did for Lydia. She needed to become a completed Jew; what if God didn't open her Heart to Hear Paul, and she rejected Jesus as Messiah? She would have heard "I never knew you". She would not be a 'Completed Jew', and Logically she never had her Messiah like Moses did...

To saw she had a Relationship with her Messiah because she was a Worshipper of God, but then received her Messiah again, is a Tautology...

You should know by now that I have good reasons to say the things I say. There are two reasons for this; the over-lapping of the two Covenants for a few years (IE, my Gospel Tract 'Man of Two Covenants), and Paul saying the Athenians "Worshipped" God in Ignorance. The Athenians and Lydia were Ignorant Worshipers of God who needed their Hearts opened by Paul...

It would have been impossible for Lydia to keep the Mosaic Covenant after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, and apparently it Passed-away for her before that Covenant truly Passed-away; but Lydia would have still been a Worshipper of God. She was a Woman of Two Covenants; and she had to become a Completed Jew. She needed to have her Heart opened to Hear the Gospel; what if that had never happened since it was obviously a necessity? Did Paul try to open King Agrippa's Heart? What would have happened if Paul had succeded?

I am not arguing that her heart did not need to hear of Jesus, the completion of the covenant with God. I am only saying that she was a true believer in God, and when she heard the gospel she recognized it as truth. The Jews were criticized for not believing in Jesus because they didn’t really believe in the God of Israel. Lydia, Cornelius and others did, and thus they readily believed because God was already a true reality in their lives!

Doug

 

[ReverendRV]

I am not arguing that her heart did not need to hear of Jesus, the completion of the covenant with God. I am only saying that she was a true believer in God, and when she heard the gospel she recognized it as truth. The Jews were criticized for not believing in Jesus because they didn’t really believe in the God of Israel. Lydia, Cornelius and others did, and thus they readily believed because God was already a true reality in their lives!

Doug

I agree, they were certainly Elect of God; but Agrippa wasn't Elect. It's probably safe to say that Agrippa was also a Worshipper of God before he encountered Paul too; IE his Offerings, et al. He probably didn't Worship God in Spirit or in Truth though. Lydia Worshipped God in Spirit; but not in Truth. Lydia was a Worshipper of God, IE the Unknown, incomplete God. She was Justified through Faith Alone in Christ Alone; the Completed Jew then knew the Completed God, or rather was known by the Completed God...

She was never previously Justified until God opened her Heart to Hear Paul. We're zeroing in on the heart of the matter; a Worshipper of God was never Justified until God Opens the Heart, and they Hear the Gospel...

 

[Our Lord's God]

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Question for calvinists, is Jesus making a false accusation against the teachers of the law and Pharisees? Are they preventing people from entering the kingdom of heaven?

Calvinists are double minded my friend.

 

[guest1]

Calvinists are double minded my friend.

unitarians are triple minded- sin, the flesh and the devil.

 

[TibiasDad]

I agree, they were certainly Elect of God; but Agrippa wasn't Elect. It's probably safe to say that Agrippa was also a Worshipper of God before he encountered Paul too; IE his Offerings, et al. He probably didn't Worship God in Spirit or in Truth though.

I would not put Cornelius or Lydia in with Agrippa.

Lydia Worshipped God in Spirit; but not in Truth. Lydia was a Worshipper of God, IE the Unknown, incomplete God. She was Justified through Faith Alone in Christ Alone; the Completed Jew then knew the Completed God, or rather was known by the Completed God...

She was never previously Justified until God opened her Heart to Hear Paul. We're zeroing in on the heart of the matter; a Worshipper of God was never Justified until God Opens the Heart, and they Hear the Gospel...

I agree that Lydia was "incomplete" without Christ, but I believe that Lydia (and Cornelius) was in right standing with God at the point that the gospel was brought to them. They had believed what they had known at that point and thus when the gospel came to them, the Spirit revealed it as the truth they already known, but in a different way! Again Jesus condemned the Jews because if they had believed the OT, they would have also believed in him. I believe Lydia and Cornelius were true believers in the OT revelation, and thus when they heard the gospel from Paul and Peter they believed this as well. It rang true with that already held as true.


Doug

 

[Our Lord's God]

unitarians are triple minded- sin, the flesh and the devil.

We are all quite aware that all things are whatever you want them to be.

 

[Manfred]

Job was a righteous man whom God said would never deny him, but didn't have a relationship with the God he would never deny.

42 Then Job answered the Lord and said:


2 I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.

 

[Manfred]

I thought calvinism teaches that people are unable to accept the truth of God's word, because they are totally depraved. That is what calvinism teaches isn't it?

What does scripture say about people not being able to UNDERSTAND the spiritual truths contained within scripture.

If I say to you, "God is good all the time" you may respond with something like Yes, all the time, God is Good"
If I say the same to an Atheist, what would their response be? Something like, if there was a god he is evil and there is no good in him etc.etc.

What makes you able to know God is good all the time?
Why does the Atheist have no clue?

Lets take it a bit further:
You (before conversion) and the Atheist have access to the same information. You discern something as truth that makes you decide to believe, yet they cannot discern anything.
Why? Surely you are no more special than they are... or?

Before you became a born again believer, were you in anyway able to understand ANY spiritual truths?
Was it the Power of God that enabled you to understand and respond?

I find it strange how people believe they could figure salvation out in the natural, and freely choose to generate some kind of faith.

When you preach the Gospel do you depend on the Spirit of God to save the hearer of the gospel, or will your eloquent words of wisdom help them to make a positive decision?

 

[Manfred]

or does God have to make them believe?

How does God make anyone believe?

If you know 2+2=4, do I have to make you believe that?
God reveals Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
That revelation is clear and concise. He floods the recipient with His love. It is the Spirit that is made alive, the self will is still fighting the will of God.

Tell me, what can you do in the natural that is pleasing to God?

 

[Manfred]

That would account for the many religions and false Christian belief systems. So yes agreed. However you do have people who believe in the gospel and believe they are Christians and will worship Jesus and they fall away and say they never really believed, so who was they trusting?

Our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities...
God is able of course to bring such a person out of that false belief. The person is not able to bring themselves out, and into salvation.

 

[TibiasDad]

42 Then Job answered the Lord and said:


2 I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.

Job 1:1In the land of Uz there lived a man w1In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2He had seven sons and three daughters, 3and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

Doug

 

[Manfred]

Job 1:1In the land of Uz there lived a man w1In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2He had seven sons and three daughters, 3and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

Doug

Doug. Job himself repented in that he knew about God in hearing of God.
At the end he gets revelation and he repents.

No doubt it came as no surprise to God.

Let me ask you if you think that the righteousness of these guys mentioned were sufficient enough for them to be saved.
Do you think salvation is possible apart from the Righteousness of Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

leeh

please just confirm, can a person by themselves put their trust in God, can they believe in Jesus by their own free choice,

Afraid not Jn 6:44,65

 

[TibiasDad]

Doug. Job himself repented in that he knew about God in hearing of God.
At the end he gets revelation and he repents.

No doubt it came as no surprise to God.

Let me ask you if you think that the righteousness of these guys mentioned were sufficient enough for them to be saved.
Do you think salvation is possible apart from the Righteousness of Christ.

Do the righteous, the blameless and upright who fear God and shun evil go to hell?

Doug

 

[Manfred]

Do the righteous, the blameless and upright who fear God and shun evil go to hell?

Doug

Without Christ yes.

The Way, the Truth, and the Life
5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”…

We have to now consider if this is a contradiction (which it is not)
There is No One Righteous
9What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one. 11There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.…

Was the righteousness attributed to those guys a righteousness of being without sin? How were they counted as being righteous.

What say you?

 

[TomFL]

Without Christ yes.

The Way, the Truth, and the Life
5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”…

We have to now consider if this is a contradiction (which it is not)
There is No One Righteous
9What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one. 11There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.…

Was the righteousness attributed to those guys a righteousness of being without sin? How were they counted as being righteous.

What say you?

Romans 3:21-26 (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[TibiasDad]

Without Christ yes.

The Way, the Truth, and the Life
5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”…

We have to now consider if this is a contradiction (which it is not)
There is No One Righteous
9What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one. 11There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.…

Was the righteousness attributed to those guys a righteousness of being without sin? How were they counted as being righteous.

What say you?

Manfred,

With all due respect, the inspired scriptures say he was, so it was God who calls him blameless, upright, and revering God, i.e., righteous! I am accustomed to believing his assessment over any other voice or opinion.

Doug