Monty Hall's Production Crew: Arminian or Calvinist? Decision versus Outcome

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
There have been some interesting comments on this subject in that other thread, but I think we need to get something basic straight. For us Christians at least, just because an OUTCOME might be predetermined, that does not mean that free will is not involved. This is pretty elementary, so forgive me for even bringing it up.

Suppose Monty Hall gives you three doors to choose from, and tells you that one which if opened will reveal a new car, and two will reveal a toaster. You didn't know this but behind Door#1 is the car and behind Doors#2 and #3 are the toaster. You pick Door#1. Monty's crew then quickly substitutes Door#2's toaster for Door#1's car. Monty opens Door#1 and reveals a toaster.

Did you freely choose the toaster? The game was rigged because the outcome was predetermined. But still, the freedom with which you picked Door#1 was not impacted by the maneuvered outcome.

Divine predetermination does not negate the reality of free will. God works all things (i.e.maneuvers them) for our good. Our free will is intact.

The freedom of our acts are too passionately experienced to be waived away with philosophical sophistry.

Hard core Calvinists as well as hard atheistic materialists freely choose to freely espouse their polemics against free will.
 
There have been some interesting comments on this subject in that other thread, but I think we need to get something basic straight. For us Christians at least, just because an OUTCOME might be predetermined, that does not mean that free will is not involved. This is pretty elementary, so forgive me for even bringing it up.

Suppose Monty Hall gives you three doors to choose from, and tells you that one which if opened will reveal a new car, and two will reveal a toaster. You didn't know this but behind Door#1 is the car and behind Doors#2 and #3 are the toaster. You pick Door#1. Monty's crew then quickly substitutes Door#2's toaster for Door#1's car. Monty opens Door#1 and reveals a toaster.

Did you freely choose the toaster? The game was rigged because the outcome was predetermined. But still, the freedom with which you picked Door#1 was not impacted by the maneuvered outcome.

Divine predetermination does not negate the reality of free will. God works all things (i.e.maneuvers them) for our good. Our free will is intact.

The freedom of our acts are too passionately experienced to be waived away with philosophical sophistry.

Hard core Calvinists as well as hard atheistic materialists freely choose to freely espouse their polemics against free will.
So what is the point of "free will" if God is going to manipulate the consequences of our actions? Is it just to make us feel good?
The passion of your experience isn't a measure of the freedom of your acts just as the certitude with which you hold an idea doesn't make it true.
 
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Did you freely choose the toaster?
No.
You chose Door 1, not the toaster.
Did you freely choose the toaster? The game was rigged because the outcome was predetermined. But still, the freedom with which you picked Door#1 was not impacted by the maneuvered outcome.
Let's change the game slightly:

you are given the three doors - two have toasters, and one has the car, and your first choice stands - whatever is behind the first door, you take home with you.

You pick Door #1, and get a toaster. Subsequently, you discover that the car had been behind that door, but the crew switched it after you chose.

Would you be outraged, and deem the game rigged and unfair?

If so, why are people that say the same about your god's behaviour, unreasonable?
 
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So what is the point of "free will" if God is going to manipulate the consequences of our actions? Is it just to make us feel good?

ABSOLUTELY! Freedom makes us feel good. That's why people are willing to die for it. Freedom of speech, freedom to love, freedom to allow God to "manipulate" the outcome of our screwed up free will actions for our good.

The passion of your experience isn't a measure of the freedom of your acts....

No one said it's a "measure." It's a confirmation. Robots have NO passion. None whatsoever.
 
No.
You chose Door 1, not the toaster.

Could you repeat that, please? You WHAT? You "CHOSE" Door#1? Correct. It was NOT chosen for you.

Let's change the game slightly:

you are given the three doors - two have toasters, and one has the car,

So far, you haven't changed a thing.

and your first choice stands - whatever is behind the first door, you take home with you.

You pick Door #1, and get a toaster. Subsequently, you discover that the car had been behind that door, but the crew switched it after you chose.

Would you be outraged, and deem the game rigged and unfair?

Yep. I sure would. And ................?

If so, why are people that say the same about your god's behaviour, unreasonable?

Because God doesn't work to rip us off. Just the opposite (See, Romans 8:28) Sheesh, man. It was an analogy, not an equation. My example could just as well have made the switcheroo beneficial for the contestant, and have had the crew substitute the car for the original toaster choice. You obviously did not comprehend the analogy. Whether the manipulation is virtuous or diabolical does not impact the free will choice.
 
Whether the manipulation is virtuous or diabolical does not impact the free will choice.
So far you have argued that the suffering that exists in the world is justified by, and caused directly and indirectly by, the necessity for humans to have free will.

You have also argued that the free will of humans is manipulated by God, but that this doesn't matter, since we cannot detect the manipulation.

Given this, why should I worship your God? Out of fear perhaps? Certainly, not out of love, since a more unlovable deity would be hard to imagine.
 
So far you have argued that the suffering that exists in the world is justified by, and caused directly and indirectly by, the necessity for humans to have free will.

Correct.

You have also argued that the free will of humans is manipulated by God,

WRONG! Not the free will, but the OUTCOME of our free will choices. See Romans 8:28.

Given this, why should I worship your God?

Because He alone is worthy.

Out of fear perhaps?

Perfect love casts out all fear.

Certainly, not out of love, since a more unlovable deity would be hard to imagine.

You have a weak imagination.
 
Correct.



WRONG! Not the free will, but the OUTCOME of our free will choices. See Romans 8:28.



Because He alone is worthy.



Perfect love casts out all fear.



You have a weak imagination.
So, just to be clear, all the suffering and evil in the world is an outcome of human free will. God manipulates the outcome of human free will.

'Nuff said.
 
I'd be glad to. They are the ones who most need to hear about His amazing grace, having "rigged" the entire cosmos in our favor.
If even one person ends up in hell, his rigging is ineffectual.
Sure does. What's the color of Love?
Your god rigs the consequences of our choices in such a way that the consequence of many people's choices, lands them in hell.

You should consider that to be immoral, on his part.
 
If even one person ends up in hell, his rigging is ineffectual.

Wrong. He "rigged" our rescue from hell at Calvary.

Your god rigs the consequences of our choices in such a way that the consequence of many people's choices, lands them in hell.

Wrong. Just the opposite. He SAVES us from hell.

You should consider that to be immoral, on his part.

I won't be taking your advice on that.
 
Truer words were never typed.



Correct. That was a secondary gist of my OP.



Correct.
At least you are honest. Unlike your God, who remains as unlovable and as unworthy of worship as ever. And, in my opinion, therefore as illusory as ever.
 
So, just to be clear, all the suffering and evil in the world is an outcome of human free will. God manipulates the outcome of human free will.

'Nuff said.
I would disagree with Stiggy that the abuse of free will is the only cause of evil in the world. I would add that Satan and the other fallen angels fall into that category and play a major role in all evil in this world.
 
I would disagree with Stiggy that the abuse of free will is the only cause of evil in the world. I would add that Satan and the other fallen angels fall into that category and play a major role in all evil in this world.
Okay. Where do these malignant forces originate from?
 
No. He IS Love, and thus not only the antithesis of unlovable, but thus highly worthy of worship.
You are using a non standard definition of love. Manipulating the outcomes of decisions so that some humans suffer and others go to hell, is not my idea of love.
 
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