Mercy.

5wize

Well-known member
Kwame Ajamu was 17 years old when he was found guilty of murder and sentenced to die because of the mistaken testimony of a 13 yr. old child - testimony that the child later attempted to recant. Not a shred of evidence, forensic or physical connected Kwame to the crime. He had no previous record. Another witness said Kwame was not at the place of the crime.

"I did not understand what was happening to me or how it could happen. I prayed to God for mercy, but soon it dawned on me that no mercy was coming".

182 people sent to death row since 1973 were found to be innocent after the fact.

What rule of God would have been violated if He were to employ His mercy in these specific instances and turn the injustice into justice?

Free will? There is no free will argument that applies.

Original sin? Nothing in the fall dictated God not actively practice mercy and justice in His creation.

What violation would God be engaged in if He were to fold these tortured situations of earthy injustice into justice?

Better question - What would it promote in us to see a such an expression of justice from Him in these instances?
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
Kwame Ajamu was 17 years old when he was found guilty of murder and sentenced to die because of the mistaken testimony of a 13 yr. old child - testimony that the child later attempted to recant. Not a shred of evidence, forensic or physical connected Kwame to the crime. He had no previous record. Another witness said Kwame was not at the place of the crime.

"I did not understand what was happening to me or how it could happen. I prayed to God for mercy, but soon it dawned on me that no mercy was coming".

182 people sent to death row since 1973 were found to be innocent after the fact.

What rule of God would have been violated if He were to employ His mercy in these specific instances and turn the injustice into justice?
The Good God’s mercy is to save the soul, ultimately renew the world, and put those souls in it that deserve eternal life. If God hat intervened to save this individual, then you would just present another list of individuals. If he had saved those then you would condemn him for the earthquake, the volcano, the pandemic, the asteroid, etc. —you don’t see it, but the ONLY fix comes when the cosmos is remade. Anything less than that is just a band-aid over an open wound.

This world in its current form is wounded and the medicine is to refashion a new body (from the old sickly body), a perfect, highly organized body that can produce eternal life for the souls that will be produced there.

In case you condemn God for not making the world perfect in the first place,I would add, He did. The world was perfect, and highly organized and arguably intelligent before it corrupted its wisdom, suffered a perturbation, died, and “burned to ashes (matter/flesh)”. First life on this planet was an act of mercy for the world that he loved but it won’t be the last. For by it, he sends his Wisdom to make it new in us and ultimately return everything (the body) to what it was in the beginning. Thus the end will be as the beginning.

From this explanation, is all the answers to man’s accusations against God. Moreover, all of it is in harmony with what we know about our actual past, our present, and arguably our future. It is irrefutable.

Free will? There is no free will argument that applies.
The individual can choose to trust the one who has ultimate power to renew life in a future state just as he had power to produce first life on this planet from a lifeless cosmos. This man’s fate in this world is not unique for it is appointed that each human will die, then the eternal life For those who love God.

Original sin? Nothing in the fall dictated God not actively practice mercy and justice in His creation.

Mercy is here and now when he allows you to accuse him after giving you self awareness and sending people your way who can refute your accusations. But you will CHOOSE to ignore it because you don’t want anything to do with his mercy, love, temperance, good, truth, and salvation.
What violation would God be engaged in if He were to fold these tortured situations of earthy injustice into justice?
Justice will come for all and it will come against the flesh, all flesh, because that is where the works of the adversary originate: inordinate desires, fits of anger, lies, pride, etc. Justice will come for all because ultimately the new world will not be made of flesh but lifeforms (“spiritual bodies”) based on Energy (E= mc*c), perfectly ordered, and ruled by Wisdom to produce eternal life.
Better question - What would it promote in us to see a such an expression of justice from Him in these instances?
God works through his spirit to produce good in a world and salvation in a new world. Since you refuse to recognize an intrinsic good active in the world, then you still look for your flesh to survive, which is why you condemn him. News flash! The material world to include all flesh is in a corrupted form and is temporary in order that the we can draw to the good. Absent that the flesh cannot be saved in its current form. That applies to everyone. Until you realize that you are asking God to do what God has found unjust to do, that is, allow flesh to continue in its current suffering state for eternity. It is in his justice and mercy that he will not allow that to happen. He will renew it and fill it with the souls who have lived virtuous lives and believed in the good God.


5, you have all the answers you need, so there is no excuse for your continued blaming God for suffering and death. This time now is for drawing near to the Savior but you choose rather to reject him.
 
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5wize

Well-known member
The Good God’s mercy is to save the soul, ultimately renew the world, and put those souls in it that deserve eternal life. If God hat intervened to save this individual, then you would just present another list of individuals. If he had saved those then you would condemn him for the earthquake, the volcano, the pandemic, the asteroid, etc. —you don’t see it, but the ONLY fix comes when the cosmos is remade. Anything less than that is just a band-aid over an open wound.

This world in its current form is wounded and the medicine is to refashion a new body (from the old sickly body), a perfect, highly organized body that can produce eternal life for the souls that will be produced there.
The question isn't about me, it's about God and it is focused on mercy and justice in the situation outlined. Remake the cosmos? Go ahead then God, do it. Waiting for us? Good luck with that.
In case you condemn God for not making the world perfect in the first place,I would add, He did. The world was perfect, and highly organized and arguably intelligent before it corrupted its wisdom, suffered a perturbation, died, and “burned to ashes (matter/flesh)”. First life on this planet was an act of mercy for the world that he loved but it won’t be the last. For by it, he sends his Wisdom to make it new in us and ultimately return everything (the body) to what it was in the beginning. Thus the end will be as the beginning.
Mercy and justice does not entail a perfect world. It simply entails a world where whatever happens, good or bad, there is mercy and justice applied as surely as the laws of logic are. There is no violation of human free will for what we are told encompasses the nature and will of God.
From this explanation, is all the answers to man’s accusations against God. Moreover, all of it is in harmony with what we know about our actual past, our present, and arguably our future. It is irrefutable.


The individual can choose to trust the one who has ultimate power to renew life in a future state just as he had power to produce first life on this planet from a lifeless cosmos. This man’s fate in this world is not unique for it is appointed that each human will die, then the eternal life For those who love God.

Mercy is here and now when he allows you to accuse him after giving you self awareness and sending people your way who can refute your accusations. But you will CHOOSE to ignore it because you don’t want anything to do with his mercy, love, temperance, good, truth, and salvation.

Justice will come for all and it will come against the flesh, all flesh, because that is where the works of the adversary originate: inordinate desires, fits of anger, lies, pride, etc. Justice will come for all because ultimately the new world will not be made of flesh but lifeforms (“spiritual bodies”) based on Energy (E= mc*c), perfectly ordered, and ruled by Wisdom to produce eternal life.

God works through his spirit to produce good in a world and salvation in a new world. Since you refuse to recognize an intrinsic good active in the world, then you still look for your flesh to survive, which is why you condemn him. News flash! The material world to include all flesh is in a corrupted form and is temporary in order that the we can draw to the good. Absent that the flesh cannot be saved in its current form. That applies to everyone. Until you realize that you are asking God to do what God has found unjust to do, that is, allow flesh to continue in its current suffering state for eternity. It is in his justice and mercy that he will not allow that to happen. He will renew it and fill it with the souls who have lived virtuous lives and believed in the good God.


5, you have all the answers you need, so there is no excuse for your continued blaming God for suffering and death. This time now is for drawing near to the Savior but you choose rather to reject him.
That is the compensating myth to this simple question that confounded the Gnostic tradition. It does not answer the question however as to why the earth is not endowed with a mechanism for mercy and justice. Again, we are not asking for a perfect world where everything the Jews thought about themselves came to pass. We're talking about the proposed nature of God be manifest in it. Absent that, the choice is that God does not exist, or we invent a world where He does since it's not here. As a result Gnosticism seems like one of the biggest God equivocations invented.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
The question isn't about me, it's about God and it is focused on mercy and justice in the situation outlined. Remake the cosmos? Go ahead then God, do it. Waiting for us? Good luck with that.

Mercy and justice does not entail a perfect world.
Right, so until the perfect world comes, we must enact justice and mercy as best we can based on justice, truth, love, mercy, etc. And that can occur through the rulers over us (if they are just and good). If they are tyrants and unjust, and they kill us, then submit one's soul to God who is preparing a better place for us.

Romans 13
(1) "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
(2) Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
(3) For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
(4) for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For
he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

It simply entails a world where whatever happens, good or bad, there is mercy and justice applied as surely as the laws of logic are.
And we can do that as best we can until the perfect world comes.
There is no violation of human free will for what we are told encompasses the nature and will of God.

That is the compensating myth to this simple question that confounded the Gnostic tradition. It does not answer the question however as to why the earth is not endowed with a mechanism for mercy and justice.
Your life is a perfect example of mercy but you don't value life as intrinsically good (you said so yourself) so you choose error and nihilism. Your mind is in darkness because you refuse to see the good active in the cosmos.
Again, we are not asking for a perfect world where everything the Jews thought about themselves came to pass. We're talking about the proposed nature of God be manifest in it.
He is manifest in it as the virtues, not only in us, but active in the cosmos itself, beginning with first life a billion years ago, which you deny was a good thing. The fact of the matter is that the first life a billion years ago happened for a reason. There was nothing spontaneous about it. Something caused it to happen at that time and in that place. No rational person on the planet can deny that.
Absent that, the choice is that God does not exist, or we invent a world where He does since it's not here.
...Or 3) you CHOOSE not see the active good (God) in the cosmos.
As a result Gnosticism seems like one of the biggest God equivocations invented.
All gnosticism does is interpret the secret, hidden meaning IN SCRIPTURE. I could throw gnosticism out the window and give you the same answers using ONLY evidence and reason from our cosmos, based on scientific evidence alone. The benefit of the scriptures is to demonstrate that this knowledge was known up to five thousand years ago. A-theists are always asking for evidence. This would be that evidence because if theists knew five thousand years ago concepts about our cosmos that were only proven in our generation then that suggests foreknowledge. The details would have to be expanded and that is what I am currently investigating on my own.

BTW, thanks for being civil and rational. I am human, and I get tired of rhetoric as much as anyone.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
Kwame Ajamu was 17 years old when he was found guilty of murder and sentenced to die because of the mistaken testimony of a 13 yr. old child - testimony that the child later attempted to recant. Not a shred of evidence, forensic or physical connected Kwame to the crime. He had no previous record. Another witness said Kwame was not at the place of the crime.

"I did not understand what was happening to me or how it could happen. I prayed to God for mercy, but soon it dawned on me that no mercy was coming".

182 people sent to death row since 1973 were found to be innocent after the fact.

What rule of God would have been violated if He were to employ His mercy in these specific instances and turn the injustice into justice?

Free will? There is no free will argument that applies.

Original sin? Nothing in the fall dictated God not actively practice mercy and justice in His creation.

What violation would God be engaged in if He were to fold these tortured situations of earthy injustice into justice?

Better question - What would it promote in us to see a such an expression of justice from Him in these instances?
Looking through the bible, all kinds of heinous crimes have been committed against innocent people, who committed no crime at all.
I think perhaps the most prominent is the new testament narrative of the young males, who were under 2 years of age....

their only crime was being alive, in a specific town, at a specific time in history, and the reason was because a jealous, and petty despot was trying to protect his throne from being taken from him.
The despot?
Herod the Great.
The intended victim?
Jesus, as a newborn child.
the actual victims--- all the males below 2 years of age, in the town of Bethlehem.

God has given the responsibility for planet earth, and its governance over to the human race.
There have only been a few times where he's intervened in the affairs of men, and based on the comments on this forum, it's pretty clear atheists resent God's interventions.

It shouldn't have been done.

It should've been handled differently.

Should've let man well-enough alone, and work it out for themselves......

Throughout history, all kinds of evil rulers have slaughtered their own citizens, simply because they didn't know how to govern so many, and used their beliefs as justification to do so.
The most prominent in modern history are the likes of--- Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mussolini, Xi, Saddam Husssein, and more.
One Wikipedia article I'd read a decade ago said upwards of 500 million people had been slaughtered in government sanctioned genocides. This is from ancient history through to 2010.


So..... why hasn';t God stepped in, and spared the lives of these "innocents" you're talking about?

Someone asked Jesus that too.... Apparently there were a couple of local events that took place in the then not too distantly, previous past.

Some people asked him about these events, and his response was rather poignant.....

1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”​

I know there are several books written on this topic of justice, fairness, and mercy.

Keep in mind here that the people who asked JEsus about this are "God's Chosen" people.
In WWII Nazi Germany, the people whom Hitler decided to slaughter were God's Chosen People. The Jewish/Hebrew people.

In short, Jesus tells them--- it's not fair. But don't worry about them--- take responsibility for yourself. Unless YOU repent, you too will perish.

One guy I ran across the other day made a comment to someone who asked him--- where's God in all this covid stuff? Why hasn't he stepped in and saved us from it?


His response was----

This is what happens when you kick God to the curb, and say--- "no thanks. We've got this. Besides, we don't believe you are real, so meh!"

I'm not entirely sure that's a "kind" way to deal with it, but there is truth to it.

Jesus said--- God gives rain to the just and unjust. He causes the sun to shine on the just and the unjust.
Paul said in Acts 14, that God shows his goodness in that he gives us food in season, gives us gladness, and goodness in life.

In Acts 17, he makes a slightly different, but similar statement.

There's a day coming--- the schedule has already been determined--- when God will right all the wrongs, rectify all the injustices, etc... of each and every single person who has ever lived, and will every live, in the as yet undefined future.

If you want mercy, then turn to God, from your sin, and place your trust in Jesus.

If you want others to also have mercy, then encourage them to turn to God, from their sin, and place their trust in Jesus.

We're all in exactly the same boat as each other on this one.

Failure to do so will result in a judgment far worse than the cruelest treatments this world could ever dish out.

And the final justice will be 100% just.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Looking through the bible, all kinds of heinous crimes have been committed against innocent people, who committed no crime at all.
I think perhaps the most prominent is the new testament narrative of the young males, who were under 2 years of age....

their only crime was being alive, in a specific town, at a specific time in history, and the reason was because a jealous, and petty despot was trying to protect his throne from being taken from him.
The despot?
Herod the Great.
The intended victim?
Jesus, as a newborn child.
the actual victims--- all the males below 2 years of age, in the town of Bethlehem.

God has given the responsibility for planet earth, and its governance over to the human race.
There have only been a few times where he's intervened in the affairs of men, and based on the comments on this forum, it's pretty clear atheists resent God's interventions.

It shouldn't have been done.

It should've been handled differently.

Should've let man well-enough alone, and work it out for themselves......

Throughout history, all kinds of evil rulers have slaughtered their own citizens, simply because they didn't know how to govern so many, and used their beliefs as justification to do so.
The most prominent in modern history are the likes of--- Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mussolini, Xi, Saddam Husssein, and more.
One Wikipedia article I'd read a decade ago said upwards of 500 million people had been slaughtered in government sanctioned genocides. This is from ancient history through to 2010.


So..... why hasn';t God stepped in, and spared the lives of these "innocents" you're talking about?

Someone asked Jesus that too.... Apparently there were a couple of local events that took place in the then not too distantly, previous past.

Some people asked him about these events, and his response was rather poignant.....

1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”​

I know there are several books written on this topic of justice, fairness, and mercy.

Keep in mind here that the people who asked JEsus about this are "God's Chosen" people.
In WWII Nazi Germany, the people whom Hitler decided to slaughter were God's Chosen People. The Jewish/Hebrew people.

In short, Jesus tells them--- it's not fair. But don't worry about them--- take responsibility for yourself. Unless YOU repent, you too will perish.

One guy I ran across the other day made a comment to someone who asked him--- where's God in all this covid stuff? Why hasn't he stepped in and saved us from it?


His response was----

This is what happens when you kick God to the curb, and say--- "no thanks. We've got this. Besides, we don't believe you are real, so meh!"

I'm not entirely sure that's a "kind" way to deal with it, but there is truth to it.

Jesus said--- God gives rain to the just and unjust. He causes the sun to shine on the just and the unjust.
Paul said in Acts 14, that God shows his goodness in that he gives us food in season, gives us gladness, and goodness in life.

In Acts 17, he makes a slightly different, but similar statement.

There's a day coming--- the schedule has already been determined--- when God will right all the wrongs, rectify all the injustices, etc... of each and every single person who has ever lived, and will every live, in the as yet undefined future.

If you want mercy, then turn to God, from your sin, and place your trust in Jesus.

If you want others to also have mercy, then encourage them to turn to God, from their sin, and place their trust in Jesus.

We're all in exactly the same boat as each other on this one.

Failure to do so will result in a judgment far worse than the cruelest treatments this world could ever dish out.

And the final justice will be 100% just.
Those situations were willful actions to do wrong. This category is different in that everybody thought they were doing the right thing.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Those situations were willful actions to do wrong. This category is different in that everybody thought they were doing the right thing.
Agreed.

That said, here's a passage from Ecclesiastes 9:2

Because to all there is one event, to the upright man and to the evil, to the clean and to the unclean, to him who makes an offering and to him who makes no offering; as is the good so is the sinner; he who takes an oath is as he who has fear of it.

This is one of those--- it's just the way life is--- kind of things.

My dermatologist deliberately misdiagnosed me for reasons I can only speculate about.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Agreed.

That said, here's a passage from Ecclesiastes 9:2

Because to all there is one event, to the upright man and to the evil, to the clean and to the unclean, to him who makes an offering and to him who makes no offering; as is the good so is the sinner; he who takes an oath is as he who has fear of it.

This is one of those--- it's just the way life is--- kind of things.

My dermatologist deliberately misdiagnosed me for reasons I can only speculate about.
So we agree that these things happen. And we agree there is no discernable intervention by God to right these events. And this post isn't a childish complaint about the neglect of God. It's a specific set of questions based on the facts whose answers may help us discern the nature of the God that Christians believe in:

What violation would God be engaged in if He were to fold these tortured situations of earthy injustice into justice?

Better question - What would it promote in us to see a such an expression of justice from Him in these instances?
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Looking through the bible, all kinds of heinous crimes have been committed against innocent people, who committed no crime at all.
I think perhaps the most prominent is the new testament narrative of the young males, who were under 2 years of age....
I think the most prominent is the Flood. Again all the young males who were under 2 were killed, but it was across the entire world, not just a single town. Also all the females. Also everyone who was over 2, except 8 people.
 

Hypatia_Alexandria

Well-known member
Looking through the bible, all kinds of heinous crimes have been committed against innocent people, who committed no crime at all.
I think perhaps the most prominent is the new testament narrative of the young males, who were under 2 years of age....

their only crime was being alive, in a specific town, at a specific time in history, and the reason was because a jealous, and petty despot was trying to protect his throne from being taken from him.
The despot?
Herod the Great.
The intended victim?
Jesus, as a newborn child.
the actual victims--- all the males below 2 years of age, in the town of Bethlehem.
Unfortunately the event never happened. Josephus lists all Herod's brutalities and that one is not mentioned.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Absurd logic. Prove Josephus' list is exhaustive.
That's alright... he missed the census too, oh and the wise men's visit..., oh, and the escape to Egypt.

All issues of Herod's state surrounding an entity that was thought to depose him. Small stuff.
 
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5wize

Well-known member
And Socrates' suicide. And the Big Bang. And the guest list at Herod's wedding.
None of which are matters of state. But a king born to depose Herod, one that the Magi informed the court of Herod about which sent Herod's own prophets scurrying to scripture only to say "Ooop's .... sorry boss, we seemed to have missed this one. We'll get on it right away!"

Phhhffffftttt....
 
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stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
None of which are matters of state. But a king born to depose Herod, one that the Magi informed the court of Herod about which sent Herod's own prophets scurrying to scripture only to say "Ooop's .... sorry boss, we seemed to have missed this one. We'll get on it right away!"

Phhhffffftttt....

Does dispensing poor logic always make you fart? Concluding that X COULD NOT have happened because Y doesn't mention it is just downright dumb.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Does dispensing poor logic always make you fart? Concluding that X COULD NOT have happened because Y doesn't mention it is just downright dumb.
Not as dumb as believing that major events like Herod killing all the children of 2 years or less throughout Judea would skip all cultural histories. Now that defines a dumb beyond the poor logic required to conclude it.

You do know that it is trivial to look up that Herod did in fact order the death of all male lineal successors of the Hasmoneans, right?
 

5wize

Well-known member
Well, I would be inclined to consider that, but I have to agree with Stigg's here..... demonstrate that Jo's list is comprehensive.
Jo's list already includes this type of history as applied to other cultures, namely Herod's order of the death of all male lineal successors of the Hasmoneans. It defies reason that Josephus would miss such an order and mass execution against his own people yet be so diligent to get the Hasmonean history recorded. Josephus was a Jewish historian.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Not as dumb as believing that major events like Herod killing all the children of 2 years or less throughout Judea would skip all cultural histories. Now that defines a dumb beyond the poor logic required to conclude it.

You do know that it is trivial to look up that Herod did in fact order the death of all male lineal successors of the Hasmoneans, right?

Stick with farting in defense of your lousy logic. Much less verbose.
 
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