Monty Hall's Production Crew: Arminian or Calvinist? Decision versus Outcome

[treeplanter]

He's already put me in those states. Not by my free will, but by His will.

EXACTLY!

Not by YOUR choice
By HIS!

Hence the absence of a free will


For once, stiggy, deal with what I am actually saying!
Deal with the issue at hand instead of trying to obfuscate by means of zeroing in on the trivialities

The forest, stigs, not the trees...

 

[stiggy wiggy]

EXACTLY!

Not by YOUR choice
By HIS!

EXACTLY! Amen even. His grace is unmerited. For a believer in Christianity you sure are dumb on the subject of free will. I guess I should just be grateful that you are a Christian.

[quote[Hence the absence of a free will[/quote]

You're just not going to be able to get around this:

1. Individual sins are free will acts. (YOUR words, verbatim)
2. We all commit individual sins.
3. THEREFORE WE HAVE FREE WILL!

 

[treeplanter]

EXACTLY! Amen even. His grace is unmerited. For a believer in Christianity you sure are dumb on the subject of free will. I guess I should just be grateful that you are a Christian.

[quote[Hence the absence of a free will

You are NOT free to live a life of sinlessness
{i.e. you cannot choose to be 'good enough' on your own merit}

Sorry, stigs, but there just isn't any way around it

You do not, within the Christian conceptualization, have free will

 

[stiggy wiggy]

You do not, within the Christian conceptualization, have free will

Sorry pal, but all three of these syllogistic points are within the "Christian conceptualization:"

1. Individual sins are free will acts. (YOUR words, verbatim)
2. We all commit individual sins.
3. THEREFORE WE HAVE FREE WILL!

Now, instead of you once again puking out your thoroughly defeated talking points for the umpteenth time, answer these questions, yes or no:

Do you agree with 1 above? No wait. You HAVE to. You typed them.

OK, now yes or no, do you agree with 2 above? Do we all commit individual sins, yes or no?

If no, name someone who has never done anything wrong. If yes, do you deny the elementary logic that even a six year-old could understand, that 3 follows logically from 1 and 2?

[Good grief, people, is this guy just yanking my chain, PRETENDING to be stupid?]

 

[JAG]

So what is the point of "free will" if God is going to manipulate the consequences of our actions? Is it just to make us feel good?
The passion of your experience isn't a measure of the freedom of your acts just as the certitude with which you hold an idea doesn't make it true.

Free Will is as real as it gets.
And so is the Sovereign Predestination of God.

BOTH doctrines are taught clearly from Genesis to Revelation but
nowhere does God in the Bible attempt to reconcile these two doctrines.

"The secret things belong to God" Deut 29:29

And I believe the reason God does not attempt to reconcile them is because
we humans, in our present fallen sinful befuddled condition, are incapable
of understanding the harmonization of these two clear Biblical trtuhs.

Nonetheless . . .

Both or 100% true.

It is true to say, that looking at it from your human viewpoint: Your personal
Free Will decisions will determine your eternal destiny.

And THAT is all you need to know. You don't need to have all the mysteries of
the Bible explained to you (none of us do) -- all you need to know is that:
(1) You are lost
(2) You need to be saved
(3) You can be saved.
(4) You can have eternal life.
(5) You do not have to die ie you do not have to experience John 3:16's "perish"
(6) All you have to do is STOP demanding that God do it your way.

What does that mean? It means that God says you must come to Him in childlike FAITH.
But YOU say NO NO NO I want empirical evidence before I will believe.

It is not in your best interest to take that approach -- it will eventually lead to your destruction.

Best

JAG

[]

 

[JAG]

You are NOT free to live a life of sinlessness
{i.e. you cannot choose to be 'good enough' on your own merit}

Sorry, stigs, but there just isn't any way around it

You do not, within the Christian conceptualization, have free will

"stop doing wrong.
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.

“Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land;
but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
Isaiah 1:17-20
We don't need to "get philosophical."
We can keep it down to earth -- just plain ole country boys talk'n.
"If I had a province to punish, I would let it be governed
by philosophers."____Frederick the Great

The phrase "If you are willing" is the Christian conceptualization of Free Will.

And then there is Joshua's . . .

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
Joshus :24:15

JAG

[]

 

[treeplanter]

"stop doing wrong.
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.

“Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land;
but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
Isaiah 1:17-20
We don't need to "get philosophical."
We can keep it down to earth -- just plain ole country boys talk'n.
"If I had a province to punish, I would let it be governed
by philosophers."____Frederick the Great

The phrase "If you are willing" is the Christian conceptualization of Free Will.

And then there is Joshua's . . .

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
Joshus :24:15

JAG

[]

Are you able to choose to be, on your own and through your own actions, 'good enough' to warrant eternal life
or
is eternal life available ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ?

If your answer is the latter
{and I know it is}
then you DO NOT, within the Christian conceptualization, possess free will

 

[JAG]

Are you able to choose to be, on your own and through your own actions, 'good enough' to warrant eternal life
or
is eternal life available ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ?

If your answer is the latter
{and I know it is}
then you DO NOT, within the Christian conceptualization, possess free will

Yes my position is the latter.

But . . .

It is not logically compelling that you draw the conclusion that you are drawing.

Rather we can speak the truth on this issue, and here tis:

It is impossible for humans to reconcile these two Biblical truths:

(1) God is absolute Sovereign over the affairs of men and He has a predestined plan
that He is working out that even includes the small details of people's lives.

(2) Humans have Free Will and that Free Will is as real as it gets, Moreover, what
you decide to do will determine your eternal destiny -- looking at it from the
human point of view.

Here is how the great and mighty Westminster Confession puts it:

Read this carefully.

It is the Christian position on the Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of mankind
and it is well thought out.

You will learn good things. ( I know you like to learn).

________________________________________________________________________________________________



I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.


II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,a yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.b

a. 1 Sam 23:11-12; Mat 11:21, 23; Acts 15:18. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16, 18.


III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angelsa are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.b

a. Mat 25:41; 1 Tim 5:21. • b. Prov 16:4; Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6.


IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.a

a. John 13:18; 2 Tim 2:19.


V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory,a out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;b and all to the praise of his glorious grace.c

a. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:4, 9, 11; 1 Thes 5:9; 2 Tim 1:9. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16; Eph 1:4, 9. • c. Eph 1:6, 12.


VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto.a Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,b are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified,c and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.d Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.e

a. Eph 1:4-5; Eph 2:10; 2 Thes 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2. • b. 1 Thes 5:9-10; Titus 2:14. • c. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:5; 2 Thes 2:13. • d. 1 Pet 1:5. • e. John 6:64-65; 8:47; 10:26; 17:9; Rom 8:28-39; 1 John 2:19.


VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.a

a. Mat 11:25-26; Rom 9:17-18, 21-22; 2 Tim 2:19-20; 1 Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4.


VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,a that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.b So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;c and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.d

a. Deut 29:29; Rom 9:20. • b. 2 Pet 1:10. • c. Rom 11:33; Eph 1:6. • d. Luke 10:20; Rom 8:33; 11:5-6, 20; 2 Pet 1:10.

Best

JAG

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