Matthew 6:9 does not forbid praying to the Lord Jesus

Fred

Well-known member
Matthew 6:9
Pray, then, in this way: Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. (NASB)
The Lord Jesus also taught that He is the proper recipient of prayer in John 14:14. The earliest Christians obeyed Him by offering prayer to Him, and they taught others to do so.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/pau...lxx-unto-the-lord-jesus-in-romans-10-13.7415/

The same Greek word (hagiazō) for "Hallowed" in Matthew 6:9 is also used in reference to the Lord Jesus in 1 Peter 3:15. He is to be sanctified as Lord. This is very important because this is another example where YHWH (and the worship of Him) is applied from an Old Testament text (Isaiah 8:13) in reference to the Lord Jesus in the New Testament.

Finally, it is worth noting that the prayer to the Father to deliver us from evil in Matthew 6:13 corresponds to Paul's doxology unto the Lord Jesus to be delivered from evil in 2 Timothy 4:18.
 
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cjab

Well-known member
Matthew 6:9
Pray, then, in this way: Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. (NASB)
The Lord Jesus also taught that He is the proper recipient of prayer in John 14:14. The earliest Christians obeyed Him by offering prayer to Him, and they taught others to do so.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/pau...lxx-unto-the-lord-jesus-in-romans-10-13.7415/

The same Greek word (hagiazō) for "Hallowed" in Matthew 6:9 is also used in reference to the Lord Jesus in 1 Peter 3:15. He is to be sanctified as Lord. This is very important because this is another example where YHWH (and the worship of Him) is applied from an Old Testament text (Isaiah 8:13) in reference to the Lord Jesus in the New Testament.
That both the name of God and the person of Christ are to be revered doesn't mean that the two are to be confounded. Rather they are both to be honored together rather than one substituted for another: John 5:23.

Finally, it is worth noting that the prayer to the Father to deliver us from evil in Matthew 6:13 corresponds to Paul's doxology unto the Lord Jesus to be delivered from evil in 2 Timothy 4:18.
Not the same. In 2 Tim 4:18, Paul defers to Jesus as Lord (i.e. the ruler of creation), but yet who never usurps the Father (1 Cor 11:3, 1 Cor 15:27). In Matt 6:13, Jesus is talking about the proper recipient of prayer.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Your post doesn't make any refutation of what I asserted.
It does, because if Jesus was YHWH, then there would be no need to pray to the Father.

Your theology involves a less than frank attempt to do away with the Father by substituting Jesus for the Father, using the OId Testament YHWH name.

In fact YHWH denotes the Father, as may be easily seen from Psa 110:1
 

Fred

Well-known member
It does, because if Jesus was YHWH, then there would be no need to pray to the Father.

Your theology involves a less than frank attempt to do away with the Father by substituting Jesus for the Father, using the OId Testament YHWH name.

In fact YHWH denotes the Father, as may be easily seen from Psa 110:1
One can pray to both since both fully know the hearts of all which is vital to being the proper recipient of prayer.

YHWH from the Old Testament is applied unto the Lord Jesus in the New Testament - in a passage about prayer.
 

cjab

Well-known member
One can pray to both since both fully know the hearts of all which is vital to being the proper recipient of prayer.
You are just contradicting what Jesus himself said in the Lord's prayer etc.
YHWH from the Old Testament is applied unto the Lord Jesus in the New Testament - in a passage about prayer.
As I have already pointed out, "calling on someone" is not necessarily an accurate translation of the Greek in context: the clear inference is to acknowledge/confess/believe in the Lord Jesus.

As Jesus himself said:

Mat 10:33 "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Luk 12:8 "Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:"

This is the real sense of "call upon" here and doesn't denote the form of prayer.
 

cjab

Well-known member
One can pray to both since both fully know the hearts of all which is vital to being the proper recipient of prayer.
Obviously I will concede that Jesus isn't foreign to the YHWH name - the Word being fully involved in its revelation - and and I also concede that the risen Jesus as Lord is our de facto God, albeit the Father remains our de jure God. But these considerations don't really alter anything as to the de jure forms of addressing God, as taught by Christ.
 

cjab

Well-known member
You need to learn the difference between contradict and complement.
No, I meant "contradict." You don't see obedience to Jesus words as required? Your superior knowledge is better that what he said? I don't credit you one iota.
 

Fred

Well-known member
Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...

Are you ABLE to pray to one WITHOUT praying to both?

Steven Tsoukalas: Though I fully adhere to the distinction of the three persons of the Trinity, I also adhere to their unity. Thus, when the Son is prayed to, the Spirit and the Father hear the prayer; and when the Son answers He does so in union with the Father and the Spirit...when I state that the Son alone is prayed to, I mean to draw attention to Paul's emphasis of the Son, not his exclusion of the Father (Knowing Christ in the Challenge of Heresy, page 112, footnote 100).
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Steven Tsoukalas: Though I fully adhere to the distinction of the three persons of the Trinity, I also adhere to their unity. Thus, when the Son is prayed to, the Spirit and the Father hear the prayer; and when the Son answers He does so in union with the Father and the Spirit...when I state that the Son alone is prayed to, I mean to draw attention to Paul's emphasis of the Son, not his exclusion of the Father (Knowing Christ in the Challenge of Heresy, page 112, footnote 100).

I didn’t ask what Steven Tsoukalas believes. I asked what YOU believe.

YOU are the one who said “One can pray to both since both fully know the hearts of all which is vital to being the proper recipient of prayer.”

I expect Steven would say you “have to” pray to both if he believes praying to one always means praying to both.

But YOU said “can” pray to both which would imply that it is also possible “not to” pray to both.

That is why I am asking YOU to confirm...

Are you ABLE to pray to one WITHOUT praying to both?
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
They both hear.

Your title for this thread is “Matthew 6:9 does not forbid praying to the Lord Jesus”.

Why does it matter that you can pray to Jesus if (as you say) praying to the Father is also praying to Jesus at the same time?
 

cjab

Well-known member
Then you need to read the OP more carefully and not offer the junk you call evidence from your first post.
So John 5:23, 2 Tim 4:18, 1 Cor 11:3, 1 Cor 15:27, Matt 6:9-13 are junk in your gnostic view? Not even worth debating with you as you have nothing to say that is based in the bible. I have no time for gnostic teaching conflicting with the very instruction of Christ. Good day.
 
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