stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
A truly asinine comment. So Jews in concentration camps who KNEW they were being led to the gas chamber to die paid a "small price" for their Jewishness?
Monty Hall's Production Crew: Arminian or Calvinist? Decision versus Outcome
- Thread starter stiggy wiggy
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A truly asinine comment. So Jews in concentration camps who KNEW they were being led to the gas chamber to die paid a "small price" for their Jewishness?
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
They didn't know they were going to get an eternal life, ruling at Yahweh's right hand.
It’s not about the price one would pay at an infinitesimally small point in eternal time. It’s more the value realized for the price paid. Christianity’s value is not sufficient to cover the need in that what Christians call an “ultimate” sacrifice for the entire world’s salvation isn’t realized. Christians may claim that is the individuals fault somehow, which only indicates that the sacrifice did not cover the need of individuals to recognize it or realize it.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
So according to you, any Jew in a concentration camp who believed he or she would be resurrected
to eternal life and was being led to the gas chamber to die, would be paying a "small price" for his or her Jewishness.
As a Nazi Commandant, you'd be able to do your job with little guilt.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Ah, so you changed your mind. It's no longer about the price, it's about the value.
And yet it is: I Tim 4:10.
The Jews did not see their purpose was to die as Jesus did, as what his purpose was.
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Yes... Because once considered in the way you did given the infinitesimally small time it takes to drown a baby compared to the eternity they will enjoy, all sacrifices such as those reach the same minimal value as you approach infinity. It’s just math.
That’s actually a good verse. I like it. So I’m not to worry over the disposition of my, or any, soul in any system of belief or non-belief.
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stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
So explain how that somehow lessens the impact of dying so as to cheapen it.
I see. Math. So the "value" of a life is a function of the longevity of suffering versus the longevity of not suffering. Can you provide the mathematical formula for that?
I do. Too many souls suffer while alive.
I don’t believe I ever used the term “cheapen”.
Yes: x / ((x+1) ➡
) where x = the amount of finite suffering and the denominator moves from day 1 of that suffering ending to .Agreed. But my comment was about eternal dispositions, not finite ones.
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stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
If you declare the value of something to be smaller than most people give it, you are cheapening it.
Yes: x / ((x+1) ➡
So if you were a Nazi Commandant in a concentration camp, you would be able to glance at that convenient homemade formula to assuage any sense of guilt you might have in sending a Jew who believed in eternal life to the gas chamber, right?
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
The question is, if you thought that a crucifixion would buy you an eternity of ruling the universe, would you do it?I don’t believe I ever used the term “cheapen”.
Yes: x / ((x+1) ➡
Agreed. But my comment was about eternal dispositions, not finite ones.
I would.
In a heartbeat.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
So did Jesus. Hebrews 12:2:
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
So what's your point?
treeplanter
Well-known member
No, I won't
I'm not going to allow you, as per your usual tactic, to steer the ship away from the salient point only to wreck upon reef after reef of irrelevant minutiae
We are not free, per the Christian narrative, to choose to live our lives in complete and total accordance with God's directives
Therefore, per the Christian conceptualization, we do not possess free will
The onus is on you to explain how our ability to choose whether or not to sin on an individual, case by case basis, amounts to a free will when we are, by virtue of being inevitably compelled to sin at least once, utterly incapable, from birth, of sinlessness
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Because you can't, so without reading further in this post of yours and without repeating my same points of refutation, just to be ignored again, I will rerun my previous reply. Here you go:
treeplanter said:
No. Want me to prove it? Name one thing you are physically capable of doing, that you can't do. Can't do it, can ya?
Correct. But what's that have to do with your ability to fart but not fly. See above.
Yes. The ability, not the inclination.
For that matter, you're not free to "choose a life" of never breathing. Or never eating. That hardly means you have no free will. You should have used your free will to not type that asinine comment
More stupidity. You could just have stupidly typed: "We are all eaters by dint of failing to live without eating." No, we are all eaters because we eat. Likewise we are all sinners because we sin.
Heh, name one sin God caused you to commit.
Now, instead of pulling your usual method of just starting a new paragraph and ignoring everything I said while launching out to repeat your failed points, respond to each and every thing I said, please.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Because you can't, so without reading further in this post of yours and without repeating my same points of refutation, just to be ignored again, I will rerun my previous reply. Here you go:
treeplanter said:
No. Want me to prove it? Name one thing you are physically capable of doing, that you can't do. Can't do it, can ya?
Correct. But what's that have to do with your ability to fart but not fly. See above.
Yes. The ability, not the inclination.
For that matter, you're not free to "choose a life" of never breathing. Or never eating. That hardly means you have no free will. You should have used your free will to not type that asinine comment
More stupidity. You could just have stupidly typed: "We are all eaters by dint of failing to live without eating." No, we are all eaters because we eat. Likewise we are all sinners because we sin.
Heh, name one sin God caused you to commit.
Now, instead of pulling your usual method of just starting a new paragraph and ignoring everything I said while launching out to repeat your failed points, respond to each and every thing I said, please.
treeplanter
Well-known member
Yep, I know how that goes!
I fired the 1st volley with:
God made it impossible for us to live perfectly sinless lives, therefore, we, per the Christian conceptualization, have no free will
You ignored it and responded, instead, with drivel like:
"Heh, name one sin God caused you to commit"
And then have the audacity to accuse me of your own shortcoming...
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
No, I didn't. In fact, I answered it in depth, as you can see from my previous reply.
Why do you involve yourself in a thread, knowing that you are impotent at being able to defend your position? For example, I refuted your idiotic contention that the fact that no one is able to live a sinless life means no free will by giving the counter example of how not being able to live without ever eating or ever breathing obviously does not mean no free will. You couldn't refute that, so you just ignored it and launched into your rerun.
If you're not mentally equipped to handle back and forth adult discussions, why not just stay away from discussion boards and go watch F Troop or something?
treeplanter
Well-known member
Idiotic!
Eating and breathing are not now, and never were, matters of free will choice
It is a biological, physiological, involuntary bodily FACT that human beings, from the dawn of time, have required both food and air in order to sustain life
Sin is something else entirely
Sin is NOT an inherently biological/physiological/natural response
Sin is comprised of willful actions
Sin, specifically, is an action of the human will that goes against the will of God
{a will that is NOT free, per the Christian conceptualization, given that the will of every man is INEVITABLY COMPELLED to, at least once, choose to transgress against God}
Your attempt to equate eating {a necessity of life} with taking the Lord's name in vain {a sin} is laughable!
The FACT that you are able to go through life without blaspheming, but not without eating, is sufficient proof of this
Your attempt to equate breathing {a necessity of life} with committing murder {a sin} is laughable
The FACT that you are able to go through life without murdering, but not without breathing, is sufficient proof of this
You suck at apologetics almost as much as F Troop sucks as a series...
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stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
WHAT? Of COURSE they are. I can use my free will to either breathe or hold my breath. I can freely gobble up an apple pie or fast for a week.
EXACTLY! Let me dumb it down to your level. I'll put it in bold, and you can print it out and refer to it any time you're tempted to make the same boneheaded mistake. Ready:
1. Sin is an act of free will.
2. Eating and breathing are acts of free will.
3. No one can make it through life without sinning.
4. No one can make it through life without eating and breathing.
5. Yet we can choose not to breathe (hold our breath) and not to eat (fast) at specific times.
6. LIKEWISE WE CAN CHOOSE NOT TO SIN AT SPECIFIC TIMES.
So are eating and breathing.
Are you intentionally trying to blow your own argument out of the water?
So are eating and breathing.
Congratulations!
No one said that people could not go through life without blaspheming or murdering. Your comments above indicate that you stupidly think murder and blasphemy are the only sins.
Looks like it's time for another bold-font comment:
No one besides God Incarnate ever has or ever will live a life never having sinned.
Says the guy who just got his atheistic apologetic posterior handed to him on a silver platter.
treeplanter
Well-known member
Yes, sin is an act of free will
Sinlessness, however, is not
You are free, here and there, to sin or not to sin countless times throughout life
You are not free, however, to live a life of perfect sinlessness
It is on this basis that Christianity, despite claims to the contrary, denies the existence of free will
Yep, just like I have been saying all along - you can choose between sinning and not sinning countless times throughout your life
What you cannot do, however, is choose to live a life of perfect sinlessness
God took that choice away from you
God made it so that each and every one of us are inevitably compelled to sin at least once
God made it so that we are in need of Jesus Christ
God stole our free will
{per the Christian conceptualization}
The inability to be sinless IS the negation of free will, stiggy!