Miracles Have Ceased

Kade Rystalmane

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member

1 Corinthians 12-14 – Miracles: Distribution, Duration, and Proper Use​

As Paul tends to write in what has been divided into three chapter arcs, and this one is particularly pronounced, I wanted to handle all three of these chapters together in a single post.

I also see a lot of confusion about miracles in the world today about miracles. A lot of folks still think they have the ability to perform these miracles (or that God performs them through them as we see recorded throughout the NT). So I will spend some significant time, not only on the apocalyptic material in these three chapters, but addressing miracles accurately.

1 Corinthians 12 – Distribution of Miracles ​

Paul transitions from speaking about the Lord’s Supper to talking about “spiritual gifts”, i.e. what we call miracles. Just a quick note about miracles: a miracle as used in scripture is a supernatural act of God used for the express purpose of confirming that whatever is being spoken is from God (Mark 16:20; Heb. 2:3-4). E.g. birth is not a miracle, it is a natural process.

1 Corinthians 12:1-3​

“1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”

In this transition, Paul lays out a foundation for why he is writing. These Christians are largely Gentile in origin and pagan in their former lives. Their understanding of miracles is based on the baggage they bring with them from their former pagan religions. [Much like folks today who bring baggage with them from the denominations and so their understanding of miracles is in error.]

He then writes words that John parallels in his smaller letters, a basic litmus test for determining who is from God and who not. Judiazers would be wont to call Jesus accursed and would not recognize Him as the Lord. Pagan idolaters as well. If at the very least someone comes along and says Jesus is accursed or will not acknowledge Him as God, that person is not to be listened to no matter what miracles they appear to perform. Remember, Simon the Sorcerer (Acts 8) deceived a lot of people by his magic tricks. When Peter and John performed real wonders, Simon even recognized the power and obeyed the gospel. However, he still had some baggage (Acts 8:18-24).

This is not the end all test, however, because there will certainly be folks who acknowledge Jesus is Lord, even demons (Mark 5:2-7). The whole Bible provides the ultimate litmus test for us to try the spirits whether they be of God (1 John 4:1)

1 Corinthians 12:4-11

“Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.”

God is not a respecter of individuals (Acts 10:34). However, He understands that individuals are different, have different needs and talents. He provided in this time of miracles according to the needs of the church and the individuals. Paul explains here that the miracles are divvied up as God sees fit for the health of the whole church/body.

1 Corinthians 12:12-26​

“12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked. 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.”

This is an expansion on the thought that God nurtures the body as necessary, knowing that the body has different members with different needs and functions. We can’t all be preachers or even teachers. We can’t all be elders or apostles (which office no longer even exists). Each role exists “that the members should have the same care one for another”. In the same manner, each miracle was given to different individuals to best suit the congregation in which they were a member.

An important note, though. With regard to immersion into Christ: I did a long study on Romans 6 and the type of immersion that saves us. Eph. 4 teaches that there is only one Christian immersion by the time Paul writes the letter, meaning that any others pertaining to becoming a Christian are gone. I wrote how in Romans 6, this immersion was a command to be obeyed and so how this could not be immersion in the Holy Spirit since no one can obey the command. Here in 12:13 we see “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” This is not denoting the element we are surrounded by when we are immersed. It is speaking of the Holy Spirit as the immerse, ultimately the one who does the immersing if it is done right because the immersing is done according to the Word which the Holy Spirit inspired to be written. This verse is echoed in Eph. 5:26.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31​

“Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.”

Paul then compares the diversity of gifts to the diversity of offices. He teaches that it is okay to desire the best gifts, so long as they understand what the best gifts are (which are those that edify the church rather than aggrandize self).

However, at the very end of this thought, Paul says he is going to show them a more excellent way. A more excellent way than what the miracles can achieve. A way measured by the complete standard that is the revealed Word of God.
 

1 Corinthians 13 – Duration of Miracles ​

Many people call this chapter “the Great Chapter of Love”. Those that do so, miss the point and ignore the context entirely. While there is some good stuff on agape/love in this chapter, it is set up as a foil for miracles to better understand the nature of miracles.

1 Corinthians 13:1-7​

“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.”

Miracles are useful, but when performed without love, they are useless. The church had been using the miracles the way they had as pagans, lifting themselves up and drawing attention to themselves instead of edifying the church. The pagans do all the things opposite of agape/love. So if you are doing it like the pagans, you’re doing it wrong is what Paul is writing.

An interesting aside here about mechanical instruments. Tongues is simply another word for languages. It is a means of conveying information. Paul writes that if one speaks with the language of men and messengers of God and does so without love, they are as effective communicating as sounding brass or crashing cymbals. Folks, mechanical instruments (and yes, this includes clapping) convey zero doctrinal information. Since singing is for the purpose of conveying information, teaching, admonition, reminding us of those doctrines, mechanical instruments are a Satanic addition to the worship of God by man in his arrogance, thinking he knows better than God. They are for the selfish purpose of entertainment, of making the singing sound better physically to human ears.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10​

“Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

Here is the meat of the thought of this chapter.
  1. Agape never fails – this is the foil I spoke of. Love doesn’t fail, but miracles do. The stated purpose of miracles was to confirm that what was being taught was from God (Mark 16:20; Heb. 2:1-4). The miracles listed here, then, are representative of all miracles, especially in that they are the miracles related to conveying information from God. All of them will fail or cease.
  2. Of a type – it is imperative to note that the three miracles listed by Paul here as representative of all miracles are of a single type. They are all means of conveying doctrinal information. Whatever “that which is perfect” is, must be of the same type for the comparison to have meaning. “That which is perfect” is also a means of conveying doctrinal information or this contrast makes no sense.
  3. Contra-comparison – prophecies, languages, miraculous knowledge – all means of conveying doctrinal information – are partial, incomplete, subperfect. However, there is coming a means of conveying doctrinal information that is whole, complete, perfect. When that which is perfect arrives, the partial means of conveying doctrinal information will be done away with.
  4. Complete means – the only complete means of conveying doctrinal information is the Bible. It thoroughly furnishes us to every good work (2 Tim. 3:16-17), it is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16) and it is the source of faith (Romans 10:17), not miracles. It saves (James 1:21).
  5. Conclusion – when the NT was fully delivered (2 Pet. 1:3; Jude 3), the purpose of miracles (confirmation of the Word) would end and so miracles would cease. I personally believe that his happened naturally. The apostles alone could pass on the ability to do miracles by the laying on of their hands. John was the last apostle to die. After the last person the apostles laid hands on to pass on miracles died, miracles were no longer seen in the world, at least not performed by men. Some might argue that miracles ceased after the end of the Jewish Wars or with the fall of Jerusalem (which is how this directly connects to the overall point of this blog). However, I firmly believe that a number of inspired letters of the Bible were written well after that event, which alone confirms that miracles had not ceased yet. John, 1st, 2nd, 3rd John, and Jude were all written after the fall of Jerusalem.

1 Corinthians 13:11-13​

“When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”

In closing this thought, Paul says that miracles are like child’s toys. They were for the infancy of the church while it was maturing, being established. When the church was grown up, when it was matured and fully established, it was time to put away the child’s toys. Those today who still think that they perform miracles or that miracles still take place need to put away the childish things and spiritually grow up.

Paul writes that we see our reflection poorly in the mirror in the time of miracles. This is because the mirror of the partial means was a poor mirror. However, when the standard of righteousness is fully delivered, we will see clearly because the mirror is clear. It would be possible to hold their lives up to the whole Bible, the whole standard, to clearly see if they measure up. This is the better way he spoke of transitioning from distribution to duration of miracles in 12:31.

He ends this point by saying that faith, and hope, and agape (love) are those things that endure. The greatest though is agape because one day, even faith and hope will be gone, replaced by direct experience and the thing hoped for…being in the presence of God in Heaven.
 

1 Corinthians 14 – Proper Use of Miracles ​

For this chapter, all of the words supplied by the translators (not in the original Greek) are bolded. There is a purpose for which I have done this which will become evident soon (that means in a short amount of time for you millennialists, idealists, and historicists ;) ). Paul has transitioned then from speaking of the temporary nature of miracles to their practical and proper use by members of the church. Remember, the more excellent way is coming and he is preparing them for that even now.

1 Corinthians 14:1-4 ​

“Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.”

Instead of doing things the way the pagans do with their magic, the Christians were to "pursue agape (love)" and desire spiritual things, and above all others, the ability to prophesy. The translation of this chapter is, sub par in the KJV.

"Rather" should be translated "moreso" or "above all". Paul will tell us why by comparing prophesy, the miracle Christians of that day should have sought above all, with speaking in a foreign language, the one they should have sought least, but were putting at the top of the list. Looking back to Acts 2, we see that the miracle of tongues was not speaking in some language that nobody knew. It was speaking in a foreign language that the speaker never learned. A list is given in that chapter.

Because folks take the word aggelos and think it always means someone like Gabriel, they think that "speaking with the language of men and of messengers (aggelos)" (13:1) means speaking in some kind of Heavenly language. The word "unknown" was added by the translators to support this erroneous view. It is never in the original text. This is all about speaking in the language of foreigners. Nothing more. Those who speak in this fake (yes, fake...I'm pulling no punches here) heavenly language totally have this entire chapter backwards. They are doing it to make themselves look cool/great/something special to visitors and maybe to each other. In so doing, they are doing exactly what Paul said not to. They are not doing anything out of agape. They are "edifying themselves".

Here is the real breakdown of these few verses. Those who speak in foreign languages miraculously when no one can understand (because there's no interpreter...see below), can only converse with God (like we do when we pray silently). If I pray in Sindarin, which most of you I am willing to hypothesize don't speak, only God and I are gonna understand. How does that help anyone else? And since its a language the speaker hasn't learned, how is even the speaker going to understand? He is speaking "mysteries", things that are not understood. They are making themselves look good whereas those who prophesy, lift up the whole assembly.

1 Corinthians 14:5-9 ​

“5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air."

Paul then says that he would like that they all spoke in different languages, but moreso (translated rather in the KJV) that they all prophesied. The one that prophesies is greater (has the greater miracle) than the one who speaks in a foreign language when there is no interpreter because the one who prophesies edifies the whole assembly. Again Paul contrasts against mechanical instruments. He says they are things "without life giving sound". What is a "life giving sound"? We read that the words that Christ spoke are life (John 6:63, 68). It is the doctrine of Christ that gives life (James 1:21) and it is only through the voice that we can hear the gospel (Romans 10:17) and be saved. Mechanical instruments in worship are as useless as speaking miraculously in a foreign language without an interpreter and has the same effect/drive...its all about self, wherein lies sin.

Since mechanical instruments do not give "life giving sounds", sounds to convey words, thoughts, and ideas, we have to assign meaning to them. Three short sounds of a certain kind on a horn means charge. Two long sounds to retreat. Or whatever, but without even that, there is naught but confusion on the battle field. So it is with this speaking in tongues that so many are fascinated with today. What makes it worse is that they don't even understand what it is they are doing. They speak in this fake, gibberish language without interpretation, or with random stuff they make up that is contrary to the Bible's teaching. All they do by this is make it harder to convert people to Christ because most can see them for the deceivers they are. Paul would speak to them with new information from God, miraculous knowledge, revelation, doctrine, or prophesy. That information is important to them and so the ability to convey it needs to be clear, to be understood by all in the assembly, especially the visitors.

1 Corinthians 14:10-14 ​


"10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

This word voice (φωνή - phone) here is like a distinct sound and I believe representative of the physical form of "word" rather than logos (λόγος, which is the meaning behind the word. Above, in verse 7, Paul says that instruments are without "life giving sound (phone)". He contrasts this with phthoggos, which is a musical note above. Here, phthoggos is not in the context of what he is saying with regard to there being so many kinds of sounds in the world. He is talking about the life giving sounds, the words, which have meanings.

He writes then, that when those present don't understand the words, Paul would be like a barbarian (a foreigner, one who did not speak the Koine Greek) or that others who spoke without interpretation would be like barbarians to him. Paul writes that they are zealous of that which is spiritual, but they should always seek after that which lifts up the whole congregation, not self. To this end, Paul encourages them to pray that they have the miracle of interpretation.

Verse 14 is a very powerful verse in its content. It teaches a number of things:
  1. A person can pray using the miracle of languages.
  2. A person who prays using the miracle of languages, prays with their spirit, but even the one praying has no understanding of what they are praying!
  3. It is possible to pray, to pray with the spirit specifically, and not know exactly what you are praying for.
This harkens back to what I wrote in Romans 8 concerning the human spirit in verses 26-27. It backs up what I wrote about concerning not knowing what to pray for and our spiritual self interceding on our behalf. Ultimately though, Paul is iterating the point that speaking in languages that nobody understands is useless and essentially showboating.
 

1 Corinthians 14:15-19 ​


"15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."

The proper way, then, is to pray with the spirit and with understanding. That means that the spiritual part of self is involved, not just the physical self. It also means, however, understanding what you pray for. Without either one, then this is where the grandstanding comes in, the making yourself look important in front of others Same is true with the singing. Singing has to be done not to sound good in front of others, but in an effort to communicate "life giving words", doctrine, to those around you. It needs to be about worshiping God and edifying the church, not sounding good, being entertained/ing, and making self look good. Paul argues that a person cannot agree with (say Amen) you if he can't understand you.

Agreement, that unity of mind, is what Paul wrote of in chapter 1. That's why he says that even though Paul speaks with more languages than all of them, but would rather speak five words (logos) that he understands that he might teach others, then ten thousand words (logos) that nobody can understand.

"20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."

Paul encourages them to be adults about this, not with malice as some adults can be when being corrected or about things they are jealous for.
  • He quotes scripture writing: "In the Law it is written", yet interestingly enough he quotes Isaiah 28:11. Indicating that the Jews considered not just the Torah (the books of Moses) as God's Law, but the entire OT.
Paul quotes Isaiah which reads: "with another tongue will he speak to this people." The indication here is foreign languages. I may look at this next part a bit different than some. I believe Paul is saying that those who are not Christians would put more stock in the ability to speak in foreign languages than what Christians should. This is born out by the example he gives. If a non-Christian walks into the assembly and everybody is speaking in different languages, they will think that everyone there is crazy.

Folks, I've done this. I've walked in to congregations of the Charismatics when they are all speaking in their gibberish...and yeah, I thought/think they are all crazy, rightfully so. However, if someone from the outside comes in and folks are teaching doctrine, that's a conveyance of information, the weightier matters of the gospel. They will hear and by exercise of reason, will be converted.

1 Corinthians 14:26-33 ​

"26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

In this section, Paul speaks of doing things in a decent and orderly fashion. They were coming together and trying to one-up each other with their miracles. Paul writes that in order for them to do so in the pursuit of agape, they should take turns, only have two or three speaking while someone interprets. However, if there is no one that can interpret let them keep silent in the assembly. This is not a blanket injunction for them not to speak, but to not speak in a way that is drawing attention to self and trying to usurp everyone else.

Same thing for the prophets. It's also important to note that those who performed the miracles had complete control over their miraculous ability. It was not, as some teach today, an uncontrollable urge or prompting by the Holy Spirit. God is not of chaos, but peace. Christians should emulate this and seek the betterment of others above themselves, pursue agape.

1 Corinthians 14:34-40​

“34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.”

This is not a stand alone excerpt about women. This is in the same exact vein as the speaking in languages or prophesying. Paul is writing that to maintain order, the women should keep silence in the assemblies the same way miracle workers should keep silent. It's not a blanket statement (else women could not sing either). It is about the women who would seek to agrandize themselves above others, to usurp the authority of the men (1 Tim. 2:12). Such a woman needs to be silent and ask her questions of her husband at home. Women who speak out in the assembly in the same way that those who were abusing the tongues miracle or even the prophesy miracle to make themselves look good are shameful.

Now, if to you, this passage means that women should be utterly silent (except for singing and perhaps saying the occasional Amen and responding to direct questions from the preacher or the guy giving announcements), then do not violate your conscience. However, I recommend deeper study of the passage in context before condemning others who don't hold to such a blanket understanding of women and silence in the assemblies.

Paul ends this section by writing that his commandments on these things are from Jesus. If there were those who chose to be contrary after all this instruction, to remain in ignorance and error on this, then let them be. Don't follow after them. They, however, should be wise, desire prophesy, but don't forbid the speaking in languages. Both are from God. Just use all the miracles in a decent and organized manner that will benefit the church and pursues agape love.

In Truth and Love.
 
Good points. However, I would disagree with the title, "Miracles Have Ceased". My belief is that God is very subtle. He's not in the "flashy" gifts - especially as seen on TV ? but He still works quietly through gifts such as serving, teaching, encouraging, sharing, leading and helping (Rom 12:7,8).

--Rich
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RiJoRi said:
Good points. However, I would disagree with the title, "Miracles Have Ceased". My belief is that God is very subtle. He's not in the "flashy" gifts - especially as seen on TV ? but He still works quietly through gifts such as serving, teaching, encouraging, sharing, leading and helping (Rom 12:7,8).

--Rich
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I'm a Physicist. Gotta have evidence. But I'm glad you liked the posts. :)
 
Kade Rystalmane said:
I'm a Physicist. Gotta have evidence. But I'm glad you liked the posts. :)
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Evidence can be tricky. What kind of evidence would be acceptable? (I'm asking as an engineer - you know, the guys who build what you guys dream of? :D {actually, I'm a software engineer...})

Then again, testimonies count as evidence in a court of law - I think. (A long time since I saw Perry Mason!)

--Rich
 
RiJoRi said:
Evidence can be tricky. What kind of evidence would be acceptable? (I'm asking as an engineer - you know, the guys who build what you guys dream of? :D {actually, I'm a software engineer...})

Then again, testimonies count as evidence in a court of law - I think. (A long time since I saw Perry Mason!)

--Rich
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Id accept seeing the supernatural event personally.
 
Kade Rystalmane said:
I'd accept seeing the supernatural event personally.
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Oh, then you aren't a Christian? (I don't think you're that old!) Weren't no witnesses to the Resurrection, anyway. Just its after-effects.

Also, how could you know that you weren't hallucinating or something when you saw that event? (Have you ever read "That Hideous Strength" by C. S. Lewis? I'm thinking of the McPhee character. ?)

(parenthetically),
--Rich
 
RiJoRi said:
Oh, then you aren't a Christian? (I don't think you're that old!) Weren't no witnesses to the Resurrection, anyway. Just its after-effects.
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I get your point, but I believe the Bible to be True. So I believe the miracles recorded in it happened. We can talk about that if you want.

What I would need to see is modern miracles since I believe the Bible says they ceased when the Bible was completed. :)
RiJoRi said:
Also, how could you know that you weren't hallucinating or something when you saw that event? (Have you ever read "That Hideous Strength" by C. S. Lewis? I'm thinking of the McPhee character. ?)

(parenthetically),
--Rich
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No, but I might check it out.

I would know I'm not hallucinating same way I know I'm not now.

Anyway, I better get going. My Wookiee friend is complaining about the tree in our back yard being too small again.. ttyl ;)

In Truth and Love.
 
Kade Rystalmane said:

1 Corinthians 12-14 – Miracles: Distribution, Duration, and Proper Use​

As Paul tends to write in what has been divided into three chapter arcs, and this one is particularly pronounced, I wanted to handle all three of these chapters together in a single post.

I also see a lot of confusion about miracles in the world today about miracles. A lot of folks still think they have the ability to perform these miracles (or that God performs them through them as we see recorded throughout the NT). So I will spend some significant time, not only on the apocalyptic material in these three chapters, but addressing miracles accurately.

1 Corinthians 12 – Distribution of Miracles ​

Paul transitions from speaking about the Lord’s Supper to talking about “spiritual gifts”, i.e. what we call miracles. Just a quick note about miracles: a miracle as used in scripture is a supernatural act of God used for the express purpose of confirming that whatever is being spoken is from God (Mark 16:20; Heb. 2:3-4). E.g. birth is not a miracle, it is a natural process.

1 Corinthians 12:1-3​

“1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”

In this transition, Paul lays out a foundation for why he is writing. These Christians are largely Gentile in origin and pagan in their former lives. Their understanding of miracles is based on the baggage they bring with them from their former pagan religions. [Much like folks today who bring baggage with them from the denominations and so their understanding of miracles is in error.]

He then writes words that John parallels in his smaller letters, a basic litmus test for determining who is from God and who not. Judiazers would be wont to call Jesus accursed and would not recognize Him as the Lord. Pagan idolaters as well. If at the very least someone comes along and says Jesus is accursed or will not acknowledge Him as God, that person is not to be listened to no matter what miracles they appear to perform. Remember, Simon the Sorcerer (Acts 8) deceived a lot of people by his magic tricks. When Peter and John performed real wonders, Simon even recognized the power and obeyed the gospel. However, he still had some baggage (Acts 8:18-24).

This is not the end all test, however, because there will certainly be folks who acknowledge Jesus is Lord, even demons (Mark 5:2-7). The whole Bible provides the ultimate litmus test for us to try the spirits whether they be of God (1 John 4:1)

1 Corinthians 12:4-11

“Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.”

God is not a respecter of individuals (Acts 10:34). However, He understands that individuals are different, have different needs and talents. He provided in this time of miracles according to the needs of the church and the individuals. Paul explains here that the miracles are divvied up as God sees fit for the health of the whole church/body.

1 Corinthians 12:12-26​

“12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked. 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.”

This is an expansion on the thought that God nurtures the body as necessary, knowing that the body has different members with different needs and functions. We can’t all be preachers or even teachers. We can’t all be elders or apostles (which office no longer even exists). Each role exists “that the members should have the same care one for another”. In the same manner, each miracle was given to different individuals to best suit the congregation in which they were a member.

An important note, though. With regard to immersion into Christ: I did a long study on Romans 6 and the type of immersion that saves us. Eph. 4 teaches that there is only one Christian immersion by the time Paul writes the letter, meaning that any others pertaining to becoming a Christian are gone. I wrote how in Romans 6, this immersion was a command to be obeyed and so how this could not be immersion in the Holy Spirit since no one can obey the command. Here in 12:13 we see “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” This is not denoting the element we are surrounded by when we are immersed. It is speaking of the Holy Spirit as the immerse, ultimately the one who does the immersing if it is done right because the immersing is done according to the Word which the Holy Spirit inspired to be written. This verse is echoed in Eph. 5:26.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31​

“Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.”

Paul then compares the diversity of gifts to the diversity of offices. He teaches that it is okay to desire the best gifts, so long as they understand what the best gifts are (which are those that edify the church rather than aggrandize self).

However, at the very end of this thought, Paul says he is going to show them a more excellent way. A more excellent way than what the miracles can achieve. A way measured by the complete standard that is the revealed Word of God.
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Have you ever noticed that most quote the ways of Paul instead of the ways of Jesus in holiness?

Most do not Believe Jesus at all in who he said he was in the Father, they believe what someone else says about him such as Paul.

Here is who Jesus Said he was in his God who sent him. Most actually cal it a lie and falsely accuse Jesus of being God instead of who Jesus Said he was in his God who sent him.

Ill ask a question. Who do you say it is Jesus referred when he made these remarks?

Below is exactly why I follow the ways of Jesus instead of another opinions such as Pauls.

John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
 
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