Men, Women, Sex and Gender

Nedsk

Well-known member
End goal for whom? The trans folks? Freedom and acceptance of whatever they want to be and do.
But no one really cares what they do it's only when they start demanding we all play along that people get angry. They don't seem to get that. It's almost as if they have this narcissistic tendency for attention. It's really a sickness.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
The crazy thing is that leftists think that somehow women should be supportive of the trans movement (welcome to the sisterhood of oppressed minorities!!!), but in reality, feminists cannot STAND the trans movement because they rightly recognize that the trans movement is actually putting MEN into women's places and that's putting women in danger. When biological males win women's scholarships and competitions and win "woman of the year" awards....I mean...feminists have a right to be upset. All that work for all those gains....in jeopardy thanks to the trans movement.
Again, this is true of SOME feminists. By no means all.
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
I post this not in the hope that any conservative 'Christians' will actually read and try to understand it. They will, of course, continue to falsely insist that the issues it discusses haven't been addressed. But this might be an easy place to bookmark and point to next time they whine about questions not having been answered.

Of course, I harbour no hope at all that any of them will actually honestly address the issue.

Humans have two sex chromosomes - they are labelled (although, of course, the labels are arbitrary) x and y. Those with two x's (i.e., XX) are biologically female; they have female genitals. Those with an x and a y (i.e., XY) are biologically male; they have male genitals*.

Each human also has an innate sense of whether they are male, female, both or neither. This is known as their 'gender' or 'gender identity'.

gender:
- either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior: the feminine gender.
- a similar category of human beings that is outside the male/female binary classification and is based on the individual's personal awareness or identity.

gender identity
a person's inner sense of being male or female, usually developed during early childhood as a result of parental rearing practices and societal influences and strengthened during puberty by hormonal changes.

Like myself, the majority of people have a gender identity that corresponds with their biological sex. Unfortunately, a significant portion of the population does not. They are biologically not female, but have a gender identity of female, for example. In some circumstances, this is labelled 'gender dysphoria'.

gender dysphoria
a psychological condition marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning, caused by a lack of congruence between gender identity and sex assigned at birth.

It is important to note that gender dysphoria is not an illness, and DSM V does not list it as one. It is also important to note that not all people whose biological sex differs from their gender identity have the condition known as gender dysphoria; gender dysphoria is, as the definition says, "marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning". We have no way of knowing how many people have a biological sex that differs from their gender identity but deal with it without their lives being "marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning".

There is no way to resolve this "lack of congruence between gender identity and sex". It can't be reasoned or counselled away; no medication 'fixes' it.

The best way to deal with this condition yet discovered is for the person with it to live, in every way feasible, as the gender as which they identify, rather than as their biological sex. Those who do this are known as 'trans'. A person who is not biologically female but lives as a female in every way feasible is a transwoman; a person who is not biologically male but lives as a male in every way feasible is a transman.

It is also customary to drop the 'trans', noting that a transwoman is a woman, and a transman is a man. It is not an attempt to deny, obliterate or denigrate the person's biological sex; it is merely to note that the way that they present themselves to the world is by their gender, rather than their biological sex. Of course, this utilises the propensity of English language words to have multiple meanings. In this case, among other meanings, 'male' (for example) can refer to a person's biological sex or to their gender, as can similar terms like 'man'. The same is true of the female versions of such words. Thus a person could be a male (biological sex) woman (gender) or a female (biological sex) man (gender).

Some have complained that in English, words cannot have multiple meanings; 'male', therefore, only and always refers to a person's biological sex. This is false both in general (huge numbers of English language words have multiple meanings) and in particular, as shown by the dictionary.

male
a: (1) : of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to produce relatively small, usually motile gametes which fertilize the eggs of a female
(2) : having or producing only stamens or staminate flowers a male holly
b : having a gender identity that is the opposite of female

In order to aid and show support for such people, large parts of society have chosen to treat such people, in every way feasible, as being of the gender as which they identify, and support their 'transitioning' from one gender to another. Thus, there is huge support for such people from large sections of society. Why anybody would object to helping others in such a way is beyond me.

*I deliberately omit from this discussion those relatively rare people who have other than XX or XY chromosomes. I do this not to ignore, denigrate or dismiss their position or minimise the problems that arise from such a situation, but rather to simplify the discussion in the hopes that the conservative 'Christians' will be able to understand it, without getting into the complexities of the various varieties of intersexed persons.
Gender is a linguistic thing (gendered words in languages like Spanish).

Gender as a social concept was invented out of whole cloth by the perverted psychologist known as John Money, who convinced parents to raise one of their sons as a girl after a botched circumcision, forced the young boy to simulate sex with his brother who hadn't had a botched circumcision, gave them 'genital inspections', and then later proclaimed it was the first successful sex reassignment (the boy lived a short life of psychological agony between the sexual abuse by the doctor and the 'reassignment' as a girl which he later found out about - both boys committed suicide).

Oh, and this is a thing he said:

"If I were to see the case of a boy aged ten or eleven who's intensely erotically attracted toward a man in his twenties or thirties, if the relationship is totally mutual, and the bonding is genuinely totally mutual [...] then I would not call it pathological in any way."

So yeah, that's where your 'gender' as a social concept came from. Real lovely.
 

Nedsk

Well-known member
What is what?
Ok I'll play this idiotic game with you. I said this:

"Ok very good. So two more questions please. "Woman" refers to gender so when a person says they are a woman what does that mean? I know it refers to gender but by declaring themselves as a woman, what is that?"

To which you replied:

"It means that they choose to live and present as a woman."


So I asked:

"What's that?"

Then we get:

"What's what?"

You tell me
From another post in this thread:

"My solution is to completely drop the men's and women's sports categories. Have one category for which only people with two X chromosomes are eligible; the other category is open to everybody."
 

Nedsk

Well-known member
What is what?
Ok I'll play this idiotic game with you. I said this:

"Ok very good. So two more questions please. "Woman" refers to gender so when a person says they are a woman what does that mean? I know it refers to gender but by declaring themselves as a woman, what is that?"

To which you replied:

"It means that they choose to live and present as a woman."


So I asked:

"What's that?"

Then we get:

"What's what?"

You tell me.

It's not to think of you as limited.
From another post in this thread:

"My solution is to completely drop the men's and women's sports categories. Have one category for which only people with two X chromosomes are eligible; the other category is open to everybody."
 

Crazy Ivan

Well-known member
Again, this is true of SOME feminists. By no means all.

Agreed. Doesn’t change the fact that the core of trans ideology runs completely counter to the core of feminists ideology. Completely at odds with one another. It’s just that some feminists don’t even see it. Or if they see it, they don’t care.
 
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BMS

Well-known member
It means that they choose to live and present as a woman.
But they aren't a woman. Its also kind of difficult to live as a woman when one is a man. For example women have different anatomy and pee differently and menstruate etc. how do you imagine a man lives as a woman?
 

BMS

Well-known member
What is what?


From another post in this thread:

"My solution is to completely drop the men's and women's sports categories. Have one category for which only people with two X chromosomes are eligible; the other category is open to everybody."
What is what?


From another post in this thread:

"My solution is to completely drop the men's and women's sports categories. Have one category for which only people with two X chromosomes are eligible; the other category is open to everybody."
What is what is what?
 

BMS

Well-known member
What is what?


From another post in this thread:

"My solution is to completely drop the men's and women's sports categories. Have one category for which only people with two X chromosomes are eligible; the other category is open to everybody."
You have that already, people with two X chromosomes are women. good idea, change it to what it already is, but imagine its not
 

Nedsk

Well-known member
You have that already, people with two X chromosomes are women. good idea, change it to what it already is, but imagine its not
No I say we go with what ES suggested. What will happen is the men will dominate and the women will get eventually get tired of always losing so they will start their own sports leagues. Everything will have a different label but we will be back to where we are right noe but the liberals will feel better about themselves and it's that a that really matters? It's all just a bunch of nonsense.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Ok I'll play this idiotic game with you. I said this:

"Ok very good. So two more questions please. "Woman" refers to gender so when a person says they are a woman what does that mean? I know it refers to gender but by declaring themselves as a woman, what is that?"

To which you replied:

"It means that they choose to live and present as a woman."


So I asked:

"What's that?"

Then we get:

"What's what?"

You tell me
You are making no sense. I know what the context is. Your "what's that?" was in response to my "It means that they choose to live and present as a woman". Again, what's what? Which word are you asking about?
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Gender is a linguistic thing (gendered words in languages like Spanish).

Gender as a social concept was invented out of whole cloth by the perverted psychologist known as John Money, who convinced parents to raise one of their sons as a girl after a botched circumcision, forced the young boy to simulate sex with his brother who hadn't had a botched circumcision, gave them 'genital inspections', and then later proclaimed it was the first successful sex reassignment (the boy lived a short life of psychological agony between the sexual abuse by the doctor and the 'reassignment' as a girl which he later found out about - both boys committed suicide).

Oh, and this is a thing he said:

"If I were to see the case of a boy aged ten or eleven who's intensely erotically attracted toward a man in his twenties or thirties, if the relationship is totally mutual, and the bonding is genuinely totally mutual [...] then I would not call it pathological in any way."

So yeah, that's where your 'gender' as a social concept came from. Real lovely.
Who cares where it came from (even if what you state above is true, about which I reserve my opinion)? The issue is what it is today.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Agreed. Doesn’t change the fact that the core of trans ideology runs completely counter to the core of feminists ideology. Completely at odds with one another. It’s just that some feminists don’t even see it. Or if they see it, they don’t care.
No, the "core of trans ideology" does not run completely (or even partially or obliquely) "counter to the core of feminists idealogy, nor are they completely at odds with one another. That's completely nonsense which you cannot support.

By and large, feminists are supportive of the trans movement, because they know that it's not remotely counter to feminism.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
That is all BS by science-denying idiots. Flat earth fools. Making America look stupid to the world.
Except that it's not remotely science-denying nor have (or can) you or anyone else show that it is.

And I'll point out - yet again - that the rest of the western world is far more liberal than the US and what makes America look stupid to the world (whether that opinion of theirs is justified or not) are things on the conservative side, like Trumpism and creationism.
 

BMS

Well-known member
You are making no sense. I know what the context is. Your "what's that?" was in response to my "It means that they choose to live and present as a woman". Again, what's what? Which word are you asking about?
So he showing you that you are making no sense. A person choosing to live as the opposite sex doesn't make that person the opposite sex.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Except that it's not remotely science-denying nor have (or can) you or anyone else show that it is.

And I'll point out - yet again - that the rest of the western world is far more liberal than the US and what makes America look stupid to the world (whether that opinion of theirs is justified or not) are things on the conservative side, like Trumpism and creationism.
Yes your ideology denies science. The biological sex is male and female, man and woman, a person's gender therefore cannot be the opposite of their biological sex because biological sex is immutable
 
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